2018 NATs Planning - What We Know So Far

[Brett Buck]

However if you like 28 hour flights just to the mainland then 2 more flights to Indianapolis..  then driving on the other side of the road.. travels with kids and takeapart planes just to experience stunt heaven then..  Muncie is it.  Just dont complain about it. 

I have to plan 18 months ahead of any US nats trip. you locals who are complaining are pathetic.

    Over the line, PJ.   Nobody is judging your actions, don't judge ours.

    I have hauled my ass across the country something like 15 times now, at a total cost to me of around $10,000 a pop if you include cost of the time. I am not asking anyone to feel sorry for me, I am a big boy and make my own choices. But you can't deny that for people who cannot manage 2 full weeks of time off to get in (for most of them) 4 flights, it's a daunting prospect. Muncie is permanently stationed about 3 days driving from where most of the stunt fliers reside. We have had almost the same attendance at Golden State that we get at a typical NATs, just because many of the people we normally have at local contests cannot manage to make the NATs. Exactly as predicted in 1996, Nationals participation by West Coast fliers has trickled down to nearly nothing at this point, and only the die-hards go any more. There are still plenty of entrants, so it's not the end of the world, but the 20-30 guys I see at local contests, most of whose names you never heard of, would love to be able to go but can't.

    Brett

 
   

[Brett Buck]

Brett,   

I want to clarify that for some reason with the combat scores, they list everyone as a DNF/DNS   that did not get a trophy.   The numbers for combat this year were way up, and believe me, we all flew.

  I stand corrected, thanks! I did get that from the posted scores. It didn't quite compute, since FAI Combat is usually the biggest combat event.

I should have instead looked at this very interesting page:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/regstats.aspx

    An interesting illustration of the phenomenon I was talking about is visible. For CL (all categories) there were 193 individual entrants in the official events, for 362 total entries. That means that on average, people entered 2 events. We know for sure that the 67 stunt entrants flew only one event, since the stunt events are all mutually exclusive (+- a few who might have flown combat or some other event). The other CL events added together had 126 entrants, and 295 total entries between them. That means that most other CL entrants flew at least two events.

       Compare that to outdoor FF with 162 entrants, for 1202 total entries, or a whopping 7.5 events per entrant.

  The other interesting thing is that CL overall had the most individual entrants of those broken out separately, even the big hitters FF and RC Soaring. And that is ignoring the 4 unofficial events (BEG/INT, OTS, and Classic).

     There is a lot of very good data to be mined here.

     Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

Greg Hahn has been gone from AMA for some time.

As I have been told, there is no longer a NATs Mangement Team and the schedule is set up primarily by a salaried AMA employee (non-flyer). If you have a complaint or a suggestion, you need to contact your EC representative. That smacks an awful lot like the "big-wigs" setting the schedule.

That's precisely what I was told by more than one person!  Sure sounds to me like the AMA EC sets the schedules and budgets!  Which is where I was coming from in my original statement!

Randy Cuberly

[BillLee]

...
 p.s. BTW, no one here fails to realize that WC was almost certainly scheduled to cause this conflict, do they? I am sure it would do certain international egos a great deal of good to make people have to choose one or the other, or to eliminate some of the likely competitors. Of course, they might get a big surprise when more people choose the NATs. The same people managed to sabotage the carefully-laid and coordinated plans for the multi-circle format in 2004. Mon Dieu!

Oh,now, Brett, that's just plain silly! To think that an organizer in East Kermudgistan would give a rat's a$$ about the U.S. NATs is too humorous to contemplate. H3ll, they don't even pay attention to the NATs dates of their neighboring countries, let alone a minor player like the U.S.

As for the 2004 plans (I was there, few others were!): even  though they made complete sense since the rules were changing in 2005, they were simply not legal for 2004. We HOPED we could make it happen, we were shot down and required to abide by the rules as they were written.Yes, we were all quite unhappy about the decision, but in retrospect, you either fly (and organize) by the rules or you don't. If you choose to not follow the rules, where is the line drawn?

[Trostle]

As for the 2004 plans (I was there, few others were!): even  though they made complete sense since the rules were changing in 2005, they were simply not legal for 2004.

Indeed, Bill Lee was at the 2004 World Championships.  He was the overall Contest Director and did a remarkable good job and received very little recognition for it.  Being the U.S. Team Manager as he has done a number of times is like trying to herd a large group of wild cats.  Being the CD at the World Championships multiplies that task tenfold.

I apologize for drifting from the subject of this thread, but wanted to give Bill some positive comments for the work he has done for all of our CL activities.

Keith

[Brett Buck]

Oh,now, Brett, that's just plain silly! To think that an organizer in East Kermudgistan would give a rat's a$$ about the U.S. NATs is too humorous to contemplate. H3ll, they don't even pay attention to the NATs dates of their neighboring countries, let alone a minor player like the U.S.

   East Kermudgistan is just outside Paris, nest-ce pas? Perhaps in a "no go zone"?

      Brett

[john e. holliday]

It has been a few years since my last NATS.   If not for Melvin and Brenda Schuette I would have missed a lot of them.  Can't thank them enough.  But I say leave the CL Nats as is.  I remember a few years when the competiters had to make a choice.   If I remember right the whole NATS would start at the tail end of July and go into August.  What has changed the NATS is the radio control with the old frequencies in which they needed more days for all the events.  They have the numbers to control things.   If control line gets moved we may never get the dates back.

Now Randy C. was one of my heroes back in the days when I was getting into this competition modeling.  Back then we could count on a NATS being within 600 miles of us every other year and a couple of times in our back yard so to speak.   Now the free flighters are taking over the AMA site.  In other word I for one say keep our dates.   The Worlds only mattered to me when they were here in 2004.

[Randy Cuberly]

Aha!  Good one Brett!!! 

Randy Cuberly

[Randy Cuberly]

It has been a few years since my last NATS.   If not for Melvin and Brenda Schuette I would have missed a lot of them.  Can't thank them enough.  But I say leave the CL Nats as is.  I remember a few years when the competiters had to make a choice.   If I remember right the whole NATS would start at the tail end of July and go into August.  What has changed the NATS is the radio control with the old frequencies in which they needed more days for all the events.  They have the numbers to control things.   If control line gets moved we may never get the dates back.

Now Randy C. was one of my heroes back in the days when I was getting into this competition modeling.  Back then we could count on a NATS being within 600 miles of us every other year and a couple of times in our back yard so to speak.   Now the free flighters are taking over the AMA site.  In other word I for one say keep our dates.   The Worlds only mattered to me when they were here in 2004.

Great memories Doc!  Nothing stays the same unfortunately!
Hope to see you again at VSC!

Randy Cuberly

[Joseph Patterson]

 I appreciate all the replies to this thread except R.C.'S. Need to get your big foot out of your mouth!
      Doug

[Paul Walker]

I would support leaving it on the later July dates. It is warmer, but has less wind and more weather "stable".

OR, moving all of CL to late August or early Sept. Much nicer weather then!

[Randy Cuberly]

I appreciate all the replies to this thread except R.C.'S. Need to get your big foot out of your mouth!
      Doug

Well, I could put my big foot in your mouth if you really want to get personal Jerk!

R.C.

[Brett Buck]

I would support leaving it on the later July dates. It is warmer, but has less wind and more weather "stable".

OR, moving all of CL to late August or early Sept. Much nicer weather then!

  Really? All the really miserable dead-air days I recall from Muncie were at the TT, which is about then. I seem to remember you flying an 8AM flight where at the end, the exhaust was still hanging in the air in the shape of a hemisphere at the end. Also, days where it was 100+ degrees and fog.

    It doesn't really make any sense, and it's just anecdotal, but we have had better weather in the third week of July, so if that was the only consideration I I certainly agree. Getting rid of the scale flyovers/crashovers was a big improvement, too. The pylon guys are fine, they're going 200 mph but they actually know how to fly.  The scale guys putt around at 45 and still can't stay within 1/2 a mile of their allotted space and crash frequently.

    Brett

[Howard Rush]

The only thing that we could not do: Yolanda in HQ offered to print our score sheets; they routinely print carbonless score sheets for various other events.  We tried but OUR PROGRAM would not send the compatible collating formats to their printers.  Instead they let John Paris & I set-up our printer in the Board Room and print out the first 4 rounds of Qualifying Round score sheets.   BTW, later on, John Paris thought he figured out what we needed to do but we did not try it again.  That will be passed on and hopefully the next ED & his team can give it another go.

Pass it on to me, please.  I assume you just didn't make the correct collating selection in Excel when you went to print it.  I shall spell out in the instructions how to do that.  If the problem is something else unique to AMA's printer, please tell me what printer they use.  Maybe I can correspond with Yolanda to figure it out for next year. 

[Howard Rush]

Here's what I found in a quick search for Muncie climate data: https://weatherspark.com/y/15312/Average-Weather-in-Muncie-Indiana-United-States . 

[Randy Cuberly]

Actually there's a song that tells it all!  "God didn't make little green apples and it don't rain in Indinapolis in the Summer Time!.....

Wind data looks real good if you can live with the Rain and Lightening! 

 

It certainly does look better in August and early September!

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

Here's what I found in a quick search for Muncie climate data: https://weatherspark.com/y/15312/Average-Weather-in-Muncie-Indiana-United-States .

   Its sort of consistent with what we observed, but it seems like a lot bigger difference than that shows.

     Brett

[Joseph Patterson]

Well, I could put my big foot in your mouth if you really want to get personal Jerk!

R.C.

      Now now R.C. you talk down to others and give out with insults sometimes as you did in the beginning of this thread. In the very beginning you did in a way put your foot in mouth. If the opportunity ever presents itself for you to put your big foot in my mouth I would not advise you to do it. I admit I got a little personal and I apologize for that.
      My apologies also to this forum for getting a little crosswise with Randy.
            Doug

[Mike Palko]

I also suggest we keep the dates we have.

Mike

[Brett Buck]

Without taking sides - those of us who attend the NATs on a regular basis are generally *very satisfied* with the conduct of the contest, and to whatever extent, the AMA plays a big role in that. They aren't the only ones - clearly, the VOLUNTEERs do a huge amount to make it work as well, and I can speak for all long-time competitors in saying we thank goodness that all these people, AMA and otherwise, manage to hold the best-run and one of the biggest stunt contests in the world year after year.

    The larger AMA goals and plans, I have a lot of serious questions about. If anyone thinks the "registration" and/or draconian drone restrictions are a closed case or in any way resolved, they are very much mistaken. I think what the AMA had been doing at the leadership level has been very unwise and borderline unethical for decades, and their reaction to drones has been nearly catastrophic already. I can easily envision CL in particular being casually written out of existence by drone rules, inadvertently and without a peep from the AMA.

    Those two items - NATs and AMA's public policies and conduct - are, to me, two entirely separate things, and I and many others have *no issue whatsoever* with the conduct of the NATs.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

I like the Nats. Volunteers and AMA make it great.

[Eric Viglione]

This letter to the EC back in the 2012 says it better than I could. Since I didn't have a chance to get permission from the member to post this, I have cleaned it up and made it anonymous.
I think the sentiment is still appropriate.
EricV

To all:
 
I have competed at the Nationals for the last 25 years, only missing two Nationals. 
 
I read with disappointment the purported decision to change the 2013 Control Line Nats to the first week in July.  This will mean official flying will be conducted on July 4th. 
This decision will absolutely reduce the number of contestants and PAMPA's ability to recruit volunteers, including judges, for these dates. 
It will also reinforce our SIGs impression that Control Line Aerobatics is becoming the "Red Headed" stepchild of the AMA.
 
I respectfully request that the "decision" to re-schedule our event be reconsidered.

[Derek Barry]

Dennis,

I hope that after reading everything posted here, you will fight to keep the dates we already have.

And to those who were offended by my comments; too bad! I stand by what I said and I meant it. When you come on this forum and bash the AMA, it reflects poorly on the CL stunt community. We don't need any of that! You might not agree with AMA's direction, and that's your choice, but don't screw up a good thing for those of us who choose to compete at the best contest on the planet. I too love the world champs, and plan on attending more in the future, however, our Nats is #1, and everything else is 2nd. Many that attend the World Champs would love the opportunity to compete in Muncie.

Derek

[Dennis Adamisin]

Dennis,

I hope that after reading everything posted here, you will fight to keep the dates we already have.

And to those who were offended by my comments; too bad! I stand by what I said and I meant it. When you come on this forum and bash the AMA, it reflects poorly on the CL stunt community. We don't need any of that! You might not agree with AMA's direction, and that's your choice, but don't screw up a good thing for those of us who choose to compete at the best contest on the planet. I too love the world champs, and plan on attending more in the future, however, our Nats is #1, and everything else is 2nd. Many that attend the World Champs would love the opportunity to compete in Muncie.

Derek

I don't know if "fight" is the right word.  After the first few responses it became clear that folks preferred keeping our current dates, and I immediately reported that - and shall continue to do so.  One of the concerns I had was that we would be losing our Chief Judge.  However, Mark Overmier said he just been notified that he will not be asked to judge at the World's, so that conflict has gone away (and no doubt a new one will start on that subject!)

When I hear that the NATs date issue was being discussed, I thought it was important to alert folks, mainly as an FYI.  I did not expect the tone of some of the responses, but I guess that just means everyone cares.  However the decision will not be made for a few weeks yet.

[Derek Barry]

I don't know if "fight" is the right word.  After the first few responses it became clear that folks preferred keeping our current dates, and I immediately reported that - and shall continue to do so.  One of the concerns I had was that we would be losing our Chief Judge.  However, Mark Overmier said he just been notified that he will not be asked to judge at the World's, so that conflict has gone away (and no doubt a new one will start on that subject!)

When I hear that the NATs date issue was being discussed, I thought it was important to alert folks, mainly as an FYI.  I did not expect the tone of some of the responses, but I guess that just means everyone cares.  However the decision will not be made for a few weeks yet.

Thank you Dennis.

Derek

[Derek Barry]

  One of the concerns I had was that we would be losing our Chief Judge.  However, Mark Overmier said he just been notified that he will not be asked to judge at the World's, so that conflict has gone away (and no doubt a new one will start on that subject!)

As well it should.

Derek

[Gene Martine]

 
 Dennis:
Thank you Dennis.
Gene