Author Topic: 2022 F2 World Championships (Read 11626 times)

BillLee · « **on:** May 24, 2021, 02:31:31 PM »

Finally getting some progress, AMA has issued some direction:

=====================================================================
From: Rich Hanson, AMA President and chairman of the AMA FAI Executive Committee:

All,

The recent Covid 19 pandemic has created an unprecedented impact on our FAI World Championship and World Cup program. All of the WC events planned for 2020 were canceled due to the travel restrictions imposed by the pandemic. Most of these events were postponed to the off year 2021. However, the pandemic has persisted beyond 2020 and most of the events scheduled in 2021 have now been cancelled.

Cancelling/postponing the 2020 events two years in a row pushes us into the next cycle of WC events for 2022. Unless FAI spaces out the upcoming 2022 events, this effectively eliminates the 2020 cycle completely. Such an impact on the FAI WC events was never anticipated and looking to the FAI Sporting Code and AMA’s FAI Blue Book we find there are no policies, procedures or guidelines for handling the team selection process under these circumstances.

I’ve asked AMA’s FAI Committee to resolve this issue, establish policy to address such an occurrence in the future, and to update the Blue Book as needed. However, this does not address our current dilemma regarding the 2020 F2 World Championships.

The FAI CIAM has scheduled the 2022 F2 WC to be held August 8, 2022, in Warsaw Poland. Poland was awarded the event as they were the existing host for the 2020 event and there were no other bids for the 2022 WC. However, the CIAM has stated the 2022 event is a new cycle WC event and not a postponement of the 2020 event.

So where does this leave us…? The team selection process is really up to the NAC (AMA). Unfortunately, there is no completely fair way of dealing with this issue. We could either redesignate the existing 2020 team to be the 2022 team. or hold new team selections to select a new team. If we hold new team selections this means the team selected in 2019 well not have been given the opportunity to complete. However, If we designate the 2020 team to compete in 2022, this means we will not hold F2 team selections for four years and consequently deprive other competitors the opportunity of vying for the team

In the spirit of ensuring we have the best and most competitive team possible, I am directing we hold new team selections for the 2022 F2 Team USA. This will allow all interested competitors to compete for the team, those that have been waiting their opportunity in the next selection process as well as those existing team members wishing to compete and retain their position.

I know there may be compelling reason for exceptions to this policy. If you wish an exception be considered, please submit a request directly to me by the end of the week. I’ll review such requests and refer them to the AMA Executive Council for resolution.

Best regards to all… Stay safe/well,

Rich Hanson, President
Academy of Model Aeronautics
(888) 899-3548
=====================================================================

As you can see from this directive, each of the four F2 disciplines is charged with selecting a team for the 2022 F2 World Championships. Whichever discipline you are part of, you can contact your Team Selection Committee representative to voice opinions.

https://www.modelaircraft.org/world-championships/team/team-selection-committees

Regards,

Bill Lee

Howard Rush · « **Reply #1 on:** May 24, 2021, 04:19:56 PM »

I voiced my opinion to my TSC representative. To wit, those people who made the team are being screwed. We worked hard to perform well enough to qualify for the US team. We have invested time and money in specialized models and travel, to be outlobbied by losers.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #2 on:** May 24, 2021, 04:48:12 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on May 24, 2021, 04:19:56 PM

I voiced my opinion to my TSC representative. To wit, those people who made the team are being screwed. We worked hard to perform well enough to qualify for the US team. We have invested time and money in specialized models and travel, to be outlobbied by losers.

I am not sure who is lobbying for this, but I agree with you that we should just go with the guys who already made it, and not have new team trials for it. For stunt, I think we can control the situation by everyone who is not a team member agreeing, and telling the AMA, that we decline to attend any such team trials, and that they will only have 3 entrants, so why bother having it at all.

Dave T. - did anyone at AMA ask you about this? Because I will jump to the conclusion that many/most/all of the potential competitors would probably agree with the existing team members forming the next team. If someone else feels differently, then, we ought to pay attention to the reasoning, but I am curious what it might be.

Brett

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #3 on:** May 24, 2021, 05:35:00 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on May 24, 2021, 04:48:12 PM

I am not sure who is lobbying for this, but I agree with you that we should just go with the guys who already made it, and not have new team trials for it. For stunt, I think we can control the situation by everyone who is not a team member agreeing, and telling the AMA, that we decline to attend any such team trials, and that they will only have 3 entrants, so why bother having it at all.

Dave T. - did anyone at AMA ask you about this? Because I will jump to the conclusion that many/most/all of the potential competitors would probably agree with the existing team members forming the next team. If someone else feels differently, then, we ought to pay attention to the reasoning, but I am curious what it might be.

Brett

No Brett nobody at AMA said anything to me. Actually though I'd think this more something that would be directed to Randy and the Team Committee, which it was, at least in they got notified before everyone else. FAI and PAMPA are sort of two separate worlds. My personal involvement with the FAI team program is in no way connected to PAMPA. I know the Covid issue put the whole World program into a mess that nobody could have anticipated. I didn't make the team last time but if I did I'd be VERY disappointed right now. Before all this happened I very much looked forward to taking another crack at it for 2022 (likely my last try due to work retirement). It's sad if it happened this way though.

Dave

Joseph Daly · « **Reply #4 on:** May 24, 2021, 06:35:15 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 24, 2021, 04:57:41 PM

Howard, do you remember who the Jr. team member was ?

Randy Smith

Randy - the jr member is Steven Daly
Thanks
Joe

Paul Walker · « **Reply #5 on:** May 24, 2021, 09:48:43 PM »

Will Steven still meet the age requirements in 2022?

If so, he should go.

However the FAI should make a special case to allow 2 Juniors to attend. The one from the 20 team and another for the 22 team. This could be determined at the Nats who the 22 team Junior member would be. This is the only fair way to deal with the age restrictions on Junior pilots.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #6 on:** May 25, 2021, 04:27:45 AM »

This certainly does suck for our Team members. I understand what the AMA is doing, and why, but it still isn't fair to the 2020 team. I have no objection to the same guys representing us in 2022, but if the AMA is going to insist on a new team Trials, I think the 2020 team should get free entry into the event. I know the $100 entry fee is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of traveling to and from the TT, but it would help a little. What really stinks is, the AMA decides how much money each team will get based on two factors. Team trial attendance, and team placement at the previous competition. If we only have a 4 person team Trials, that will "look" bad on the books, and could hurt the next team.

Derek

Joseph Daly · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2021, 04:44:20 AM »

Quote from: Paul Walker on May 24, 2021, 09:48:43 PM

Will Steven still meet the age requirements in 2022?

If so, he should go.

However the FAI should make a special case to allow 2 Juniors to attend. The one from the 20 team and another for the 22 team. This could be determined at the Nats who the 22 team Junior member would be. This is the only fair way to deal with the age restrictions on Junior pilots.

Paul,
Yes he will still meet the age requirement.
Thanks
Joe

Brett Buck · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2021, 04:56:24 AM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on May 25, 2021, 04:27:45 AM

Team trial attendance, and team placement at the previous competition. If we only have a 4 person team Trials, that will "look" bad on the books, and could hurt the next team.

That's why I suggest telling them that ahead of time, and using that to influence Hanson to provide an exception.

Brett

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2021, 06:56:52 AM »

If the 2020 team still has the intent and will to compete in 2022, then that should weigh heavily on the decision. If a team member can not attend or wishes to not attend for any reason, then the alternate selection process should kick in or alternate members picked in some equitable way. It should be almost like 2020 never existed. Once the Covid crisis was underway full swing at this time last year, I think that should have been an almost default action. Freeze all the team members until the crisis subsides, then continue on as planned afterwards on the same schedule and it would also help put the World Championship cycle back in sync. I think it's worth it just to save the time, effort and expense of holding the team trials again. None of this is the current teams fault.
KEEP THE CURRENT TEAM!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

bob whitney · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2021, 09:19:33 AM »

I agree with Paul, a deserving JR could loose his only chance because of the AGE factor

yes the Nats could be used to pick #2

Derek Barry · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2021, 09:52:59 AM »

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. Let's say we all agree to keep the same team from 2020 for 2022, and that WC gets canceled. How long do we keep sending the 2020 team? 2024, 2026, 2028? The AMA made the only decision that is fair to future Team hopefuls.

Derek

Derek Barry · « **Reply #12 on:** May 25, 2021, 10:07:07 AM »

This would also be a great time (since the AMA is making changes to the blue book) to strike the rule stating we must use the FAI format to select our team. Then the team trials could happen simultaneously with the Nats. You're welcome.

Derek

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2021, 10:22:52 AM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on May 25, 2021, 09:52:59 AM

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. Let's say we all agree to keep the same team from 2020 for 2022, and that WC gets canceled. How long do we keep sending the 2020 team? 2024, 2026, 2028? The AMA made the only decision that is fair to future Team hopefuls.

Derek

In that case, it would be time to pick a new team. Too much water under the bridge by that time. Juniors would be 4 years older, other team members could have passed away or even left the hobby. If this were to come to pass, I think the previous team members should get a free entry, and any team selectee choosing not to re-enter should get their entry fees refunded from any previous efforts. Not getting to attend was not their fault.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2021, 11:14:10 AM »

I see the point of selecting a new team for some events but shouldn't that be the choice of governing body for that event, not some unilateral decision made without even consulting them? Our current team should be designated the "next" world championship team wherever and whenever it happens. If any of the members want to drop out then the alternate moves up. Being an alternate also means being prepared to go just like the team. I feel for the JR members if they age out before getting to go. I have different view of the fairness of that. The extra age really does change things. In your late teens you are progressing in skill and reasoning faster than any other part of your life. It wouldn't be fair to the other countries unless all did it and that would require the FAI to change their age guidelines for this event only.

If we are forced to hold another trials, I would not want to be that flier who unseated a current team member.

Ken

dale gleason · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2021, 03:29:00 PM »

I am staying out of flying in a bogus team trial.
Don't want to unseat a present team member!!
It's the cowboy way, Podner!

dg

Political statement bought and paid for by a total stranger.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #16 on:** May 25, 2021, 04:50:00 PM »

Quote from: Dan McEntee on May 25, 2021, 10:22:52 AM

...I think the previous team members should get a free entry, and any team selectee choosing not to re-enter should get their entry fees refunded from any previous efforts.

Nice gesture, but at least three of the stunt team members have each already spent more than the total of everybody's entry fees on tickets and equipment.

RandySmith · « **Reply #17 on:** May 25, 2021, 06:53:21 PM »

Hi Everyone

I have spoke with the team, and also have sent a letter/email to all the Representatives of the TSC. Please contact your rep about this ASAP, and reference my email to them. We must respond to the AMA before Friday to get this resolved.
At this point The entire 2020 Team wishes to go, and has invested a huge amount, of time and money into that endeavour

I will try to keep anyone who has an interest up to date

Regards
Randy Smith TSC Chairman

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2021, 06:54:13 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on May 25, 2021, 04:50:00 PM

Nice gesture, but at least three of the stunt team members have each already spent more than the total of everybody's entry fees on tickets and equipment.

I'm aware of that, but I would not think that there would be a snowball's chance in hell they would re-emburse you for personal expenses to the trials. At least a free entry to a new team selection would be some recognition of what you had put out already. Again, not being able to compete was not your fault, and I think it's a crying shame you didn't get to go, and I think you should get to go next year. The question a was a hypothetical "what if" scenario, but the way things are in the world today, it might not be a bad idea to plan for that, since the whole situation is so unprecedented.

Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Steve Hines · « **Reply #19 on:** May 25, 2021, 09:08:45 PM »

It was canceled, there is no team. what are you going to do about the woman that can be on the team for 2022. I would like to know what the FAI has to say about this. remember when Samantha could not go to Australia because for she could not get off school and the when school she could the president could not appoint her because the FAI rules about the team trials. we have a few weeks to have it at the nats. There should have been plans for the team trials for the 2022 anyway. Sounds like the others are going to have new ones, should be the same rules for everyone.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #20 on:** May 25, 2021, 09:36:41 PM »

Quote from: Steve Hines on May 25, 2021, 09:08:45 PM

It was canceled, there is no team. what are you going to do about the woman that can be on the team for 2022. I would like to know what the FAI has to say about this. remember when Samantha could not go to Australia because for she could not get off school and the when school she could the president could not appoint her because the FAI rules about the team trials. we have a few weeks to have it at the nats. There should have been plans for the team trials for the 2022 anyway. Sounds like the others are going to have new ones, should be the same rules for everyone.

A woman could have gone to the team trials and made the team unopposed. None bothered to go. You are suggesting rather extreme affirmative action.

RandySmith · « **Reply #21 on:** May 25, 2021, 10:02:50 PM »

If there was to be an team trials this year, It will NOT be at the NATs

and the Rule about not appointing a members is NOT a FAI rule, it is a mandate by the AMA

in addition it is far from clear it was cancelled, as the FAI made an announcement that it IS postponed till 2022 !

This is something I have been trying to get absolutely clear for over 6 months now, and it is still NOT clear

and finally the FAI has nothing to say about "how" we pick the USA Team

Randy Smith

Steve Hines · « **Reply #22 on:** May 25, 2021, 10:33:36 PM »

Howard they said in 2022 there was going to be a female add to the team like the junior. Randy if it is postponed than than nothing should be done, the teams are the teams. If its a new cycle than there needs to be a team trial.

RandySmith · « **Reply #23 on:** May 25, 2021, 10:45:03 PM »

Quote from: Steve Hines on May 25, 2021, 10:33:36 PM

Howard they said in 2022 there was going to be a female add to the team like the junior. Randy if it is postponed than than nothing should be done, the teams are the teams. If its a new cycle than there needs to be a team trial.

Steve things are not as simple as you think they are, and things do not happen as you think they should many times, The World Cup, NOT the World Champs was cancelled for 2020

Randy

Steve Hines · « **Reply #24 on:** May 25, 2021, 11:17:58 PM »

should have said 2020

pmackenzie · « **Reply #25 on:** May 26, 2021, 09:06:38 PM »

I think the words chosen have less to do with dictionary definitions, and more to do with legal/contract ones.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #26 on:** May 27, 2021, 01:37:15 AM »

In the contest organizer's statement quoted above by Randy and Robby, items 1 and 2 say that the local organizer decided to postpone the 2021 world championships to 2022. He knows the meaning of “postpone”. It is the same word he used to postpone the 2020 world championships to 2021. As Robby noted, the FAI also lists the 2021 world championships as “postponed”: https://www.fai.org/page/ciam-events?upcoming=1&f%5B0%5D=fai_event_year%3A2021&f%5B1%5D=field_discipline_task_list_map%253Afield_sport%3A28&display=list .

Item 4 states that the 2021 Warsaw World Cup contest--not the world championships--has been canceled. Similarly, the 2020 Warsaw World Cup contest was canceled. We registered for the 2020 Warsaw World Cup, reregistered for the 2021 Warsaw World Cup, and must reregister again for the 2022 Warsaw World Cup. The organizer distinguishes between postponement and cancellation. He is following the precedent he set last year. The AMA is not following the precedent set by the AMA last year of keeping the existing team.

BillLee · « **Reply #27 on:** May 27, 2021, 07:43:10 AM »

Regardless of the words used ("postponed" or "canceled") by the FAI, the decision of how to select the U.S. team for any event is completely the responsibility of the U.S. NAC, i.e. AMA as delegated by the NAA. Given that, AMA has spoken in the words of the FAI Executive Committee, chaired by Rich Hanson, and which started this thread.

Simply stated:

New teams to be selected, or
Make a case for doing differently

All of the words spoken by the word lawyers above are of little consequence.

Here is the CIAM statement, approved for publication yesterday:

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""The Championships awarded to Poland in 2022 will be considered as a NEW event which is going to happen without the need to bid for this since the previously allocated event did not happen for Force Majeure reasons.

C.5.3.c ruling will apply reference previous World Champions.

C.5.1 A competitor is considered to be a junior up to and including the calendar year in which he attains the age of 21.

C.5.3.d and e) rules apply to a previous Junior World Champion

FAI Medical Commission-CIMP has a published dedicated document (FAI Guidance Protocol for Cov-19 events) which would apply at the time.

It is not CIAM responsibility to determine the method by which each NAC selects the National team.

A review of the Class 2 events will take place in June with a World Cup/International decision to be taken by both CIAM and the organisers""
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note:

the emphasis on "NEW"
no mention of "postponed" or "canceled"
Class 2 events are the World Cup events (Continental and World Championships are Class 1)

Bill

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #28 on:** May 27, 2021, 08:12:01 AM »

Well I think it would be pretty crappy of the AMA to tell the 2020 team members that have already put out significant expense and efforts to compete that they are just S.O.L. We are already well into 2021, still trying to pull together our NATS and still dealing with the lingering effects of the Covid crisis. Trying to squeeze in a Team Trials during such a time where travel is still a question mark for some and arranging man power is a definite issue does not make any sense. The feeling will be that this is not fair to anyone that wishes to compete for a spot on the team, but that does not compare to the expense and time of those that have already done the work and spent the money, which could never be recovered. The focus of "what is fair" as far as actions taken should be centered on the existing team as that will give the best chance for a USA Team to perform as best as possible. Taking into consideration the preparation and work that has already taken place, and eliminate any need for more work and expense to pick a new team, I think it's clear that moving forward with the current team is the best course of action. Any extra efforts should be concerning any need for picking alternates, and God forbid, what to do if the 2022 event runs into a similar circumstances. The most simple approach is to go with what we have and stand behind them.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #29 on:** May 27, 2021, 11:58:56 AM »

I would support a policy change that stated the the Tram Trials are picking the team for the NEXT WC, whenever that is. Shortly thereafter that WC we hold new trials to pick a new team. We should also pick/designate more alternates. I take it from the postings here that we as a group think that the current team is the team. I realize it is a small sample but I think anyone really opposing it would have spoken up by now.

Whatever is decided we should do it quickly so that our team members are not left hanging.

Ken

Paul Walker · « **Reply #30 on:** May 27, 2021, 04:55:36 PM »

Sounds like we need to "make a case for using the existing team" with the AMA!

Sooner rather than later.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #31 on:** May 27, 2021, 07:18:04 PM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on May 27, 2021, 11:58:56 AM

I would support a policy change that stated the the Tram Trials are picking the team for the NEXT WC, whenever that is.

There is no need for a global policy change. This is obviously a one-off situation. Paul, as usual, has it right, make a case for an exception this time.

Brett

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #32 on:** May 27, 2021, 07:45:16 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on May 27, 2021, 07:18:04 PM

There is no need for a global policy change. This is obviously a one-off situation. Paul, as usual, has it right, make a case for an exception this time.

Brett

To put it simply, we won't be having a team trials because we already have selected a team that was not allowed to compete, and that also saves the time and expense for all involved in putting on a new team trials. It's just not fair to the existing team members to saddle them with the expense and preparations and then not allow them to compete. To me, there really is NO reason to do anything else, and I think it would be in the AMA's best interest also. The 2020 event was postponed and not canceled, so that meshes with the reasoning also. This team was chosen for the 2020 event. If the AMA can't see the logic in this, then we have the wrong people in charge. Since PAMPA is the SIG for the event maybe a poll of it's membership to see if the majority agrees? In my mind, it's a simple problem with a simple solution. If you wanted to throw in a stupid technicality, just say that the FAI is holding the postponed 2020 WC event, and then cancel the 2022 event altogether and get back on track for 2024. There will be a lost cycle any way you work it ( through no one person's or entity's fault) and it doesn't make any sense to try and make it up.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

mike londke · « **Reply #33 on:** May 27, 2021, 08:32:35 PM »

"The Championships awarded to Poland in 2022 will be considered as a NEW event which is going to happen without the need to bid for this since the previously allocated event did not happen for Force Majeure reasons.
“New event” seems pretty clear. How many bites at the apple does the team chosen in 2109 get? And I mean that in the most respectful way. Sorry they got screwed twice, but what happens if they don’t go in 22? Do they get to go in 23’ or 24’? There is a lot of support in this thread for sending the current team and everyone is asking who would be opposed. Those who might be opposed and wanting a chance aren’t going to stick their necks out here in this thread, only to be seen as uncaring with no empathy to the current team. It’s not a matter of being out lobbied by losers either. Some have been waiting, preparing and practicing for many years for the 2022 cycle in F2 to try out for the team who were not losers in the 2019 team trials because they did not try out. Pretty sure this won’t win me any popularity contests but I do have a dog in this fight. And I will advocate and lobby for him and others who’ve put in work and are ready to try to earn their spot.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #34 on:** May 27, 2021, 08:45:34 PM »

Quote from: mike londke on May 27, 2021, 08:32:35 PM

“New event” seems pretty clear. How many bites at the apple does the team chosen in 2109 get?

Well, one would be a nice goal.

Brett

mike londke · « **Reply #35 on:** May 27, 2021, 08:50:48 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on May 27, 2021, 08:45:34 PM

Well, one would be a nice goal.

Brett

They had 2 and it didn't work out because of Covid. Do they get 3, 4 or 5 if the pandemic persists and international travel is still messed up? Not looking for a fight just an honest answer. I think it's a valid question.

Paul Walker · « **Reply #36 on:** May 27, 2021, 09:20:03 PM »

As noted before, what ever decision is made will be unpopular with some. We can see that already.

Cases, on both sides, need to be made to Hansen so he can "rule" on the AMA plans.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #37 on:** May 27, 2021, 10:15:19 PM »

Quote from: mike londke on May 27, 2021, 08:50:48 PM

They had 2 and it didn't work out because of Covid. Do they get 3, 4 or 5 if the pandemic persists and international travel is still messed up? Not looking for a fight just an honest answer. I think it's a valid question.

Of course it is a valid question.

They have had zero - first one was postponed they continued to prepare, both time and money, now postponed again. It's obviously a one-off situation. If it lasts 5 years, then revisit it if and when it happens.

Brett

RandySmith · « **Reply #38 on:** May 27, 2021, 10:17:08 PM »

"Since PAMPA is the SIG for the event maybe a poll of it's membership to see if the majority agrees? In my mind, it's a simple problem with a simple solution. If you wanted to throw in a stupid technicality, just say that the FAI is holding the postponed 2020 WC event "

As far as PAMPA goes, they have no say in the FAi F2 team selection contest, They do not run the event, there are NO PAMPA Classes, and they are not the SIG for F2 events. The AMA appointed PAMPA as the SIG for AMA Precision Aerobatics , Thus WE, as PAMPA are allowed to run the AMA NATs as we want.
F2 Team selections do NOT run that way, the AMA established a special Committee to run the Team Trials, with every District having a Representative on that board. It is the AMA's FAI F2B Team selection committee that runs and oversees that team contest, The board , basically picks the place, picks when, picks who the ED is, picks the Judges, and picks the Jury.
There is a special publication that mandates how the Team selection contest are to be ran. This is the way it has been for decades
If you have an interest on how things are done, please contact the AMA for the Blue Book on Rules for FAI team selections

Regards
Randy Smith

RandySmith · « **Reply #39 on:** May 27, 2021, 10:26:13 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on May 24, 2021, 05:35:00 PM

No Brett nobody at AMA said anything to me. Actually though I'd think this more something that would be directed to Randy and the Team Committee, which it was, at least in they got notified before everyone else. FAI and PAMPA are sort of two separate worlds. My personal involvement with the FAI team program is in no way connected to PAMPA. I know the Covid issue put the whole World program into a mess that nobody could have anticipated. I didn't make the team last time but if I did I'd be VERY disappointed right now. Before all this happened I very much looked forward to taking another crack at it for 2022 (likely my last try due to work retirement). It's sad if it happened this way though.

Dave

Hi Dave
No we did not get notified before hand, The decision was already made by the AMA Pres.... BEFORE he spoke to the FAI Team Selection people, pilots, Team members, or anyone else to my knowledge. That should have happened Before he wrote that very very LATE email, and gave just a couple of Days to respond. This was not handled very well.

Regards
Randy

BillLee · « **Reply #40 on:** May 28, 2021, 06:54:35 AM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 27, 2021, 10:17:08 PM

"Since PAMPA is the SIG for the event maybe a poll of it's membership to see if the majority agrees? In my mind, it's a simple problem with a simple solution. If you wanted to throw in a stupid technicality, just say that the FAI is holding the postponed 2020 WC event "

As far as PAMPA goes, they have no say in the FAi F2 team selection contest, They do not run the event, there are NO PAMPA Classes, and they are not the SIG for F2 events. The AMA appointed PAMPA as the SIG for AMA Precision Aerobatics , Thus WE, as PAMPA are allowed to run the AMA NATs as we want.
F2 Team selections do NOT run that way, the AMA established a special Committee to run the Team Trials, with every District having a Representative on that board. It is the AMA's FAI F2B Team selection committee that runs and oversees that team contest, The board , basically picks the place, picks when, picks who the ED is, picks the Judges, and picks the Jury.
There is a special publication that mandates how the Team selection contest are to be ran. This is the way it has been for decades
If you have an interest on how things are done, please contact the AMA for the Blue Book on Rules for FAI team selections

Regards
Randy Smith

Well said, Randy. And if anyone wants to see "The Blue Book", they can get it here: http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2014_BLUE_BOOKFEB14.pdf

Regards,

Bill Lee

mike londke · « **Reply #41 on:** May 28, 2021, 09:29:32 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on May 27, 2021, 10:15:19 PM

Of course it is a valid question.

If it lasts 5 years, then revisit it if and when it happens.

Brett

What do you suggest we do with Jr's wanting a try out for F2 Teams? Make them wait 5 years and possibly age out? Does that seem right?

bob whitney · « **Reply #42 on:** May 28, 2021, 11:12:42 AM »

i have no hoarse in this race although i know flyers on both sides of the tracks . It looks like someone needs to bite the bullit and make a decision, and then everyone will need to live with it .Glad i dont have to make that. decision'

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #43 on:** May 28, 2021, 11:40:26 AM »

Quote from: mike londke on May 28, 2021, 09:29:32 AM

What do you suggest we do with Jr's wanting a try out for F2 Teams? Make them wait 5 years and possibly age out? Does that seem right?

Well, to look at the reality of it, how many juniors have we had competing for the team at each team trials? One? Two or three? The line hasn't been very long and that is just looking at the state of the hobby and event in this day and age. The current team has already made a significant investment of time and money. They have something tangible to lose. If the WC manages to be held in 2022, it will only be one more year until the next opportunity to make the next team. Sam is just getting into the age bracket to be eligible and will have more opportunities if the world doesn't get any more crazy. I think we all want him to succeed and I know he will. His day will come. If the shoe were on the other foot, I think you would feel the same way. I don't have a dog in this fight either, so it's easier to be objective about it, but it will still be a tough choice and a shame anyone has to miss out. It is what it is through no one's fault .
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

RandySmith · « **Reply #44 on:** May 28, 2021, 12:39:02 PM »

Quote from: Steve Hines on May 25, 2021, 09:08:45 PM

It was canceled, there is no team. what are you going to do about the woman that can be on the team for 2022. I would like to know what the FAI has to say about this. remember when Samantha could not go to Australia because for she could not get off school and the when school she could the president could not appoint her because the FAI rules about the team trials. we have a few weeks to have it at the nats. There should have been plans for the team trials for the 2022 anyway. Sounds like the others are going to have new ones, should be the same rules for everyone.

A question for you, will Sam be over 21 at August 2022 ?

Randy

mike londke · « **Reply #45 on:** May 28, 2021, 01:17:23 PM »

Quote from: Dan McEntee on May 28, 2021, 11:40:26 AM

Well, to look at the reality of it, how many juniors have we had competing for the team at each team trials? One? Two or three? The line hasn't been very long and that is just looking at the state of the hobby and event in this day and age. The current team has already made a significant investment of time and money. They have something tangible to lose. If the WC manages to be held in 2022, it will only be one more year until the next opportunity to make the next team. Sam is just getting into the age bracket to be eligible and will have more opportunities if the world doesn't get any more crazy. I think we all want him to succeed and I know he will. His day will come. If the shoe were on the other foot, I think you would feel the same way. I don't have a dog in this fight either, so it's easier to be objective about it, but it will still be a tough choice and a shame anyone has to miss out. It is what it is through no one's fault .
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dan we are talking about more than just F2B. There are 4 classes of F2. AMA’s decision affects more than just stunt. If AMA retracts their decision to hold new TT, current waiting Jrs in those disciplines will lose out as well. And there are more than 2 or 3. That’s why I’m advocating for Samuel. We have gathered equipment, planned and prepared for him to try out for the F2D team. I understand this is a stunt forum but some of us participate in more than one class and this topic affects all CL teams.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #46 on:** May 28, 2021, 01:28:04 PM »

Quote from: mike londke on May 28, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

Dan we are talking about more than just F2B. There are 4 classes of F2. AMA’s decision affects more than just stunt. If AMA retracts their decision to hold new TT, Jrs in those disciplines will lose out as well. That’s why I’m advocating for Samuel. We have gathered equipment, planned and prepared for him to try out for the F2D team. I understand this is a stunt forum but some of us participate in more than one class and this topic affects all CL teams.

This is a singular unique situation that should/could be handled on a case-by-case basis. I think many are trying to treat this like a problem that has to be solved in a general case, across the board, for everyone and every situation. This is a unique once-in-a-century abnormal situation, there is no reason that the stunt part of it for this one time can't be different from the combat part, or the RC, or FF.

And, it is *2 years*, not 5, or some other "what if" situation. We have actual names, people, and situations, it is not a hypothetical, and some effort should be spent to optimize it this one time for everyone, and then go back to normal on the next cycle.

Brett

Howard Rush · « **Reply #47 on:** May 28, 2021, 02:48:09 PM »

Quote from: Lauri Malila on May 28, 2021, 02:13:50 PM

actually, we are kind of back to normal cycle, at least in what comes to FF and CL world champs. last year it looked badly so, that the 2 world champs would overlap but luckily the CL was cancelled/postponed first, and then FF for 2023.
So I and many others have to qualify again but so what. If I don'd qualify, then someone who is better does. L

You are within walking distance of the contest, though, so you probably haven't paid for airline tickets. You can get there without disassembling and reassembling your model. We have to have to reassemble and retrim ours, requiring fancy flap-tweaking mechanisms imported from Switzerland.

Thanks for the mechanism. I have some maple for you, donated by Mike Londke.

RandySmith · « **Reply #48 on:** May 29, 2021, 09:24:55 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 28, 2021, 12:39:02 PM

A question for you, will Sam be over 21 at August 2022 ?

Randy

Well Steve will not answer me, but just for everyone's info, A female contestant can show up at a Team Trials, Fly and would be put on the team, if there is only 1 female competing, it would be certain, by FAI rules, So we could possibly have 5 team members, and the female could be a Jr. or a SR. member. This needs to be kept in mind, the next time we hold a team Selection Contest.

Regards
Randy Smith

James Mills · « **Reply #49 on:** May 29, 2021, 09:37:32 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 29, 2021, 09:24:55 PM

Well Steve will not answer me, but just for everyone's info, A female contestant can show up at a Team Trials, Fly and would be put on the team, if there is only 1 female competing, it would be certain, by FAI rules, So we could possibly have 5 team members, and the female could be a Jr. or a SR. member. This needs to be kept in mind, the next time we hold a team Selection Contest.

Regards
Randy Smith

Randy,

Ben will be 20 in August of 2022, will he still be eligible for Jr.?

Jame

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #50 on:** May 30, 2021, 12:33:30 AM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 29, 2021, 09:24:55 PM

Well Steve will not answer me, but just for everyone's info, A female contestant can show up at a Team Trials, Fly and would be put on the team, if there is only 1 female competing, it would be certain, by FAI rules, So we could possibly have 5 team members, and the female could be a Jr. or a SR. member. This needs to be kept in mind, the next time we hold a team Selection Contest.

Regards
Randy Smith

Somehow I missed that part. Are we adding a slot and reserving one for a female? I am curious, how many are there capable of competing at the expert level? I didn't think that there was ever a restriction based on gender, only skill. If the top three were female that would be the team. The Army currently recognized 5 genders. (not sure what the 5th one is) Are we about to have an 8 person team? Where does this insanity end. Is there one thing about flying PA that is done better simply because you are male? I guess the PC police will be visiting me soon.

Ken

RandySmith · « **Reply #51 on:** May 30, 2021, 01:26:15 AM »

Quote from: James Mills on May 29, 2021, 09:37:32 PM

Randy,

Ben will be 20 in August of 2022, will he still be eligible for Jr.?

Jame

Yes he would still be eligible if that were the case, and he was on the team

Rady

RandySmith · « **Reply #52 on:** May 30, 2021, 01:30:20 AM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on May 30, 2021, 12:33:30 AM

Somehow I missed that part. Are we adding a slot and reserving one for a female? I am curious, how many are there capable of competing at the expert level? I didn't think that there was ever a restriction based on gender, only skill. If the top three were female that would be the team. The Army currently recognized 5 genders. (not sure what the 5th one is) Are we about to have an 8 person team? Where does this insanity end. Is there one thing about flying PA that is done better simply because you are male? I guess the PC police will be visiting me soon.

Ken

HI Ken
We are not adding any slots, except for a female can be the 5th member of the team, The limit is now 5 instead of 4. FAI enacted a rule that states that a female can make the team a 5 person Team, and ONLY a female. The did that only to encourage more females to participate, There will NOT be 6 , 7 or 8 person teams. Does not matter what her score is. However if 3 females showed up, and beat the score of the top 3 males, then the team would be female for the SR. part , there is no rule to add a male

Regards
Randy

BillLee · « **Reply #53 on:** May 30, 2021, 06:01:19 AM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 30, 2021, 01:30:20 AM

HI Ken
We are not adding any slots, except for a female can be the 5th member of the team, The limit is now 5 instead of 4. FAI enacted a rule that states that a female can make the team a 5 person Team, and ONLY a female. The did that only to encourage more females to participate, There will NOT be 6 , 7 or 8 person teams. Does not matter what her score is. However if 3 females showed up, and beat the score of the top 3 males, then the team would be female for the SR. part , there is no rule to add a male

Regards
Randy

Randy, the combinations are myriad and mind-boggling!

Suppose the top three(or even one or two) qualifiers are female. You simply name one to be the "team female" and then next higher qualifier(maybe male, female,whatever) is elevated to the team. And on and on and on....

Bottom line: FAI says up to five team members as long as one is a junior and one is female. But the rules don't say how those will interact. It's a real mess!

Paul Smith · « **Reply #54 on:** May 30, 2021, 07:59:40 AM »

I'm not involved in this anymore, but I was heavily into the F2D program from 1970 to 1990.

Competing in Team Trials has become a sport in itself. The winners of the TT have won the honor of calling themselves the US Team in a recognized sport.

Having tried many times, I concede that there is nothing the US can do to control the actions of the FAI. If they cancelled the 2020, 2021 and other WC's, that's their doing and not ours.

The worldwide Covid scare and the political countermeasures have cost millions of people a lot of one-time opportunities, including career-changing losses. It is obvious that many of the countermeasures have actually been cost-saving actions aimed more at cutting losses than disease.

So let the TT go on and hope to actually have another WC some time in future.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #55 on:** May 30, 2021, 04:10:03 PM »

Quote from: BillLee on May 30, 2021, 06:01:19 AM

Randy, the combinations are myriad and mind-boggling!

Suppose the top three(or even one or two) qualifiers are female. You simply name one to be the "team female" and then next higher qualifier(maybe male, female,whatever) is elevated to the team. And on and on and on....

Bottom line: FAI says up to five team members as long as one is a junior and one is female. But the rules don't say how those will interact. It's a real mess!

But, the way to exploit it to maximum advantage is quite obvious. The female team member should always go in that team slot regardless of age, if there happens to be a junior on top of it (male or female), then so be it. Then you get a junior slot for free.

I think finding people to fill the 2 extra slots will be the big problem.

Brett

Paul Smith · « **Reply #56 on:** May 30, 2021, 09:32:05 PM »

As I read it, the Team Score is the total score of a nation's top 3.

So a nation that plays to win will find a way to have 5 flyers.

RandySmith · « **Reply #57 on:** May 31, 2021, 12:52:58 PM »

Quote from: BillLee on May 30, 2021, 06:01:19 AM

Randy, the combinations are myriad and mind-boggling!

Suppose the top three(or even one or two) qualifiers are female. You simply name one to be the "team female" and then next higher qualifier(maybe male, female,whatever) is elevated to the team. And on and on and on....

Bottom line: FAI says up to five team members as long as one is a junior and one is female. But the rules don't say how those will interact. It's a real mess!

Bill , you got that right ! it will be interesting to see how this FAI quest goes in promoting female participation .

Randy

De Hill · « **Reply #58 on:** May 31, 2021, 01:51:43 PM »

If a man identifies as a woman can he try out for the team as a woman?

BillLee · « **Reply #59 on:** May 31, 2021, 01:58:23 PM »

Quote from: De Hill on May 31, 2021, 01:51:43 PM

If a man identifies as a woman can he try out for the team as a woman?

Oh, my!!

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #60 on:** May 31, 2021, 04:23:01 PM »

Quote from: De Hill on May 31, 2021, 01:51:43 PM

If a man identifies as a woman can he try out for the team as a woman?

I rest my case. We are going down the rabbit hole.

Ken

De Hill · « **Reply #61 on:** May 31, 2021, 05:04:07 PM »

Hmmm... If a man identifies as a lesbian, he can try out for the team, and will Not have to change any of his actions.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #62 on:** May 31, 2021, 08:20:21 PM »

Quote from: De Hill on May 31, 2021, 05:04:07 PM

Hmmm... If a man identifies as a lesbian, he can try out for the team, and will Not have to change any of his actions.

Interesting. I think that a male lesbian is one of the 20 some genders (some sources have it at 80) the LGBTQrstuvwxyz community recognizes this week. Since the FAI is only concerned with two genders then are the others excluded? FYI, a full sized stunter won't fit down the Rabbit hole.

Ken

Paul Smith · « **Reply #63 on:** June 01, 2021, 07:54:40 AM »

By allowing a nation an effective bonus of one or two team members, the FAI has created a strong incentive to bring women and children into the sport.

In the absence of valuable prizes, I doubt that modeling will be targeted like some women's professional sports.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #64 on:** June 01, 2021, 09:10:27 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on June 01, 2021, 07:54:40 AM

By allowing a nation an effective bonus of one or two team members, the FAI has created a strong incentive to bring women and children into the sport.

In the absence of valuable prizes, I doubt that modeling will be targeted like some women's professional sports.

Tokenism is never a good idea, and anyone who you would actually want as a new stunt competitor (regardless of gender) would be offended by the notion that they needed to be pandered to.

Brett

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #65 on:** June 01, 2021, 12:24:04 PM »

I have no idea how including someone on a world team who is not competitive at that level will attract anyone. I can't think of anything we are doing that is discouraging someone, regardless of their gender, from participating. When I was in High School my girlfriend accompanied me to contests, chased gliders with us and launched for me in practice. She really enjoyed it but she was discouraged from participating, not by us but by her girlfriends. Pier pressure is very persuasive. I don't think the pier pressure for girls to not do "boy things" is that strong any more. I took my grandkids (6 & 8 ) out to watch me practice a while back and they were really impressed but it was my granddaughter that showed the most interest. Nobody was there to tell her that "Girls don't do that" like they were even in my daughters day. My daughter really liked my sailplanes and wanted to learn to fly them until she mentioned that to one of her school friends.

My point is that we don't need false incentives to attract women. If they want to fly they will show up and this time they won't have someone at school or at home discouraging them. What we should be concerned with is that if enough of them do decide to work their way up the skill ladder we may find the FAI revising the rule to require at least one male on the team.

Ken

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #66 on:** June 01, 2021, 01:05:14 PM »

On this topic , it set another set of gears going in my head. I have a ten year old granddaughter who I am going to teach to fly right after the Nats......my oldest grandson (14) can fly but really shows no interest. I have two other grandsons not quite old enough. I hope I get at least one flier out of the brood. I almost think it could be the girl. Watch out Dawn Cosmillo....

Dave

BillLee · « **Reply #67 on:** June 01, 2021, 01:18:06 PM »

Further information received today from AMA/FAI Executive Committee:

The decision has been made that the teams selected for the 2020 F2 WChs will represent us in 2022 in Poland. No new team selection will be done.

How this affects any current team member who qualified in the junior slot but has "aged out" is yet to be determined.

Regards,

Bill Lee