stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Dennis Adamisin on July 23, 2017, 09:35:44 AM
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I know many folks are still heading home from THIS NATs, but we are learning a few things for Next Year that I wanted to share.
EVENT DIRECTOR:
We need one, and it absolutely will NOT be me. We have had numerous competitors in the primes of their competitive careers (Paul Walker, David Fitzgerald, Bob McDonald) and one in his come-back career (me) step up and take charge. We have also had numerous people take on the Assistant Director role. I am calling for someone to step forward soon and start working on the 2018 NATs.
DATES:
In 2018 the NATs CL dates coincide with the Control Line World Championships. That would have a big effect on all the CL event so the AMA is talking to the various CL Sigs to try to figure out what to do. at this point it boils down to:
A. Keep traditional NATs CL dates. LOSE entries and several Volunteers in all the CL events as a result
B. Move CL to the week of July 1-7. July 4 is Wednesday of that week
When discussing this with Yolanda Jones at AMA I said PAMPA would not be crazy about either choice but would support either choice. Upon further review I think (of these choices)the July 4 week MIGHT have some advantages: fewer vacation days needed, family friendly firework shows (not involving dyna-jets) after dark. However, that is awfully early in the year to host a NATs. If we do not move it we will lose a few competitors, and at the very least, our Chief Judge. Combat, Speed & Team Race would all be hammered.
According to Yolanda there was no availability later in the year - the AMA site is booked pretty heavily in August. The only other possibility would have been before everything else, like mid June which I nixed on the spot.
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This MUST include a NATs date AFTER the F2 World Champs as well. Moving earlier is NOT the only option.
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So far they have not figured out any way to go later.
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So far they have not figured out any way to go later.
You could schedule it in August as a stand alone event but still part of the Nats competition.
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You could schedule it in August as a stand alone event but still part of the Nats competition.
The NATs runs into the first weekend of August. As I understand it the rest of the month of August is already booked for other events.
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In the past, the people who made trips to world championships rarely attended the Nats of the same year. So why would this be any different? If Mark is planning on judging in France, we could appoint one of the other seasoned veterans as a temporary replacement.
I say keep the dates that we already have.
Derek
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Without being able to see a planning calendar of what is scheduled for August, I would have to ask the AMA what it's priorities are? We are talking about the AMA Nationals, their premier event and their reason for even existing. I don't know what is scheduled but maybe dates could be swapped. Are the other activities model related? Again, I just have to think that the NATS should be the AMA's top priority for the use of the facility, which was one of the main reasons that the facility was acquired and built in the first place. This brings up another memory of a discussion about moving the traditional dates to take better advantage of potentially better weather wind wise? If I remember it was suggested to move into August because weather data showed winds decrease and les storm activity and lake effect in that month? I haven't had time to search for that thread but I think it was the open forum here.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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In the past, the people who made trips to world championships rarely attended the Nats of the same year. So why would this be any different? If Mark is planning on judging in France, we could appoint one of the other seasoned veterans as a temporary replacement.
I say keep the dates that we already have.
Me too, we have dealt with this before, and it usually works out. It's probably moot from my perspective, it is very unlikely that I will be able to attend anyway as a competitor, much less ED. I am in charge of too many things already.
Brett
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If the date had to be moved I would rather it be a bit earlier. If we move the date to August we start to run into conflicts with school schedules so what Jr and Sr participation we do have may be lost.
James
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In the unlikely event that I came out next year, the 4th would be ever-so-slightly more likely -- but that's like, a teeny likelihood vs. a teeny-tiny one. I'll probably just stay home, and hope that Sparky makes videos so that I can watch Dave F. fly and tell myself that I could do better.
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Keep the dates we have.
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Well,
Sounds like the AMA is once again giving short shrift to CL Stunt (or CL in general)...Why is anyone surprised!
PHHHHHHHTTTTT... to the AMA!
Randy Cuberly
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Well,
Sounds like the AMA is once again giving short shrift to CL Stunt (or CL in general)...Why is anyone surprised!
PHHHHHHHTTTTT... to the AMA!
Randy Cuberly
I dont see it that way at all...
Derek
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Week of the 4th is fine with me. It would be a good warmup for the WC.
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I dont see it that way at all...
Derek
Then I'm afraid you don't see very well!
It really doesn't matter much to me. It'll just be one more year when I'm not able to attend. Still it seems like the AMA could do something about it and probably would if it was Big Time R/C or DRONES that really mean something to advertising and money!
Randy Cuberly
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Move the team trials?
I know the Houston guys did a bang-up job in previous years, but the TT location and/or dates seem to be, from my uneducated estimation, a bit more...maneuverable?
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All of you stunt followers should keep in mind that the F2 World Champs and the NATs include other events as well, and taking the WChs competitors out of the mix makes a significant impact on the NATs.
It isn't just stunt!
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Well said, Bill. And I agree with Derek and I see VERY well, thank you. AMA bashing has gotten to the same level as racism. They are percieved as not being able to do anything right, and that is a bunch of crap.
There, THAT should start some abuse of the site.
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Then I'm afraid you don't see very well!
You are entitled to your opinion, but don't equate the competition and support people in the AMA with the larger "leadership" and direction of AMA. The support the AMA provides to the actual running of the Nationals, and the care they take to make it work, are beyond reproach. The effort put into the CL portion of the NATS is disproportionately large compared to the number of entrants. While there is the occasional disagreement, overall, they knock themselves out to make for a good contest.
Note Bill's comment about the scheduling. Stunt can handle a few missing competitors, but events like TR might as well be cancelled if it conflicts with the WC. Understand that aside from stunt, the other events are *tiny* with very few individual entrants flying multiple classes or variations on the same event. We have one person per event, and there were (I think) 69 entrants in the official events and 30 or so in Beginner and Intermediate. Add in people who flew classic and OTS and not the regular AMA events, and you are over 100 distinct entries.
By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.
Looking from afar, the AMA looks like one thing, when you are actually there, you get a completely different impression.
Brett
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One way to look at this would be to ask those who are attending the WC if they would be able to do the nats if it were moved just a week before the WC event. We are talking about moving the nats up 1 or 2 weeks. I am not sure many can make the swing of the Nats and the WCs in such a close time frame, money and time wise.
Ask those attending and see what the majority say and then make a decision.
I like the nats later in the year away from the 4th. We had it on the week of the 4th for years and it makes it harder all the way around.
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I like the nats later in the year away from the 4th. We had it on the week of the 4th for years and it makes it harder all the way around.
And for whatever reason, earlier seems to get much more windy weather than later in the month. There's no real mechanism for it that I am aware of, but overall, we have done much better with this years scheduling than the early July dates.
Brett
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And for whatever reason, earlier seems to get much more windy weather than later in the month. There's no real mechanism for it that I am aware of, but overall, we have done much better with this years scheduling than the early July dates.
Brett
Brett, you are spot on about the wind. A typical spring here in this area will hold the flying to practically nothing until mid to late June. Been that way since 1964 when I moved to this area. Some years, like this one, it holds us back even later than that.
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I think the 2018 NATS schedule should be left where it is. As previously stated, those competing in the WCs
often do not compete at the NATS in the same year. Also, none of this is news. The WCs happen every two
years and it is always difficult for competitors to attend both. It is in no way the AMA's fault that the FAI
has scheduled the CL WCs for the same week as the US NATS. Why should the AMA be bashed for that?
Personally, I am sick and tired of all the AMA bashing. Especially, from those who haven't attended or competed
in a NATS in the past ten or twenty years. I have either competed or judged at every NATS held in Muncie
and have always seen a high level of support for the CL events.
Later, Steve
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My personal preference would be to leave it as is. It's harder to get the time off around the holiday( working in retail sales) and we barely start getting flyable weather here by the last week or two in June. This didn't used to be so but our seasons seemed to shift later these last few years. We are flying almost till Christmas. Again this is what suits ME better but I get the other problems. It was just 2-3 years ago AMA WANTED to move us to that earlier time frame and folks raised H E double hockie sticks until they relented. If we lose the time slot for one year we may find it difficult to get it back. No one with the WC planning put much forethought into this. The earlier suggestion that few would also be able to take in both events back- to-back seems sound to me. Those who still are working likely won't have that much vacation time. I know I could only do one.
Dave
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My personal preference would be to leave it as is. It's harder to get the time off around the holiday( working in retail sales) and we barely start getting flyable weather here by the last week or two in June. This didn't used to be so but our seasons seemed to shift later these last few years. We are flying almost till Christmas. Again this is what suits ME better but I get the other problems. It was just 2-3 years ago AMA WANTED to move us to that earlier time frame and folks raised H E double hockie sticks until they relented. If we lose the time slot for one year we may find it difficult to get it back. No one with the WC planning put much forethought into this. The earlier suggestion that few would also be able to take in both events back- to-back seems sound to me. Those who still are working likely won't have that much vacation time. I know I could only do one.
Dave
Very good points Dave. If we give up our spot, we may never get it back.
As stated before, this is not the first time there has been a scheduling conflict. Moving our Nats forward two weeks will not change anything. Those competing at the Nats on a July 4th week would have to leave directly from Muncie to go to France.
Derek
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Week of the 4th is fine with me. It would be a good warmup for the WC.
I hear ya, David... :-\
Derek
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You are entitled to your opinion, but don't equate the competition and support people in the AMA with the larger "leadership" and direction of AMA. The support the AMA provides to the actual running of the Nationals, and the care they take to make it work, are beyond reproach. The effort put into the CL portion of the NATS is disproportionately large compared to the number of entrants. While there is the occasional disagreement, overall, they knock themselves out to make for a good contest.
Note Bill's comment about the scheduling. Stunt can handle a few missing competitors, but events like TR might as well be cancelled if it conflicts with the WC. Understand that aside from stunt, the other events are *tiny* with very few individual entrants flying multiple classes or variations on the same event. We have one person per event, and there were (I think) 69 entrants in the official events and 30 or so in Beginner and Intermediate. Add in people who flew classic and OTS and not the regular AMA events, and you are over 100 distinct entries.
By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.
Looking from afar, the AMA looks like one thing, when you are actually there, you get a completely different impression.
Brett
My biggest beef with the AMA and the Nationals is that they are always held in one of the worst weather places in the country in the summer time. I still think the Nationals should be rotated to different parts of the country so they could actually be NATIONALS. Muncie is very convienient for the AMA, and not so convenient for most of the rest of the people in the country!
That's the AMA not the competition organization. The scheduling is done by WHO?
AMA bashing is not like racism at all. It's bashing an organization that has become more of a political and commercial entity than an organization of modelers! In fact considering their propensity for commercial products and insistence on holding the nationals in only one place if there is anything like Racism it's their attitude!
People need to stop equating racism to any old thing that happens to displease them.
Sorry, I just think the AMA needs to hear at every possible opportunity that there are modelers out here that don't like what they do...and BRETT you know dammed well I'm not talking about the Competition organization!
Randy Cuberly
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I'm all for rotating the Nats to different locations.....in fact I have proposed it to both the PAMPAettes and to the AMA(I proposed alternating with Muncie). I would wager that the caravan of trailers is still in the big shed in Muncie.
Even the control line Nats require a BUNCH of gear, primarily the speed/racing cage, which I imagine has deteriorated a lot.
Dragging stuff for the whole Nats would be way out of the question.
Readers here tend to think of Stunt as the only CL Nats event.
I believe that the lack of Jr./Sr. participants sort of indicates that having the control line portion of the Nats in the summer, so school wouldn't be missed, is a non-starter. I'm certain that Farmland is open year round.
Highlights of early July is that Salem runs a couple races then, and the King's Royal is held at Eldora....
I believe that moving the event is a no go, but looking at less torturing weather might be doable?
Have fun!
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Personally, I am sick and tired of all the AMA bashing. Especially, from those who haven't attended or competed
in a NATS in the past ten or twenty years. I have either competed or judged at every NATS held in Muncie
and have always seen a high level of support for the CL events.
Later, Steve
I agree 100%. I hate to sound like a prick...... But, if you have not, do not, or have no intention to come to the Nationals, stay the hell out of the conversation! Those of us that spend thousands of dollars, and travel 100s to 1000s of miles to fly at one of the best stunt sites on the planet, do not need or want your input! The AMA is extremely accommodating to us, and anything we request is a minutes away. We ran out of cups for the ice cold water they provide, and within minutes thew were replenished. If the grass needs to be cut, mowers will run you off the circle to do their job in an efficient manner. The museum is full of control line planes, from every event.... So, in closing, listen to the people that actually go to the Nats, and keep your misinformed opinions to yourselves.
Derek
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By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.
Brett
Unfortunately, I was one of the absentees. I had every intent to go, but a lot of things happened all in one shot. Bad timing I guess. Hopefully that has no ill effects on future nats planning....
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You are entitled to your opinion, but don't equate the competition and support people in the AMA with the larger "leadership" and direction of AMA. The support the AMA provides to the actual running of the Nationals, and the care they take to make it work, are beyond reproach. The effort put into the CL portion of the NATS is disproportionately large compared to the number of entrants. While there is the occasional disagreement, overall, they knock themselves out to make for a good contest.
Note Bill's comment about the scheduling. Stunt can handle a few missing competitors, but events like TR might as well be cancelled if it conflicts with the WC. Understand that aside from stunt, the other events are *tiny* with very few individual entrants flying multiple classes or variations on the same event. We have one person per event, and there were (I think) 69 entrants in the official events and 30 or so in Beginner and Intermediate. Add in people who flew classic and OTS and not the regular AMA events, and you are over 100 distinct entries.
By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.
Looking from afar, the AMA looks like one thing, when you are actually there, you get a completely different impression.
Brett
Brett,
I want to clarify that for some reason with the combat scores, they list everyone as a DNF/DNS that did not get a trophy. The numbers for combat this year were way up, and believe me, we all flew.
I am not sure what the impact on combat would be losing the team members, but it would probably be between 5 and 10. I know a couple that flew in as many classes as they could after the TT this year.
It has been my understanding that a consensus from the entire CL community will have to be reached on any date movement, as the AMA does not want to break up CL to cater to different dates.
I am of the opinion that the dates should stay put, even though if they have to move, I would like to see the dates coincide with RC scale, as I plan to fly it next year (I was going to make the 1200 mile trip twice). But since the CL stunt guys are scared of getting over flown by the RC scale group (even though scale move all the way across to site 4) I am sure this will not happen.
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I believe that the lack of Jr./Sr. participants sort of indicates that having the control line portion of the Nats in the summer, so school wouldn't be missed, is a non-starter. I'm certain that Farmland is open year round.
We had two in both Jr. and Sr. this year. While that isn't a lot of kids it's better than changing to a different time of the year and dropping the number to zero. Also, for those who have kids changing to a different time of year that interferes with the school calendar could still have a negative effect on participation (spending vacation time with family during the summer as opposed to later in the year when the family can't travel). Not sure what the Farmland comment has to do with anything.
As far as rotating the Nat's. Indiana is somewhat centrally located. We start moving it around and it may may exclude those on the East/West coast depending on the location of the contest.
James
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I agree 100%. I hate to sound like a prick...... But, if you have not, do not, or have no intention to come to the Nationals, stay the hell out of the conversation! Those of us that spend thousands of dollars, and travel 100s to 1000s of miles to fly at one of the best stunt sites on the planet, do not need or want your input! The AMA is extremely accommodating to us, and anything we request is a minutes away. We ran out of cups for the ice cold water they provide, and within minutes thew were replenished. If the grass needs to be cut, mowers will run you off the circle to do their job in an efficient manner. The museum is full of control line planes, from every event.... So, in closing, listen to the people that actually go to the Nats, and keep your misinformed opinions to yourselves.
Derek
Well said Derek.
James
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Brett,
I want to clarify that for some reason with the combat scores, they list everyone as a DNF/DNS that did not get a trophy. The numbers for combat this year were way up, and believe me, we all flew.
I am not sure what the impact on combat would be losing the team members, but it would probably be between 5 and 10. I know a couple that flew in as many classes as they could after the TT this year.
It has been my understanding that a consensus from the entire CL community will have to be reached on any date movement, as the AMA does not want to break up CL to cater to different dates.
I am of the opinion that the dates should stay put, even though if they have to move, I would like to see the dates coincide with RC scale, as I plan to fly it next year (I was going to make the 1200 mile trip twice). But since the CL stunt guys are scared of getting over flown by the RC scale group (even though scale move all the way across to site 4) I am sure this will not happen.
You we're doing OK until...... well let me say it sounds like you may not have attended the Nats Stunt event while RC Scale was happening on site 4. Firstly AMA considers overflights enough of a problem that we have been restricted from using our own site for practice before the event begins. Then we DO get overflights when some dude with buttons thinks he wants to impress us. (We aren't) However it is an unwanted distraction. They get warned but as far as I know not much else. Afraid? Try again.
Dave
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You are entitled to your opinion, but don't equate the competition and support people in the AMA with the larger "leadership" and direction of AMA. The support the AMA provides to the actual running of the Nationals, and the care they take to make it work, are beyond reproach. The effort put into the CL portion of the NATS is disproportionately large compared to the number of entrants. While there is the occasional disagreement, overall, they knock themselves out to make for a good contest.
Note Bill's comment about the scheduling. Stunt can handle a few missing competitors, but events like TR might as well be cancelled if it conflicts with the WC. Understand that aside from stunt, the other events are *tiny* with very few individual entrants flying multiple classes or variations on the same event. We have one person per event, and there were (I think) 69 entrants in the official events and 30 or so in Beginner and Intermediate. Add in people who flew classic and OTS and not the regular AMA events, and you are over 100 distinct entries.
By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.
Looking from afar, the AMA looks like one thing, when you are actually there, you get a completely different impression.
Brett
Not sure where you got those numbers but here are the facts for combat at the 2017 Nats;
8 days of combat
50 pilots from 20 states: 34 flew in Team trials, 33 flew in F2D Nats, 21 flew in Fast, 20+ flew in 1/2 A, not sure on numbers for Slow or F2D fas,t but total matches = more than 300
30+ gallons of fuel burnt
200 or so ground hits
about 100 midairs
500 launches
more than 500 streamer cuts
more than 75 match kills
Crowning a four time in a row NATS champion (Ron Columbo)
25 or so trophies handed out
So, not exactly like you portrayed it n1
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I was flying scale in 2014, and we removed a mandatory maneuver from standard scale pattern to help with the overfly issue. So there were attempts being made at the time to help you guys out. NASA did completely solve the issue by not only moving to site 4 but changing the dates to the 3rd week in June.
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I was flying scale in 2014, and we removed a mandatory maneuver from standard scale pattern to help with the overfly issue. So there were attempts being made at the time to help you guys out. NASA did completely solve the issue by not only moving to site 4 but changing the dates to the 3rd week in June.
Thats appreciated.
Dave
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Phasers back on stun everyone. Remember that the problem here is that there is a date conflict with the World's and the AMA is trying to do find the best solution FOR all of CL, not against CL. As has been noted above, Stunt would probably be one of the less affected events; Racing, Speed & Combat would all take a beating. Combat had their largest entry in years - I hope they can continue that trend because it is good for all of us.
The AMA bashing relating to the NATs and CL (non-) support is simply incorrect. The AMA HQ Staff and Field crews do great work for us. Some of the special things they did this year included:
* The Friday before CL started the Boys Scouts canceled out their food service. Sunday morning when I arrived Yolanda reported this and said they were trying to find someone - we have a lot of County Fairs around this time of year and vendors are booked. By Sunday afternoon AMA found a new (to the AMA site) vendor and about 10AM Monday an outfit called Grand Grilling showed up and proceeded to earn rave reviews for the week. BTW Monday is the day the flyers all vanish shortly after noon to go get ready for Appearance Judging - so the new vendor set up then watched the field empty out! I was very happy to see them back Tuesday and the rest of the week.
* We had the usual half dozen or so questions or problems with entries, I sent the people to Yolanda in the HQ - problems solved
* In the past the ED's have gone to Kinko's (or similar) in town to get the scoreboards printed. This year I went to AMA Plan Service and had all the scoreboards printed on their 36" wide printer. Only restriction was I had to be there between 10-5, this was only a problem on Thursday evening because I was a late getting it prepared. By start of flying Friday it was all up.
* First day of qualifying was one of those 85 degree/85% humidity scorchers that Muncie is famous for. One of the flyers suggested getting tents for the pull test judges. I called it in and 15 minutes later the AMA site crew had 10x10 canopies set off in the grass behind the pull test machines. In the past they have offered to do the same for judges but that of course is just not practical.
* We had a last minute problem with the numbers of Junior & Senior trophies, HQ got it fixed
* AMA has folks watching the weather, especially watching for lightening. They are a BIG reason we cleared out in time when the storms hit on Thursday. In the past I was the ED for various Sailplane events and we learned that we could depend on the AMA weather watchers.
* Numerous other "invisible" stuff: The big greeting sign on the pavilion, the NFFS trailer with the PAMPA supplies box waiting for us, ice water & cups, toilet paper in the porta-johns plus servicing them all week, squeegees for wet concrete surfaces - it all gets done quickly with no drama.
The only thing that we could not do: Yolanda in HQ offered to print our score sheets; they routinely print carbonless score sheets for various other events. We tried but OUR PROGRAM would not send the compatible collating formats to their printers. Instead they let John Paris & I set-up our printer in the Board Room and print out the first 4 rounds of Qualifying Round score sheets. BTW, later on, John Paris thought he figured out what we needed to do but we did not try it again. That will be passed on and hopefully the next ED & his team can give it another go.
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CL combat at the Nats has been growing every year for the past 6 years with more matches flown in Muncie this year than we have seen in a long, long time.
CL combat can expect to be significantly impacted by overlapping WC and Nats. As a rough cut, consider this: This year we had 34 entries in F2D. I estimate that about 12 of these pilots will attend the WC, reducing Nats attendance by roughly 1/3. I don't have a consensus of all the pilots, but I could expect the best turnout if the Nats precedes the WC by a few weeks and is used as a warm-up for those going to France.
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I agree 100%. I hate to sound like a prick...... But, if you have not, do not, or have no intention to come to the Nationals, stay the hell out of the conversation! Those of us that spend thousands of dollars, and travel 100s to 1000s of miles to fly at one of the best stunt sites on the planet, do not need or want your input! The AMA is extremely accommodating to us, and anything we request is a minutes away. We ran out of cups for the ice cold water they provide, and within minutes thew were replenished. If the grass needs to be cut, mowers will run you off the circle to do their job in an efficient manner. The museum is full of control line planes, from every event.... So, in closing, listen to the people that actually go to the Nats, and keep your misinformed opinions to yourselves.
Derek
Derek, although I know you're not one, you do indeed sound like a PRICK! I have not attended the Nats because they are 2500 miles away from me and I cannot leave home for that long a time! I pay my AMA dues same as you and have just as much right to voice an opinion about it as you do... Sheesh! win a contest or two and think you have the right to push the "little" People around. I was a member of the stinking AMA before you were born, in fact maybe before your parents were born... So crawl back in you hole PUP!
I do realize that the Nats will never be rotated again! Mostly because it seems folks like you don't give a dam and just roll over for everything the AMA says. Best of luck with that! Catch the bone Fido.
Now I'm done!
Randy Cuberly
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My biggest beef with the AMA and the Nationals is that they are always held in one of the worst weather places in the country in the summer time. I still think the Nationals should be rotated to different parts of the country so they could actually be NATIONALS. Muncie is very convienient for the AMA, and not so convenient for most of the rest of the people in the country!
That's the AMA not the competition organization. The scheduling is done by WHO?
The NATS has been in the middle of the summer forever, primarily, because school was out and juniors could attend. I agree with you about having to drag yourself 2400 miles year after year, the two weeks required for me to attend was a big factor in not being able to attend this year (and 2010 and 2012). We all predicted that this would slowly turn into a big Midwest/east coast local contest at some point, and it's headed that way.
But, before that, the NATs itself was in some jeopardy, because the sport fliers screamed to high heaven every year about the cost of moving it around, and the budgets. It was becoming nearly impossible to find a site for the entire thing, and in many of those, it was compromised.
The scheduling has been moved around to accommodate CL, and most recently to move the RC Scale to another week (very early in the cycle) to avoid overflights after the fiasco we had in 2015 - at least partly at my urging/suggestion. The dates we had this time are the best I know of - much later and it gets into August, which is even more miserable.
BRETT you know dammed well I'm not talking about the Competition organization!
They are the ones responsible for the NATs, so if that's not what you meant, it was far from clear. The nitwit AMA EC members that you and I both have contempt for have nothing to do with the NATs, scheduling, dates, nothing.
Brett
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They are the ones responsible for the NATs, so if that's not what you meant, it was far from clear. The nitwit AMA EC members that you and I both have contempt for have nothing to do with the NATs, scheduling, dates, nothing.
Brett
Apologies if that's true. I was told by someone that should know that the EC was responsible for all budgeting and scheduling! I will speak to the Gentleman again!
Randy Cuberly
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Apologies if that's true. I was told by someone that should know that the EC was responsible for all budgeting and scheduling! I will speak to the Gentleman again!
"Responsible" means a lot of different things depending on perspective. At some point I am sure some self-style big-wig has to sign off on it, but it's the regular staff, Greg Hahn with the category directors and EDs that work out the details.
Brett
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How many total Control Line Participants attended the NATs this year? I am talking about anyone who was flying anything with two wires exiting the wing?
Mike
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Really people complain about travelling to USA when they live there?
Ive been to 3 now.. made top 20 twice and i venture to say travelled more than 2500miles to do so.
This year you had 2 visitors from Japan.. each year you attract international competition which many others Nationals do not get.
I think if you cant make the trip your not really serious about competition on the grandest stage. If you would prefer to roll out of bed and drive 5 miles to put a ringmaster up for a 320
5 then we should ALL be listening.
However if you like 28 hour flights just to the mainland then 2 more flights to Indianapolis.. then driving on the other side of the road.. travels with kids and takeapart planes just to experience stunt heaven then.. Muncie is it. Just dont complain about it.
I have to plan 18 months ahead of any US nats trip. you locals who are complaining are pathetic.
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PJ,
I was competing seriously before you were born. You will find out perhaps as you get older and have some responsibilities that it's not always cut and dried whether you compete or not. Under the present circumstances it is simply not possible for me and a lot of my older friends who are serious competitors, some of which definitely outfly the likes of you, to travel and be away from home for long periods of time. Yes it's easy for you to judge us. Just be happy we can't make it or some of the folks like you would be further down the line in scores than you are if we could make it! Count your blessings and shut up!
Randy Cuberly
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"Responsible" means a lot of different things depending on perspective. At some point I am sure some self-style big-wig has to sign off on it, but it's the regular staff, Greg Hahn with the category directors and EDs that work out the details.
Brett
Greg Hahn has been gone from AMA for some time.
As I have been told, there is no longer a NATs Mangement Team and the schedule is set up primarily by a salaried AMA employee (non-flyer). If you have a complaint or a suggestion, you need to contact your EC representative. That smacks an awful lot like the "big-wigs" setting the schedule.
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Racism? Pathetic Locals? Stay the Hell out of the conversation? WTF? These are some of the most asinine statements I have ever heard on here. There are over 4300 people registered on this forum and some of you sound like this is your own private playground. Just keep in mind that the HUGE majority of people who fly control line airplanes do not care about the NATS and many have no idea what it even is. THis conversation is beginning to sound like a bunch of snot nosed ivy league frat boys who think they are GOD's gift to model planes. Good grief, stop taking yourselves so seriously.
Mike
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How many total Control Line Participants attended the NATs this year? I am talking about anyone who was flying anything with two wires exiting the wing?
Mike
Why do you want to exclude the speed flyers?
Keith
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As I have been told, there is no longer a NATs Mangement Team and the schedule is set up primarily by a salaried AMA employee (non-flyer). If you have a complaint or a suggestion, you need to contact your EC representative. That smacks an awful lot like the "big-wigs" setting the schedule.
It sounds a lot more like one of the regular AMA employees setting the schedule to me. I don't think the regular employees are the problem, I think it's the elected officials. Hansen isn't deciding to hold scale in June to avoid flyovers, he's too busy rushing to Washington to continue blurring the line between FPV drones from WalMart and scratch-built models that took 1500 hours to complete, and in other ways screwing the pooch.
The AMA does a pretty good job at all the NATS I have gone to, I figure 21 pretty good ones in the 24 years is a respectable record. When they f*ck up and get us wrapped up in with the FPV drones (which are DEAD CERTAIN to be regulated, even if it requires repealing the special rule for model aircraft) and put us out of business via their fairly predictable bumbling, THEN get wound up about it.
This thread took a pretty strange turn, for something that happens almost every other year like clockwork.
Brett
p.s. BTW, no one here fails to realize that WC was almost certainly scheduled to cause this conflict, do they? I am sure it would do certain international egos a great deal of good to make people have to choose one or the other, or to eliminate some of the likely competitors. Of course, they might get a big surprise when more people choose the NATs. The same people managed to sabotage the carefully-laid and coordinated plans for the multi-circle format in 2004. Mon Dieu!
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However if you like 28 hour flights just to the mainland then 2 more flights to Indianapolis.. then driving on the other side of the road.. travels with kids and takeapart planes just to experience stunt heaven then.. Muncie is it. Just dont complain about it.
I have to plan 18 months ahead of any US nats trip. you locals who are complaining are pathetic.
Over the line, PJ. Nobody is judging your actions, don't judge ours.
I have hauled my ass across the country something like 15 times now, at a total cost to me of around $10,000 a pop if you include cost of the time. I am not asking anyone to feel sorry for me, I am a big boy and make my own choices. But you can't deny that for people who cannot manage 2 full weeks of time off to get in (for most of them) 4 flights, it's a daunting prospect. Muncie is permanently stationed about 3 days driving from where most of the stunt fliers reside. We have had almost the same attendance at Golden State that we get at a typical NATs, just because many of the people we normally have at local contests cannot manage to make the NATs. Exactly as predicted in 1996, Nationals participation by West Coast fliers has trickled down to nearly nothing at this point, and only the die-hards go any more. There are still plenty of entrants, so it's not the end of the world, but the 20-30 guys I see at local contests, most of whose names you never heard of, would love to be able to go but can't.
Brett
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Brett,
I want to clarify that for some reason with the combat scores, they list everyone as a DNF/DNS that did not get a trophy. The numbers for combat this year were way up, and believe me, we all flew.
I stand corrected, thanks! I did get that from the posted scores. It didn't quite compute, since FAI Combat is usually the biggest combat event.
I should have instead looked at this very interesting page:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/regstats.aspx
An interesting illustration of the phenomenon I was talking about is visible. For CL (all categories) there were 193 individual entrants in the official events, for 362 total entries. That means that on average, people entered 2 events. We know for sure that the 67 stunt entrants flew only one event, since the stunt events are all mutually exclusive (+- a few who might have flown combat or some other event). The other CL events added together had 126 entrants, and 295 total entries between them. That means that most other CL entrants flew at least two events.
Compare that to outdoor FF with 162 entrants, for 1202 total entries, or a whopping 7.5 events per entrant.
The other interesting thing is that CL overall had the most individual entrants of those broken out separately, even the big hitters FF and RC Soaring. And that is ignoring the 4 unofficial events (BEG/INT, OTS, and Classic).
There is a lot of very good data to be mined here.
Brett
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Greg Hahn has been gone from AMA for some time.
As I have been told, there is no longer a NATs Mangement Team and the schedule is set up primarily by a salaried AMA employee (non-flyer). If you have a complaint or a suggestion, you need to contact your EC representative. That smacks an awful lot like the "big-wigs" setting the schedule.
That's precisely what I was told by more than one person! Sure sounds to me like the AMA EC sets the schedules and budgets! Which is where I was coming from in my original statement!
Randy Cuberly
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...
p.s. BTW, no one here fails to realize that WC was almost certainly scheduled to cause this conflict, do they? I am sure it would do certain international egos a great deal of good to make people have to choose one or the other, or to eliminate some of the likely competitors. Of course, they might get a big surprise when more people choose the NATs. The same people managed to sabotage the carefully-laid and coordinated plans for the multi-circle format in 2004. Mon Dieu!
Oh,now, Brett, that's just plain silly! To think that an organizer in East Kermudgistan would give a rat's a$$ about the U.S. NATs is too humorous to contemplate. H3ll, they don't even pay attention to the NATs dates of their neighboring countries, let alone a minor player like the U.S.
As for the 2004 plans (I was there, few others were!): even though they made complete sense since the rules were changing in 2005, they were simply not legal for 2004. We HOPED we could make it happen, we were shot down and required to abide by the rules as they were written.Yes, we were all quite unhappy about the decision, but in retrospect, you either fly (and organize) by the rules or you don't. If you choose to not follow the rules, where is the line drawn?
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As for the 2004 plans (I was there, few others were!): even though they made complete sense since the rules were changing in 2005, they were simply not legal for 2004.
Indeed, Bill Lee was at the 2004 World Championships. He was the overall Contest Director and did a remarkable good job and received very little recognition for it. Being the U.S. Team Manager as he has done a number of times is like trying to herd a large group of wild cats. Being the CD at the World Championships multiplies that task tenfold.
I apologize for drifting from the subject of this thread, but wanted to give Bill some positive comments for the work he has done for all of our CL activities.
Keith
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Oh,now, Brett, that's just plain silly! To think that an organizer in East Kermudgistan would give a rat's a$$ about the U.S. NATs is too humorous to contemplate. H3ll, they don't even pay attention to the NATs dates of their neighboring countries, let alone a minor player like the U.S.
East Kermudgistan is just outside Paris, nest-ce pas? Perhaps in a "no go zone"?
Brett
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It has been a few years since my last NATS. If not for Melvin and Brenda Schuette I would have missed a lot of them. Can't thank them enough. But I say leave the CL Nats as is. I remember a few years when the competiters had to make a choice. If I remember right the whole NATS would start at the tail end of July and go into August. What has changed the NATS is the radio control with the old frequencies in which they needed more days for all the events. They have the numbers to control things. If control line gets moved we may never get the dates back.
Now Randy C. was one of my heroes back in the days when I was getting into this competition modeling. Back then we could count on a NATS being within 600 miles of us every other year and a couple of times in our back yard so to speak. Now the free flighters are taking over the AMA site. In other word I for one say keep our dates. The Worlds only mattered to me when they were here in 2004.
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Aha! Good one Brett!!! mw~ S?P
Randy Cuberly
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It has been a few years since my last NATS. If not for Melvin and Brenda Schuette I would have missed a lot of them. Can't thank them enough. But I say leave the CL Nats as is. I remember a few years when the competiters had to make a choice. If I remember right the whole NATS would start at the tail end of July and go into August. What has changed the NATS is the radio control with the old frequencies in which they needed more days for all the events. They have the numbers to control things. If control line gets moved we may never get the dates back.
Now Randy C. was one of my heroes back in the days when I was getting into this competition modeling. Back then we could count on a NATS being within 600 miles of us every other year and a couple of times in our back yard so to speak. Now the free flighters are taking over the AMA site. In other word I for one say keep our dates. The Worlds only mattered to me when they were here in 2004.
Great memories Doc! Nothing stays the same unfortunately!
Hope to see you again at VSC!
Randy Cuberly
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I appreciate all the replies to this thread except R.C.'S. Need to get your big foot out of your mouth!
Doug
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I would support leaving it on the later July dates. It is warmer, but has less wind and more weather "stable".
OR, moving all of CL to late August or early Sept. Much nicer weather then!
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I appreciate all the replies to this thread except R.C.'S. Need to get your big foot out of your mouth!
Doug
Well, I could put my big foot in your mouth if you really want to get personal Jerk!
R.C.
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I would support leaving it on the later July dates. It is warmer, but has less wind and more weather "stable".
OR, moving all of CL to late August or early Sept. Much nicer weather then!
Really? All the really miserable dead-air days I recall from Muncie were at the TT, which is about then. I seem to remember you flying an 8AM flight where at the end, the exhaust was still hanging in the air in the shape of a hemisphere at the end. Also, days where it was 100+ degrees and fog.
It doesn't really make any sense, and it's just anecdotal, but we have had better weather in the third week of July, so if that was the only consideration I I certainly agree. Getting rid of the scale flyovers/crashovers was a big improvement, too. The pylon guys are fine, they're going 200 mph but they actually know how to fly. The scale guys putt around at 45 and still can't stay within 1/2 a mile of their allotted space and crash frequently.
Brett
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The only thing that we could not do: Yolanda in HQ offered to print our score sheets; they routinely print carbonless score sheets for various other events. We tried but OUR PROGRAM would not send the compatible collating formats to their printers. Instead they let John Paris & I set-up our printer in the Board Room and print out the first 4 rounds of Qualifying Round score sheets. BTW, later on, John Paris thought he figured out what we needed to do but we did not try it again. That will be passed on and hopefully the next ED & his team can give it another go.
Pass it on to me, please. I assume you just didn't make the correct collating selection in Excel when you went to print it. I shall spell out in the instructions how to do that. If the problem is something else unique to AMA's printer, please tell me what printer they use. Maybe I can correspond with Yolanda to figure it out for next year.
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Here's what I found in a quick search for Muncie climate data: https://weatherspark.com/y/15312/Average-Weather-in-Muncie-Indiana-United-States .
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Actually there's a song that tells it all! "God didn't make little green apples and it don't rain in Indinapolis in the Summer Time!.....
Wind data looks real good if you can live with the Rain and Lightening! D>K
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
It certainly does look better in August and early September!
Randy Cuberly
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Here's what I found in a quick search for Muncie climate data: https://weatherspark.com/y/15312/Average-Weather-in-Muncie-Indiana-United-States .
Its sort of consistent with what we observed, but it seems like a lot bigger difference than that shows.
Brett
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Well, I could put my big foot in your mouth if you really want to get personal Jerk!
R.C.
Now now R.C. you talk down to others and give out with insults sometimes as you did in the beginning of this thread. In the very beginning you did in a way put your foot in mouth. If the opportunity ever presents itself for you to put your big foot in my mouth I would not advise you to do it. I admit I got a little personal and I apologize for that.
My apologies also to this forum for getting a little crosswise with Randy.
Doug
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I also suggest we keep the dates we have.
Mike
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Without taking sides - those of us who attend the NATs on a regular basis are generally *very satisfied* with the conduct of the contest, and to whatever extent, the AMA plays a big role in that. They aren't the only ones - clearly, the VOLUNTEERs do a huge amount to make it work as well, and I can speak for all long-time competitors in saying we thank goodness that all these people, AMA and otherwise, manage to hold the best-run and one of the biggest stunt contests in the world year after year.
The larger AMA goals and plans, I have a lot of serious questions about. If anyone thinks the "registration" and/or draconian drone restrictions are a closed case or in any way resolved, they are very much mistaken. I think what the AMA had been doing at the leadership level has been very unwise and borderline unethical for decades, and their reaction to drones has been nearly catastrophic already. I can easily envision CL in particular being casually written out of existence by drone rules, inadvertently and without a peep from the AMA.
Those two items - NATs and AMA's public policies and conduct - are, to me, two entirely separate things, and I and many others have *no issue whatsoever* with the conduct of the NATs.
Brett
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I like the Nats. Volunteers and AMA make it great.
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This letter to the EC back in the 2012 says it better than I could. Since I didn't have a chance to get permission from the member to post this, I have cleaned it up and made it anonymous.
I think the sentiment is still appropriate.
EricV
To all:
I have competed at the Nationals for the last 25 years, only missing two Nationals.
I read with disappointment the purported decision to change the 2013 Control Line Nats to the first week in July. This will mean official flying will be conducted on July 4th.
This decision will absolutely reduce the number of contestants and PAMPA's ability to recruit volunteers, including judges, for these dates.
It will also reinforce our SIGs impression that Control Line Aerobatics is becoming the "Red Headed" stepchild of the AMA.
I respectfully request that the "decision" to re-schedule our event be reconsidered.
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Dennis,
I hope that after reading everything posted here, you will fight to keep the dates we already have.
And to those who were offended by my comments; too bad! I stand by what I said and I meant it. When you come on this forum and bash the AMA, it reflects poorly on the CL stunt community. We don't need any of that! You might not agree with AMA's direction, and that's your choice, but don't screw up a good thing for those of us who choose to compete at the best contest on the planet. I too love the world champs, and plan on attending more in the future, however, our Nats is #1, and everything else is 2nd. Many that attend the World Champs would love the opportunity to compete in Muncie.
Derek
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Dennis,
I hope that after reading everything posted here, you will fight to keep the dates we already have.
And to those who were offended by my comments; too bad! I stand by what I said and I meant it. When you come on this forum and bash the AMA, it reflects poorly on the CL stunt community. We don't need any of that! You might not agree with AMA's direction, and that's your choice, but don't screw up a good thing for those of us who choose to compete at the best contest on the planet. I too love the world champs, and plan on attending more in the future, however, our Nats is #1, and everything else is 2nd. Many that attend the World Champs would love the opportunity to compete in Muncie.
Derek
I don't know if "fight" is the right word. After the first few responses it became clear that folks preferred keeping our current dates, and I immediately reported that - and shall continue to do so. One of the concerns I had was that we would be losing our Chief Judge. However, Mark Overmier said he just been notified that he will not be asked to judge at the World's, so that conflict has gone away (and no doubt a new one will start on that subject!)
When I hear that the NATs date issue was being discussed, I thought it was important to alert folks, mainly as an FYI. I did not expect the tone of some of the responses, but I guess that just means everyone cares. However the decision will not be made for a few weeks yet.
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I don't know if "fight" is the right word. After the first few responses it became clear that folks preferred keeping our current dates, and I immediately reported that - and shall continue to do so. One of the concerns I had was that we would be losing our Chief Judge. However, Mark Overmier said he just been notified that he will not be asked to judge at the World's, so that conflict has gone away (and no doubt a new one will start on that subject!)
When I hear that the NATs date issue was being discussed, I thought it was important to alert folks, mainly as an FYI. I did not expect the tone of some of the responses, but I guess that just means everyone cares. However the decision will not be made for a few weeks yet.
Thank you Dennis.
Derek
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One of the concerns I had was that we would be losing our Chief Judge. However, Mark Overmier said he just been notified that he will not be asked to judge at the World's, so that conflict has gone away (and no doubt a new one will start on that subject!)
As well it should.
Derek
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Dennis:
Thank you Dennis.
Gene
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