2018 NATs Planning - What We Know So Far

[Dennis Adamisin]

I know many folks are still heading home from THIS NATs, but we are learning a few things for Next Year that I wanted to share.

EVENT DIRECTOR:
We need one, and it absolutely will NOT be me. We have had numerous competitors in the primes of their competitive careers (Paul Walker, David Fitzgerald, Bob McDonald) and one in his come-back career (me) step up and take charge.  We have also had numerous people take on the Assistant Director role. I am calling for someone to step forward soon and start working on the 2018 NATs. 


DATES:
In 2018 the NATs CL dates coincide with the Control Line World Championships.  That would have a big effect on all the CL event so the AMA is talking to the various CL Sigs to try to figure out what to do.  at this point it boils down to:

A. Keep traditional NATs CL dates.  LOSE entries and several Volunteers in all the CL events as a result

B. Move CL to the week of July 1-7.  July 4 is Wednesday of that week

When discussing this with Yolanda Jones at AMA I said PAMPA would not be crazy about either choice but would support either choice.  Upon further review I think (of these choices)the July 4 week MIGHT have some advantages: fewer vacation days needed, family friendly firework shows (not involving dyna-jets) after dark.  However, that is awfully early in the year to host a NATs.  If we do not move it we will lose a few competitors, and at the very least, our Chief Judge.  Combat, Speed & Team Race would all be hammered.

According to Yolanda there was no availability later in the year - the AMA site is booked pretty heavily in August.  The only other possibility would have been before everything else, like mid June which I nixed on the spot.

[BillLee]

This MUST include a NATs date AFTER the F2  World Champs as well. Moving earlier is NOT the only option.

[Dennis Adamisin]

So far they have not figured out any way to go later.

[dennis lipsett]

So far they have not figured out any way to go later.

You could schedule it in August as a stand alone event but still part of the Nats competition.

[Dennis Adamisin]

You could schedule it in August as a stand alone event but still part of the Nats competition.

The NATs runs into the first weekend of August.  As I understand it the rest of the month of August is already booked for other events.

[Derek Barry]

In the past, the people who made trips to world championships rarely attended the Nats of the same year. So why would this be any different? If Mark is planning on judging in France, we could appoint one of the other seasoned veterans as a temporary replacement.

I say keep the dates that we already have.

Derek

[Dan McEntee]

   Without being able to see a planning calendar of what is scheduled for August, I would have to ask the AMA what it's priorities are? We are talking about the AMA Nationals, their premier event and their reason for even existing. I don't know what is scheduled but maybe dates could be swapped. Are the other activities model related? Again, I just have to think that the NATS should be the AMA's top priority for the use of the facility, which was one of the main reasons that the facility was acquired and built in the first place. This brings up another memory of a discussion about moving the traditional dates to take better advantage of potentially better weather wind wise? If I remember it was suggested to move into August because weather data showed winds decrease and les storm activity and lake effect in that month? I haven't had time to search for that thread but I think it was the open forum here.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

In the past, the people who made trips to world championships rarely attended the Nats of the same year. So why would this be any different? If Mark is planning on judging in France, we could appoint one of the other seasoned veterans as a temporary replacement.

I say keep the dates that we already have.

   Me too, we have dealt with this before, and it usually works out. It's probably moot from my perspective, it is very unlikely that I will be able to attend anyway as a competitor, much less ED. I am in charge of too many things already.

    Brett

[James Mills]

If the date had to be moved I would rather it be a bit earlier.  If we move the date to August we start to run into conflicts with school schedules so what Jr and Sr participation we do have may be lost. 

James

[Tim Wescott]

In the unlikely event that I came out next year, the 4th would be ever-so-slightly more likely -- but that's like, a teeny likelihood vs. a teeny-tiny one.  I'll probably just stay home, and hope that Sparky makes videos so that I can watch Dave F. fly and tell myself that I could do better.

[Steve Fitton]

Keep the dates we have.

[Randy Cuberly]

Well,
Sounds like the AMA is once again giving short shrift to CL Stunt (or CL in general)...Why is anyone surprised!

PHHHHHHHTTTTT... to the AMA!

Randy Cuberly

[Derek Barry]

Well,
Sounds like the AMA is once again giving short shrift to CL Stunt (or CL in general)...Why is anyone surprised!

PHHHHHHHTTTTT... to the AMA!

Randy Cuberly

I dont see it that way at all...

Derek

[Howard Rush]

Week of the 4th is fine with me. It would be a good warmup for the WC.

[Randy Cuberly]

I dont see it that way at all...

Derek

Then I'm afraid you don't see very well!

It really doesn't matter much to me.  It'll just be one more year when I'm not able to attend.  Still it seems like the AMA could do something about it and probably would if it was Big Time R/C or DRONES that really mean something to advertising and money!

Randy Cuberly

[Sean McEntee]

Move the team trials?

I know the Houston guys did a bang-up job in previous years, but the TT location and/or dates seem to be, from my uneducated estimation, a bit more...maneuverable?

[BillLee]

All of you stunt followers should keep in mind that the F2 World Champs and the NATs include other events as well, and taking the WChs competitors out of the mix makes a significant impact on the NATs.

It isn't just stunt!

[Will Hinton]

Well said, Bill.  And I agree with Derek and I see VERY well, thank you.  AMA bashing has gotten to the same level as racism.  They are percieved as not being able to do anything right, and that is a bunch of crap.
There, THAT should start some abuse of the site.

[Brett Buck]

Then I'm afraid you don't see very well!

      You are entitled to your opinion, but don't equate the competition and support people in the AMA with the larger "leadership" and direction of AMA. The support the AMA provides to the actual running of the Nationals, and the care they take to make it work, are beyond reproach. The effort put into the CL portion of the NATS is disproportionately large compared to the number of entrants. While there is the occasional disagreement, overall, they knock themselves out to make for a good contest.

      Note Bill's comment about the scheduling. Stunt can handle a few missing competitors, but events like TR might as well be cancelled if it conflicts with the WC. Understand that aside from stunt, the other events are *tiny* with very few individual entrants flying multiple classes or variations on the same event. We have one person per event, and there were (I think) 69 entrants in the official events and 30 or so in Beginner and Intermediate. Add in people who flew classic and OTS and not the regular AMA events, and you are over 100 distinct entries.

By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.

    Looking from afar, the AMA looks like one thing, when you are actually there, you get a completely different impression.

    Brett

[Doug Moon]

One way to look at this would be to ask those who are attending the WC if they would be able to do the nats if it were moved just a week before the WC event.  We are talking about moving the nats up 1 or 2 weeks.  I am not sure many can make the swing of the Nats and the WCs in such a close time frame, money and time wise. 

Ask those attending and see what the majority say and then make a decision. 

I like the nats later in the year away from the 4th.  We had it on the week of the 4th for years and it makes it harder all the way around. 

[Brett Buck]

I like the nats later in the year away from the 4th.  We had it on the week of the 4th for years and it makes it harder all the way around.

   And for whatever reason, earlier seems to get much more windy weather than later in the month. There's no real mechanism for it that I am aware of, but overall, we have done much better with this years scheduling than the early July dates.

     Brett

[Will Hinton]

   And for whatever reason, earlier seems to get much more windy weather than later in the month. There's no real mechanism for it that I am aware of, but overall, we have done much better with this years scheduling than the early July dates.

     Brett

Brett, you are spot on about the wind.  A typical spring here in this area will hold the flying to practically nothing until mid to late June.  Been that way since 1964 when I moved to this area.  Some years, like this one, it holds us back even later than that. 

[SteveMoon]

I think the 2018 NATS schedule should be left where it is. As previously stated, those competing in the WCs
often do not compete at the NATS in the same year. Also, none of this is news. The WCs happen every two
years and it is always difficult for competitors to attend both. It is in no way the AMA's fault that the FAI
has scheduled the CL WCs for the same week as the US NATS. Why should the AMA be bashed for that?

Personally, I am sick and tired of all the AMA bashing. Especially, from those who haven't attended or competed
in a NATS in the past ten or twenty years. I have either competed or judged at every NATS held in Muncie
and have always seen a high level of support for the CL events.

Later, Steve

[Dave_Trible]

My personal preference would be to leave it as is.  It's harder to get the time off around the holiday( working in retail sales) and we barely start getting flyable weather here by the last week or two in June.  This didn't used to be so but our seasons seemed to shift later these last few years.  We are flying almost till Christmas.  Again this is  what suits ME better but I get the other problems.  It was just 2-3 years ago AMA WANTED to move us to that earlier time frame and folks raised H E double hockie sticks until they relented.  If we lose the time slot for one year we may find it difficult to get it back. No one with the WC planning put much forethought into this.  The earlier suggestion that few would also be able to take in both events back- to-back seems sound to me.  Those who still are working likely won't have that much vacation time.  I know I could only do one.

Dave

[Derek Barry]

My personal preference would be to leave it as is.  It's harder to get the time off around the holiday( working in retail sales) and we barely start getting flyable weather here by the last week or two in June.  This didn't used to be so but our seasons seemed to shift later these last few years.  We are flying almost till Christmas.  Again this is  what suits ME better but I get the other problems.  It was just 2-3 years ago AMA WANTED to move us to that earlier time frame and folks raised H E double hockie sticks until they relented.  If we lose the time slot for one year we may find it difficult to get it back. No one with the WC planning put much forethought into this.  The earlier suggestion that few would also be able to take in both events back- to-back seems sound to me.  Those who still are working likely won't have that much vacation time.  I know I could only do one.

Dave

Very good points Dave. If we give up our spot, we may never get it back.

As stated before, this is not the first time there has been a scheduling conflict. Moving our Nats forward two weeks will not change anything. Those competing at the Nats on a July 4th week would have to leave directly from Muncie to go to France.

Derek

[Derek Barry]

Week of the 4th is fine with me. It would be a good warmup for the WC.

I hear ya, David...


Derek

[Randy Cuberly]

      You are entitled to your opinion, but don't equate the competition and support people in the AMA with the larger "leadership" and direction of AMA. The support the AMA provides to the actual running of the Nationals, and the care they take to make it work, are beyond reproach. The effort put into the CL portion of the NATS is disproportionately large compared to the number of entrants. While there is the occasional disagreement, overall, they knock themselves out to make for a good contest.

      Note Bill's comment about the scheduling. Stunt can handle a few missing competitors, but events like TR might as well be cancelled if it conflicts with the WC. Understand that aside from stunt, the other events are *tiny* with very few individual entrants flying multiple classes or variations on the same event. We have one person per event, and there were (I think) 69 entrants in the official events and 30 or so in Beginner and Intermediate. Add in people who flew classic and OTS and not the regular AMA events, and you are over 100 distinct entries.

By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.

    Looking from afar, the AMA looks like one thing, when you are actually there, you get a completely different impression.

    Brett

My biggest beef with the AMA and the Nationals is that they are always held in one of the worst weather places in the country in the summer time.  I still think the Nationals should be rotated to different parts of the country so they could actually be NATIONALS.  Muncie is very convienient for the AMA, and not so convenient for most of the rest of the people in the country!
That's the AMA not the competition organization.  The scheduling is done by WHO?

AMA bashing is not like racism at all.  It's bashing an organization that has become more of a political and commercial entity than an organization of modelers!  In fact considering their propensity for commercial products and insistence on holding the nationals in only one place if there is anything like Racism it's their attitude!

People need to stop equating racism to any old thing that happens to displease them.

Sorry, I just think the AMA needs to hear at every possible opportunity that there are modelers out here that don't like what they do...and BRETT you know dammed well I'm not talking about the Competition organization!

Randy Cuberly

[peabody]

I'm all for rotating the Nats to different locations.....in fact I have proposed it to both the PAMPAettes and to the AMA(I proposed alternating with Muncie). I would wager that the caravan of trailers is still in the big shed in Muncie.
Even the control line Nats require a BUNCH of gear, primarily the speed/racing cage, which I imagine has deteriorated a lot.
Dragging stuff for the whole Nats would be way out of the question.
Readers here tend to think of Stunt as the only CL Nats event.

I believe that the lack of Jr./Sr. participants sort of indicates that having the control line portion of the Nats in the summer, so school wouldn't be missed, is a non-starter. I'm certain that Farmland is open year round.

Highlights of early July is that Salem runs a couple races then, and the King's Royal is held at Eldora....

I believe that moving the event is a no go, but looking at less torturing weather might be doable?

Have fun!

[Derek Barry]

Personally, I am sick and tired of all the AMA bashing. Especially, from those who haven't attended or competed
in a NATS in the past ten or twenty years. I have either competed or judged at every NATS held in Muncie
and have always seen a high level of support for the CL events.

Later, Steve

I agree 100%. I hate to sound like a prick...... But, if you have not, do not, or have no intention to come to the Nationals, stay the hell out of the conversation! Those of us that spend thousands of dollars, and travel 100s to 1000s of miles to fly at one of the best stunt sites on the planet, do not need or want your input! The AMA is extremely accommodating to us, and anything we request is a minutes away. We ran out of cups for the ice cold water they provide, and within minutes thew were replenished. If the grass needs to be cut, mowers will run you off the circle to do their job in an efficient manner. The museum is full of control line planes, from every event.... So, in closing, listen to the people that actually go to the Nats, and keep your misinformed opinions to yourselves.

Derek 

[Dane Martin]

By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.

    Brett

Unfortunately, I was one of the absentees. I had every intent to go, but a lot of things happened all in one shot. Bad timing I guess. Hopefully that has no ill effects on future nats planning....

[Rich Perry]

      You are entitled to your opinion, but don't equate the competition and support people in the AMA with the larger "leadership" and direction of AMA. The support the AMA provides to the actual running of the Nationals, and the care they take to make it work, are beyond reproach. The effort put into the CL portion of the NATS is disproportionately large compared to the number of entrants. While there is the occasional disagreement, overall, they knock themselves out to make for a good contest.

      Note Bill's comment about the scheduling. Stunt can handle a few missing competitors, but events like TR might as well be cancelled if it conflicts with the WC. Understand that aside from stunt, the other events are *tiny* with very few individual entrants flying multiple classes or variations on the same event. We have one person per event, and there were (I think) 69 entrants in the official events and 30 or so in Beginner and Intermediate. Add in people who flew classic and OTS and not the regular AMA events, and you are over 100 distinct entries.

By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.

    Looking from afar, the AMA looks like one thing, when you are actually there, you get a completely different impression.

    Brett

 Brett,   

I want to clarify that for some reason with the combat scores, they list everyone as a DNF/DNS   that did not get a trophy.   The numbers for combat this year were way up, and believe me, we all flew.

 I am not sure what the impact on combat would be losing the team members, but it would probably be between 5 and 10. I know a couple that flew in as many classes as they could after the TT this year.

It has been my understanding that a consensus from the entire CL community will have to be reached on any date movement, as the AMA does not want to break up CL to cater to different dates.

 I am of the opinion that the dates should stay put, even though if they have to move, I would like to see the dates coincide with RC scale, as I plan to fly it next year (I was going to make the 1200 mile trip twice).   But since the CL stunt guys are scared of getting over flown by the RC scale group (even though scale move all the way across to site 4) I am sure this will not happen.

[James Mills]

I believe that the lack of Jr./Sr. participants sort of indicates that having the control line portion of the Nats in the summer, so school wouldn't be missed, is a non-starter. I'm certain that Farmland is open year round.

We had two in both Jr. and Sr. this year.  While that isn't a lot of kids it's better than changing to a different time of the year and dropping the number to zero.  Also, for those who have kids changing to a different time of year that interferes with the school calendar  could still have a negative effect on participation (spending vacation time with family during the summer as opposed to later in the year when the family can't travel). Not sure what the Farmland comment has to do with anything.
As far as rotating the Nat's.  Indiana is somewhat centrally located.  We start moving it around and it may may exclude those on the East/West coast depending on the location of the contest.

James

[James Mills]

I agree 100%. I hate to sound like a prick...... But, if you have not, do not, or have no intention to come to the Nationals, stay the hell out of the conversation! Those of us that spend thousands of dollars, and travel 100s to 1000s of miles to fly at one of the best stunt sites on the planet, do not need or want your input! The AMA is extremely accommodating to us, and anything we request is a minutes away. We ran out of cups for the ice cold water they provide, and within minutes thew were replenished. If the grass needs to be cut, mowers will run you off the circle to do their job in an efficient manner. The museum is full of control line planes, from every event.... So, in closing, listen to the people that actually go to the Nats, and keep your misinformed opinions to yourselves.

Derek

Well said Derek.

James

[Dave_Trible]

Brett,   

I want to clarify that for some reason with the combat scores, they list everyone as a DNF/DNS   that did not get a trophy.   The numbers for combat this year were way up, and believe me, we all flew.

 I am not sure what the impact on combat would be losing the team members, but it would probably be between 5 and 10. I know a couple that flew in as many classes as they could after the TT this year.

It has been my understanding that a consensus from the entire CL community will have to be reached on any date movement, as the AMA does not want to break up CL to cater to different dates.

 I am of the opinion that the dates should stay put, even though if they have to move, I would like to see the dates coincide with RC scale, as I plan to fly it next year (I was going to make the 1200 mile trip twice).   But since the CL stunt guys are scared of getting over flown by the RC scale group (even though scale move all the way across to site 4) I am sure this will not happen.

You we're doing OK until...... well let me say it sounds like you may not have attended the Nats Stunt event while RC Scale was happening on site 4.  Firstly AMA considers overflights enough of a problem that we have been restricted from using our own site for practice before the event begins.  Then we DO get overflights when some dude with buttons thinks he wants to impress us.  (We aren't) However it is an unwanted distraction.  They get warned but as far as I know not much else.  Afraid?  Try again.

Dave

[Reptoid]

      You are entitled to your opinion, but don't equate the competition and support people in the AMA with the larger "leadership" and direction of AMA. The support the AMA provides to the actual running of the Nationals, and the care they take to make it work, are beyond reproach. The effort put into the CL portion of the NATS is disproportionately large compared to the number of entrants. While there is the occasional disagreement, overall, they knock themselves out to make for a good contest.

      Note Bill's comment about the scheduling. Stunt can handle a few missing competitors, but events like TR might as well be cancelled if it conflicts with the WC. Understand that aside from stunt, the other events are *tiny* with very few individual entrants flying multiple classes or variations on the same event. We have one person per event, and there were (I think) 69 entrants in the official events and 30 or so in Beginner and Intermediate. Add in people who flew classic and OTS and not the regular AMA events, and you are over 100 distinct entries.

By comparison, *5* people appear to have flown in FAI Combat, which is usually one of the more popular events (5 people and 30 entrants, a huge number of which were DNS/DNF). I haven't bothered to check, but the same 5 people probably made up the majority of the Fast Combat field.

    Looking from afar, the AMA looks like one thing, when you are actually there, you get a completely different impression.

    Brett

Not sure where you got those numbers but here are the facts for combat at the 2017 Nats;
8 days of combat
50 pilots from 20 states: 34 flew in Team trials, 33 flew in F2D Nats, 21 flew in Fast, 20+ flew in 1/2 A, not sure on numbers for Slow or F2D fas,t but total matches = more than 300
30+ gallons of fuel burnt
200 or so ground hits
about 100 midairs
500 launches
more than 500 streamer cuts
more than 75 match kills
Crowning a four time in a row NATS champion (Ron Columbo)
25 or so trophies handed out

So, not exactly like you portrayed it

[Rich Perry]

  I was flying scale in 2014, and we removed a mandatory maneuver from standard scale pattern to help with the overfly issue.  So there were attempts being made at the time to help you guys out. NASA did completely solve the issue by not only moving to site 4 but changing the dates to  the 3rd week in June. 

[Dave_Trible]

  I was flying scale in 2014, and we removed a mandatory maneuver from standard scale pattern to help with the overfly issue.  So there were attempts being made at the time to help you guys out. NASA did completely solve the issue by not only moving to site 4 but changing the dates to  the 3rd week in June.

Thats appreciated.

Dave

[Dennis Adamisin]

Phasers back on stun everyone.  Remember that the problem here is that there is a date conflict with the World's and the AMA is trying to do find the best solution FOR all of CL, not against CL. As has been noted above, Stunt would probably be one of the less affected events; Racing, Speed & Combat would all take a beating. Combat had their largest entry in years - I hope they can continue that trend because it is good for all of us.


The AMA bashing relating to the NATs and CL (non-) support is simply incorrect. The AMA HQ Staff and Field crews do great work for us.  Some of the special things they did this year included:

* The Friday before CL started the Boys Scouts canceled out their food service.  Sunday morning when I arrived Yolanda reported this and said they were trying to find someone - we have a lot of County Fairs around this time of year and vendors are booked.  By Sunday afternoon AMA found a new (to the AMA site) vendor and about 10AM Monday an outfit called Grand Grilling showed up and proceeded to earn rave reviews for the week.  BTW Monday is the day the flyers all vanish shortly after noon to go get ready for Appearance Judging - so the new vendor set up then watched the field empty out!  I was very happy to see them back Tuesday and the rest of the week.

* We had the usual half dozen or so questions or problems with entries, I sent the people to Yolanda in the HQ - problems solved

* In the past the ED's have gone to Kinko's (or similar) in town to get the scoreboards printed.  This year I went to AMA Plan Service and had all the scoreboards printed on their 36" wide printer.  Only restriction was I had to be there between 10-5, this was only a problem on Thursday evening because I was a late getting it prepared.  By start of flying Friday it was all up.

* First day of qualifying was one of those 85 degree/85% humidity scorchers that Muncie is famous for.  One of the flyers suggested getting tents for the pull test judges.  I called it in and 15 minutes later the AMA site crew had 10x10 canopies set off in the grass behind the pull test machines.  In the past they have offered to do the same for judges but that of course is just not practical.

* We had a last minute problem with the numbers of Junior & Senior trophies, HQ got it fixed

* AMA has folks watching the weather, especially watching for lightening. They are a BIG reason we cleared out in time when the storms hit on Thursday.  In the past I was the ED for various Sailplane events and we learned that we could depend on the AMA weather watchers.

* Numerous other "invisible" stuff: The big greeting sign on the pavilion, the NFFS trailer with the PAMPA supplies box waiting for us, ice water & cups, toilet paper in the porta-johns plus servicing them all week, squeegees for wet concrete surfaces - it all gets done quickly with no drama.


The only thing that we could not do: Yolanda in HQ offered to print our score sheets; they routinely print carbonless score sheets for various other events.  We tried but OUR PROGRAM would not send the compatible collating formats to their printers.  Instead they let John Paris & I set-up our printer in the Board Room and print out the first 4 rounds of Qualifying Round score sheets.   BTW, later on, John Paris thought he figured out what we needed to do but we did not try it again.  That will be passed on and hopefully the next ED & his team can give it another go.

[Dave Edwards]

CL combat at the Nats has been growing every year for the past 6 years with more matches flown in Muncie this year than we have seen in a long, long time.

CL combat can expect to be significantly impacted by overlapping WC and Nats.  As a rough cut, consider this:  This year we had 34 entries in F2D.  I estimate that about 12 of these pilots will attend the WC, reducing Nats attendance by roughly 1/3.  I don't have a consensus of all the pilots, but I could expect the best turnout if the Nats precedes the WC by a few weeks and is used as a warm-up for those going to France.

[Randy Cuberly]

I agree 100%. I hate to sound like a prick...... But, if you have not, do not, or have no intention to come to the Nationals, stay the hell out of the conversation! Those of us that spend thousands of dollars, and travel 100s to 1000s of miles to fly at one of the best stunt sites on the planet, do not need or want your input! The AMA is extremely accommodating to us, and anything we request is a minutes away. We ran out of cups for the ice cold water they provide, and within minutes thew were replenished. If the grass needs to be cut, mowers will run you off the circle to do their job in an efficient manner. The museum is full of control line planes, from every event.... So, in closing, listen to the people that actually go to the Nats, and keep your misinformed opinions to yourselves.

Derek

Derek, although I know you're not one, you do indeed sound like a PRICK!  I have not attended the Nats because they are 2500 miles away from me and I cannot leave home for that long a time!  I pay my AMA dues same as you and have just as much right to voice an opinion about it as you do... Sheesh! win a contest or two and think you have the right to push the "little" People around.  I was a member of the stinking AMA before you were born, in fact maybe before your parents were born... So crawl back in you hole PUP!

I do realize that the Nats will never be rotated again!  Mostly because it seems folks like you don't give a dam and just roll over for everything the AMA says.  Best of luck with that!  Catch the bone Fido.

Now I'm done!

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

My biggest beef with the AMA and the Nationals is that they are always held in one of the worst weather places in the country in the summer time.  I still think the Nationals should be rotated to different parts of the country so they could actually be NATIONALS.  Muncie is very convienient for the AMA, and not so convenient for most of the rest of the people in the country!
That's the AMA not the competition organization.  The scheduling is done by WHO?

     The NATS has been in the middle of the summer forever, primarily, because school was out and juniors could attend. I agree with you about having to drag yourself 2400 miles year after year, the two weeks required for me to attend was a big factor in not being able to attend this year (and 2010 and 2012). We all predicted that this would slowly turn into a big Midwest/east coast local contest at some point, and it's headed that way.

   But, before that, the NATs itself was in some jeopardy, because the sport fliers screamed to high heaven every year about the cost of moving it around, and the budgets. It was becoming nearly impossible to find a site for the entire thing, and in many of those, it was compromised.

   The scheduling has been moved around to accommodate CL, and most recently to move the RC Scale to another week (very early in the cycle) to avoid overflights after the fiasco we had in 2015 - at least partly at my urging/suggestion. The dates we had this time are the best I know of - much later and it gets into August, which is even more miserable.

BRETT you know dammed well I'm not talking about the Competition organization!

   They are the ones responsible for the NATs, so if that's not what you meant, it was far from clear. The nitwit AMA EC members that you and I both have contempt for have nothing to do with the NATs, scheduling, dates, nothing. 

     Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

 
      They are the ones responsible for the NATs, so if that's not what you meant, it was far from clear. The nitwit AMA EC members that you and I both have contempt for have nothing to do with the NATs, scheduling, dates, nothing. 

     Brett

Apologies if that's true.  I was told by someone that should know that the EC was responsible for all budgeting and scheduling!  I will speak to the Gentleman again!

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

Apologies if that's true.  I was told by someone that should know that the EC was responsible for all budgeting and scheduling!  I will speak to the Gentleman again!

  "Responsible" means a lot of different things depending on perspective. At some point I am sure some self-style big-wig has to sign off on it, but it's the regular staff, Greg Hahn with the category directors and EDs that work out the details.

     Brett

[Mike Griffin]

How many total Control Line Participants attended the NATs this year?  I am talking about anyone who was flying anything with two wires exiting the wing?

Mike

[PJ Rowland]

Really people complain about travelling to USA when they live there?

Ive been to 3 now..  made top 20 twice and i venture to say travelled more than 2500miles to do so. 

This year you had 2 visitors from Japan..  each year you attract international competition which many others Nationals do not get. 

I think if you cant make the trip your not really serious about competition on the grandest stage. If you would prefer to roll out of bed and drive 5 miles to put a ringmaster up for a 320
5 then we should ALL be listening.

However if you like 28 hour flights just to the mainland then 2 more flights to Indianapolis..  then driving on the other side of the road.. travels with kids and takeapart planes just to experience stunt heaven then..  Muncie is it.  Just dont complain about it. 

I have to plan 18 months ahead of any US nats trip. you locals who are complaining are pathetic. 

[Randy Cuberly]

PJ,

I was competing seriously before you were born.  You will find out perhaps as you get older and have some responsibilities that it's not always cut and dried whether you compete or not.  Under the present circumstances it is simply not possible for me and a lot of my older friends who are serious competitors, some of which definitely outfly the likes of you, to travel and be away from home for long periods of time.  Yes it's easy for you to judge us.  Just be happy we can't make it or some of the folks like you would be further down the line in scores than you are if we could make it!  Count your blessings and shut up!

Randy Cuberly

[BillLee]

  "Responsible" means a lot of different things depending on perspective. At some point I am sure some self-style big-wig has to sign off on it, but it's the regular staff, Greg Hahn with the category directors and EDs that work out the details.

     Brett

Greg Hahn has been gone from AMA for some time.

As I have been told, there is no longer a NATs Mangement Team and the schedule is set up primarily by a salaried AMA employee (non-flyer). If you have a complaint or a suggestion, you need to contact your EC representative. That smacks an awful lot like the "big-wigs" setting the schedule.

[Mike Griffin]

Racism?  Pathetic Locals?  Stay the Hell out of the conversation?  WTF?   These are some of the most asinine statements I have ever heard on here.  There are over 4300 people registered on this forum and some of you sound like this is your own private playground.  Just keep in mind that the HUGE majority of people who fly control line airplanes do not care about the NATS and many have no idea what it even is.   THis conversation is beginning to sound like a bunch of snot nosed ivy league frat boys who think they are GOD's gift to model planes.  Good grief, stop taking yourselves so seriously.

Mike

[Trostle]

How many total Control Line Participants attended the NATs this year?  I am talking about anyone who was flying anything with two wires exiting the wing?

Mike

Why do you want to exclude the speed flyers?

Keith

[Brett Buck]

As I have been told, there is no longer a NATs Mangement Team and the schedule is set up primarily by a salaried AMA employee (non-flyer). If you have a complaint or a suggestion, you need to contact your EC representative. That smacks an awful lot like the "big-wigs" setting the schedule.

   It sounds a lot more like one of the regular AMA employees setting the schedule to me. I don't think the regular employees are the problem, I think it's the elected officials. Hansen isn't deciding to hold scale in June to avoid flyovers, he's too busy rushing to Washington to continue blurring the line between FPV drones from WalMart and scratch-built models that took 1500 hours to complete, and in other ways screwing the pooch.

    The AMA does a pretty good job at all the NATS I have gone to, I figure 21 pretty good ones in the 24 years is a respectable record.   When they f*ck up and get us wrapped up in with the FPV drones (which are DEAD CERTAIN to be regulated, even if it requires repealing the special rule for model aircraft) and put us out of business via their fairly predictable bumbling, THEN get wound up about it.

     This thread took a pretty strange turn, for something that happens almost every other year like clockwork.

     Brett

 p.s. BTW, no one here fails to realize that WC was almost certainly scheduled to cause this conflict, do they? I am sure it would do certain international egos a great deal of good to make people have to choose one or the other, or to eliminate some of the likely competitors. Of course, they might get a big surprise when more people choose the NATs. The same people managed to sabotage the carefully-laid and coordinated plans for the multi-circle format in 2004. Mon Dieu!