Jim and Charlie are two of the best! 😊
Wow! You mean Aviojet (Charles) is judging NATS?
I saw Charles and assumed it was the Stunt Hangar scale builder Charles (Aviojet).
I saw Charles and assumed it was the Stunt Hangar scale builder Charles (Aviojet). I don't know his last name.
My mistake, Sorry.
Now the two really fine gentlemen mentioned are the greatest at what they do.
About to begin Classis/N30 and Old Time. For flavor here is Jim Lynch and ‘Volunteer ‘.
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Go Jim!
I can think of no one more ideally suited, they could do it forever, if it was up to me.
Brett
Congrats to John, another fine craftsman and finisher that's flies his creations. H^^
Could not read the one board as it was so dark. Guess I need new glasses. D>K
Well, they're a little too generous to David.
About to begin Classis/N30 and Old Time. For flavor here is Jim Lynch and ‘Volunteer ‘.
Maybe you were not generous enough with them!
I kid, I kid!
Brett
How many in Open? How many in
Advanced? How many will qualify in Open?Same for Advanced? Dennis this will be obvious when you see the boards in the morning. I'm too tired and lazy to look it up tonight!
What’s the temp on the L-pad? (Joke HOT!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sparky 530.5. y1
Wind was from the east over five-foot corn. It made for unusual-for-Muncie turbulence.
Wind was from the east over five-foot corn. It made for unusual-for-Muncie turbulence.In Dallas we would call that perfect air!
It was surprising to see INTERMEDIATE scores high up in the 500's. WOW! Is that just "inflation", or is sandbagging going on?
It was surprising to see INTERMEDIATE scores high up in the 500's. WOW! Is that just "inflation", or is sandbagging going on?
It's just different judges. I see 600s coming from the left coast all the time, but it's pretty much impossible to fly a 600.
Not enough vortex generators.
Brett
It's just different judges. I see 600s coming from the left coast all the time, but it's pretty much impossible to fly a 600.With good air, a good ship and judges that follow the judges guide it is not only possible but likely that the top fliers will score 600 and up. Leaving room at the top implies that the judge does not recognize perfection when he/she sees it. Bracketing and base line ignore differences in the learning curve but having said that, Brett is 100% correct, the goal is to get the fliers ranked in the right order. An experienced judge will do that even if he/she is using SWAG. I disagree that there has been much inflation in the scores. Some perhaps, but at best it is about 20 points (40 if you take into account the reduction in appearance points) in the last 35 years and you can't tell me that the equipment is not 40 points better today.
Derek
IMPORTANT: Wonderful world of computers- the TOP FOUR Advanced from each circle will fly tomorrow!!!!!!! NOT Three!!!
IMPORTANT: Wonderful world of computers- the TOP FOUR Advanced from each circle will fly tomorrow!!!!!!! NOT Three!!!
But, your flying order for open tomorrow is problematic. See Gene Martine and Dave Trible. They fly back to back on different circles. Good luck.
My circle
Paul I'm not up to speed on how all that came down except that we were short an entry or two for the program to use the program percentage to calculate out to twenty. It spat out 16 and the last four were pencilled in-short of trying to re-write the program. I'm not savvy enough to know what else could have been done and what may need to be done for the future should we encounter this again. We may need to go back to the ping pong balls under certain circumstances. I will ask what might be done about Gene and I-otherwise I may go check out the roller skates at Walmart.....
But, your flying order for open tomorrow is problematic. See Gene Martine and Dave Trible. They fly back to back on different circles. Good luck.
Paul I'm not up to speed on how all that came down except that we were short an entry or two for the program to use the program percentage to calculate out to twenty. It spat out 16 and the last four were pencilled in-short of trying to re-write the program. I'm not savvy enough to know what else could have been done and what may need to be done for the future should we encounter this again. We may need to go back to the ping pong balls under certain circumstances. I will ask what might be done about Gene and I-otherwise I may go check out the roller skates at Walmart.....
Dave
Since your group was not savy enough, I would have been glad to help on what to do, but no one was interested.
20 names and ping pong balls would have avoided this, but you would have had to do the scoresheets by hand. That would not have taken that long.
I will go buy the ping pong balls and we can redraw the order in the morning if Darrell and the other nineteen agree............
My circle
My circleThanks Robert...didn't catch it.
It's just different judges. I see 600s coming from the left coast all the time, but it's pretty much impossible to fly a 600.
Derek
Unless your name is Dave or Paul
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
The issue was ..... " is this going to be the year we do away with the "top 20".I knew there had to be a good reason. Anything that appears as messed up as this has to have a computer in there somewhere. Now that we know about the problem, there are fixes. X number of "fake" flyers with low scores and all is well but I would hold off on assuming that the entries are going down. As we "boomers" that can still look up at the sky and not fall down come back into the hobby/sport we loved until family and career forced us out there may well be an upsurge for the next 5 or so years as soon as we figure out how to build one of these "car show" quality PA ships. I should be back in shape by next year and I know of others. Qualifying at the NATS is within my reach and is on my 'Bucket List'. I also may be totally wrong but I wouldn't drop the "Top 20" until the year after you get less than 20 entries.
Due to low entry the program wanted to cut the "top twenty" to a "top sixteen". Going with a top 16 would have been a piece of cake. Punch the button and the score sheets and posters come out easily. However, I can't imagine the uproar it would have caused if this year was the last of the top 20. I bet it would have been a much greater kerfuffle than the fact that excess time was spent getting a finals flight order.
Drawing pingpong balls would have required 288 extra scoresheet to have to be done by hand. Using the top sixteen results and the automated scoresheet feature, supplemented by a couple of dozen manual scoresheet was what was done. Is it perfectly fair to the four extra flyers ... no, but it seemed like the best solution.
I mean no disrespect to the program. Its a powerful tool. The contest didn't know the total event entry till Monday noon. To have a "top twenty", the program wanted a total of 32+ contestants. We didn't have that, nor did we foresee this problem.
So what is the provenance of the formula to reduce the semi finals flyers based on entry level. Quite honestly I don't know? I know its been discussed here, but is there a formal PAMPA NATS documented procedure? I don't think so.
Anyway, discussion with officials thought that one more year with a top twenty would be appropriate.
We didn't have that, nor did we foresee this problem.
We are underway on just a perfectly beautiful morning here with the light breeze blowing AWAY from the bright sun.Bob must be watching from above.
I apologize if this has been discussed. I have not been to a nats in long time but seem to remeber that top 20 day had two rounds, with groups of ten flying on each circle, then switching circles for the second round. Are they now flying two simultanious rounds of 20 on each circle with each flier taking his turn on both circles?
Not complaining or being critical in any way, just curious.
Congratulations to Don! He�s been kicking some serious stunt butt back in the middle of the country and you know why.
Steve MilletGreat pic. He sat in the circle with me in Houston for the Memorial weekend contest and called out manuevers for me when I done for my ever full pattern flight during my first OFFICIAL.. great guy and coach!
Congratulations to Don! He’s been kicking some serious stunt butt back in the middle of the country and you know why.Way to go Don! We are so happy we had the circles repaved in your honor.
Chris Cox takes the water bucket as Rookie of the Year.
snip: none of us are capable of a 600. snip
Derek
Congratulations to all contestants who made it into finals. What happens if a Canadian wins? H^^WWWAAAARRRRRR!!!!!
Hi Derek,
Just to take minor exception.
As long as the scores are determined by individual human assessment it can't be argued that 600 scores aren't achievable. if, by some twist of fate, stunt becomes big enough that Silicon Valley could make billions by creating algorithms or whatever it takes to digitally determine errors (and accept some individual's [or a "team" of individuals') assessment of how much to deduct from 40 for each "digitally indisputable" error (multiplied, perhaps by the magnitude of that error) then we would have the means by which to determine if none of the three of you is capable of such scores.
I've watched all of this year's top five fly some pretty indisputably excellent patterns and have flown a few pretty decent ones myself. To say that a human couldn't justifiably claim to have judged as fairly as he/she felt capable (they don't add them up as they go along, after all) has somehow "erred" when the total reaches a magic number is not, I don't believe, fair to the judge. It's just the way he/she saw and determined the value and degree of fault in each perceived error...in the course of maybe 10 to 15 seconds from beginning of that maneuver 'til the start of the next.
Not at all to be argumentative. Only to state an alternate point of view.
The left coast appears to have stacked the deck but it's the judges who'll pull the cards and the pilots who deal them and I've no doubt that you can deal with the best. Good flying (it ain't luck) tomorrow, my friend.
Ted
Shucks! I've flown a number of flawlessly perfect flights, scoring 600 with some of the toughest judges in the world watching me %^@ %^@!! Then the alarm clock goes off ..... LL~ LL~I have put up several 600+ patterns, just ask my stooge.....
Hey Derek,
Congrats on the Top 5 and good luck tomorrow. Here's one person's perspective on 600 point scores. Back when I first started to go to CL contests back in the early 90's I saw guys with patches sown on their "flying shirt" that hand MEMBER - 500 Club embroidered on them. I was told that in the past, a 500 point score was so rare that they actually formed a club. Not sure who the "they" was or how widespread patches like that were but I saw a number of them here in Southern California back then. By the early 90's at the contests I attended, expert score were above 500 but not by much and I'm talking former Walker Cup winners and the like. Not sure today anyone would form a 600 club but I thought the historical perspective would be interesting.
Regards,
Dave Sabon
'
Congratulations to Dan Banjock!! You almost made it into the top 5 and you didn't even use your jet stunter or your Fox 70. Your doing good, son!!
Thanks Dave,
I actually have a similar perspective. In the early 1990s Paul was unbeatable. Still to this day, I'm not sure if I have seen better looking patters. I'm pretty sure that his winning scores back then were in the 520s. I have watched scores get higher over the 28 years I have been attending the Nat's. As it has been stated in this thread, as long as the order is correct, the numbers don't really matter.
Derek
Open Semi Finals Scores
Y'all just about got those 600s!!
Great coverage. Made for an enjoyable rainy Saturday morning.
Does anyone have appearance points for the top five?
Thanks
Derek's folded before appearance judging. What a shame, but his back up was no slouch.Neither was his flying! Thanks Sparky for giving us this great coverage. Almost as good as being there (almost).
Chris Cox 20, with Paul, Howard & David at 19. Not sure about Derek, since he had to use his backup plane. I dunno if his primary plane's wing folded before or after appearance judging. D>K Steve
By gosh! Derek was right. Nobody can score 600! n1 n1 y1
Wayne and I had to leave this year afterTop Twenty qualifications (work was beckoning me home :(
These photos are the Advanced and Open aircraft at Appearance Judging. I didn't get much time at the Classic events, but they had some beautiful planes there as well. Scoreboards are the Final Results from Qualifying for Advanced and Open, which are the last I saw there.
Here is a link where you can download the photos:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rv1tqnokgbfo6a9/2018%20Nats.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/rv1tqnokgbfo6a9/2018%20Nats.zip?dl=0)
I believe you do have to have a free Dropbox account to download these files. You get two gigs of cloud space with the free offer. You can sign up below and then come back and click the link above:
https://www.dropbox.com/ (https://www.dropbox.com/)
If you don't want Dropbox, I can not easily get the photos to you because of their size.
Hope everyone enjoys them. It was a great Nats as usual and so nice to see all of our friends once again.
If you have never come to the Muncie Nationals for C/L Precision Aerobatics, you really don't know what you are missing. To see such high quality builders and flyers all in one place is an opportunity not to be lost. Everyone displays a great sense of family and you have never seen such a group of people so willing to help. This year my friend Paul Walker gave Ben Mills his older Impact/Bad News jet-like stunter for Ben to keep. That memory will stay with Ben for all his days. Just a great time and congratulations to all the pilots, judges, administrators, field workers, PAMPA and AMA for a job well done.
I am sorry if I did not get a photo of your plane or know who the builder was. Please reply if you want me to add your name to the aircraft and I will post those here separately.
Jim Smith