Author Topic: 2018 Nats Coverage (Read 19797 times)

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #100 on:** July 12, 2018, 02:40:36 PM »

I will go buy the ping pong balls and we can redraw the order in the morning if Darrell and the other nineteen agree............

Paul Walker · « **Reply #101 on:** July 12, 2018, 02:45:23 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on July 12, 2018, 02:40:36 PM

I will go buy the ping pong balls and we can redraw the order in the morning if Darrell and the other nineteen agree............

Too late, in the morning. Need time to manually do scoresheets.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #102 on:** July 12, 2018, 02:49:27 PM »

Just talked to Darrell. Actually he has the popping balls at the field. As of now he thinks it will stand as is but the group is headed back to the trailer to work on it. Paul you are welcome to attend.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #103 on:** July 12, 2018, 03:08:42 PM »

Quote from: RC Storick on July 12, 2018, 02:04:03 PM

My circle

Thanks Bob. I was going to ask about that circle.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #104 on:** July 12, 2018, 03:24:25 PM »

Quote from: RC Storick on July 12, 2018, 02:04:03 PM

My circle

Thanks Robert...didn't catch it.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #105 on:** July 12, 2018, 04:32:41 PM »

Revised flight order.....

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #106 on:** July 12, 2018, 05:14:04 PM »

A last tweak to swap the ‘Steves’ around to avoid a conflict.

Larry Fernandez · « **Reply #107 on:** July 12, 2018, 06:08:50 PM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on July 12, 2018, 11:31:32 AM

It's just different judges. I see 600s coming from the left coast all the time, but it's pretty much impossible to fly a 600.

Derek

Unless your name is Dave or Paul

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #108 on:** July 12, 2018, 06:21:13 PM »

Looks to me like just a wee bit of delay or expediency on either circle could result in Dave and Gene flying on both circles at the same time. That would be worth seeing!

Steve

Paul Walker · « **Reply #109 on:** July 12, 2018, 06:28:56 PM »

Hope Tom, Gene, Wes, and Dave know about this change before the morning!

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #110 on:** July 12, 2018, 06:42:23 PM »

All are aware except maybe Tom. He isn’t in the computer age-not connected. He left the field early and I doubt saw ANYTHING since even the first posting was quite a while later. He will likely just be on the field early anyway. Wes and Gene were at the field this evening.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #111 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:17:40 PM »

Quote from: Larry Fernandez on July 12, 2018, 06:08:50 PM

Unless your name is Dave or Paul

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

I have beaten them both, and none of us are capable of a 600. I understand that it is all relative, and as long as the right person wins, that's all that matters.

Derek

frank williams · « **Reply #112 on:** July 12, 2018, 07:39:30 PM »

The issue was ..... " is this going to be the year we do away with the "top 20".

Due to low entry the program wanted to cut the "top twenty" to a "top sixteen". Going with a top 16 would have been a piece of cake. Punch the button and the score sheets and posters come out easily. However, I can't imagine the uproar it would have caused if this year was the last of the top 20. I bet it would have been a much greater kerfuffle than the fact that excess time was spent getting a finals flight order.

Drawing pingpong balls would have required 288 extra scoresheet to have to be done by hand. Using the top sixteen results and the automated scoresheet feature, supplemented by a couple of dozen manual scoresheet was what was done. Is it perfectly fair to the four extra flyers ... no, but it seemed like the best solution.

I mean no disrespect to the program. Its a powerful tool. The contest didn't know the total event entry till Monday noon. To have a "top twenty", the program wanted a total of 32+ contestants. We didn't have that, nor did we foresee this problem.

So what is the provenance of the formula to reduce the semi finals flyers based on entry level. Quite honestly I don't know? I know its been discussed here, but is there a formal PAMPA NATS documented procedure? I don't think so.

Anyway, discussion with officials thought that one more year with a top twenty would be appropriate.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #113 on:** July 12, 2018, 08:22:03 PM »

Quote from: frank williams on July 12, 2018, 07:39:30 PM

The issue was ..... " is this going to be the year we do away with the "top 20".

Due to low entry the program wanted to cut the "top twenty" to a "top sixteen". Going with a top 16 would have been a piece of cake. Punch the button and the score sheets and posters come out easily. However, I can't imagine the uproar it would have caused if this year was the last of the top 20. I bet it would have been a much greater kerfuffle than the fact that excess time was spent getting a finals flight order.

Drawing pingpong balls would have required 288 extra scoresheet to have to be done by hand. Using the top sixteen results and the automated scoresheet feature, supplemented by a couple of dozen manual scoresheet was what was done. Is it perfectly fair to the four extra flyers ... no, but it seemed like the best solution.

I mean no disrespect to the program. Its a powerful tool. The contest didn't know the total event entry till Monday noon. To have a "top twenty", the program wanted a total of 32+ contestants. We didn't have that, nor did we foresee this problem.

So what is the provenance of the formula to reduce the semi finals flyers based on entry level. Quite honestly I don't know? I know its been discussed here, but is there a formal PAMPA NATS documented procedure? I don't think so.

Anyway, discussion with officials thought that one more year with a top twenty would be appropriate.

I knew there had to be a good reason. Anything that appears as messed up as this has to have a computer in there somewhere. Now that we know about the problem, there are fixes. X number of "fake" flyers with low scores and all is well but I would hold off on assuming that the entries are going down. As we "boomers" that can still look up at the sky and not fall down come back into the hobby/sport we loved until family and career forced us out there may well be an upsurge for the next 5 or so years as soon as we figure out how to build one of these "car show" quality PA ships. I should be back in shape by next year and I know of others. Qualifying at the NATS is within my reach and is on my 'Bucket List'. I also may be totally wrong but I wouldn't drop the "Top 20" until the year after you get less than 20 entries.

Ken

Howard Rush · « **Reply #114 on:** July 12, 2018, 08:38:31 PM »

Quote from: frank williams on July 12, 2018, 07:39:30 PM

We didn't have that, nor did we foresee this problem.

You could have foreseen the "problem" had you gone to the effort to try out the program or look at the materials I sent out. If you didn't like what it did, you could have brought up the issue before the contest.

RknRusty · « **Reply #115 on:** July 12, 2018, 09:04:27 PM »

There, I copied that dark Classic and N-30 score sheet to my computer and brightened it up.
Took 10 seconds. I hope that helps.
Rusty

Howard Rush · « **Reply #116 on:** July 12, 2018, 09:05:04 PM »

Here is an item on the subject. More later, but I want to fly some stunt tomorrow.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/yet-another-nats-item-stunt-circle-allocation/msg394897/#msg394897

john e. holliday · « **Reply #117 on:** July 12, 2018, 09:14:36 PM »

Well it is knuckle down time guys.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #118 on:** July 13, 2018, 06:53:02 AM »

We are underway on just a perfectly beautiful morning here with the light breeze blowing AWAY from the bright sun.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #119 on:** July 13, 2018, 07:02:56 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on July 13, 2018, 06:53:02 AM

We are underway on just a perfectly beautiful morning here with the light breeze blowing AWAY from the bright sun.

Bob must be watching from above.

Ken

Bruce Shipp · « **Reply #120 on:** July 13, 2018, 07:08:26 AM »

I apologize if this has been discussed. I have not been to a nats in long time but seem to remeber that top 20 day had two rounds, with groups of ten flying on each circle, then switching circles for the second round. Are they now flying two simultanious rounds of 20 on each circle with each flier taking his turn on both circles?

Not complaining or being critical in any way, just curious.

Thank you,

Bruce

Brett Buck · « **Reply #121 on:** July 13, 2018, 07:11:46 AM »

Quote from: Bruce Shipp on July 13, 2018, 07:08:26 AM

I apologize if this has been discussed. I have not been to a nats in long time but seem to remeber that top 20 day had two rounds, with groups of ten flying on each circle, then switching circles for the second round. Are they now flying two simultanious rounds of 20 on each circle with each flier taking his turn on both circles?

Not complaining or being critical in any way, just curious.

No, the flying is the same, but the numbering is just different. If you draw, say, 3 and 18, you fly third on circle 1 and second-to-last on circle 2.

Brett

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #122 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:24:44 AM »

Advanced SCORES!!!

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #123 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:26:18 AM »

Congratulations to Don! He’s been kicking some serious stunt butt back in the middle of the country and you know why.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #124 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:29:05 AM »

Gene Martine

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #125 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:30:43 AM »

Mike McHenry

James Holford · « **Reply #126 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:31:03 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on July 13, 2018, 09:26:18 AM

Congratulations to Don! Heï¿½s been kicking some serious stunt butt back in the middle of the country and you know why.

Don is a beast. Great guy too.. his wife us a wonderful gal as well.. always a blast when at a Cintest with Don!!!
Congrats buddy!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #127 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:33:58 AM »

John Hill’s Texan

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #128 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:35:09 AM »

Steve Millet

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #129 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:36:42 AM »

Matt Neumann

James Holford · « **Reply #130 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:37:28 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on July 13, 2018, 09:35:09 AM

Steve Millet

Great pic. He sat in the circle with me in Houston for the Memorial weekend contest and called out manuevers for me when I done for my ever full pattern flight during my first OFFICIAL.. great guy and coach!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #131 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:41:10 AM »

Open Semi Finals Scores

Airacobra · « **Reply #132 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:41:59 AM »

Love the 39 MIke! Good Luck!

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #133 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:44:25 AM »

Chris Cox takes the water bucket as Rookie of the Year.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #134 on:** July 13, 2018, 09:58:14 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on July 13, 2018, 09:26:18 AM

Congratulations to Don! He’s been kicking some serious stunt butt back in the middle of the country and you know why.

Way to go Don! We are so happy we had the circles repaved in your honor.

Ken - One of the butts he has been kicking!

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #135 on:** July 13, 2018, 10:06:31 AM »

Tomorrow’s flight order

Derek Barry · « **Reply #136 on:** July 13, 2018, 10:11:25 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on July 13, 2018, 09:44:25 AM

Chris Cox takes the water bucket as Rookie of the Year.

Not rookie of the year, first time in the top 5.

Derek

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #137 on:** July 13, 2018, 10:15:16 AM »

Thank you Derek. Long week. Rookie is Joe Daly.

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #138 on:** July 13, 2018, 10:49:06 AM »

Congrats to David, Paul, Derek, Howard and Chris. Should be a real shoot out tomorrow.

Great big week for Mr. Chris Concours! Good on him.

Big thank you to Darrel for taking on a huge task and getting it done, by the way. I've been a fly on the wall for a few of those administrative battle fields and know it ain't easy to get the job done. One more day, Darrel!!!!

Ted

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #139 on:** July 13, 2018, 11:13:29 AM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on July 12, 2018, 07:17:40 PM

snip: none of us are capable of a 600. snip

Derek

Hi Derek,

Just to take minor exception.

As long as the scores are determined by individual human assessment it can't be argued that 600 scores aren't achievable. if, by some twist of fate, stunt becomes big enough that Silicon Valley could make billions by creating algorithms or whatever it takes to digitally determine errors (and accept some individual's [or a "team" of individuals') assessment of how much to deduct from 40 for each "digitally indisputable" error (multiplied, perhaps by the magnitude of that error) then we would have the means by which to determine if none of the three of you is capable of such scores.

I've watched all of this year's top five fly some pretty indisputably excellent patterns and have flown a few pretty decent ones myself. To say that a human couldn't justifiably claim to have judged as fairly as he/she felt capable (they don't add them up as they go along, after all) has somehow "erred" when the total reaches a magic number is not, I don't believe, fair to the judge. It's just the way he/she saw and determined the value and degree of fault in each perceived error...in the course of maybe 10 to 15 seconds from beginning of that maneuver 'til the start of the next.

Not at all to be argumentative. Only to state an alternate point of view.

The left coast appears to have stacked the deck but it's the judges who'll pull the cards and the pilots who deal them and I've no doubt that you can deal with the best. Good flying (it ain't luck) tomorrow, my friend.

Ted

Abi · « **Reply #140 on:** July 13, 2018, 11:22:58 AM »

Congratulations to all contestants who made it into finals. What happens if a Canadian wins?

James Holford · « **Reply #141 on:** July 13, 2018, 11:24:32 AM »

Quote from: Abi on July 13, 2018, 11:22:58 AM

Congratulations to all contestants who made it into finals. What happens if a Canadian wins?

WWWAAAARRRRRR!!!!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Jim Carter · « **Reply #142 on:** July 13, 2018, 11:25:56 AM »

Shucks! I've flown a number of flawlessly perfect flights, scoring 600 with some of the toughest judges in the world watching me

!! Then the alarm clock goes off .....

Derek Barry · « **Reply #143 on:** July 13, 2018, 12:14:11 PM »

Quote from: Ted Fancher on July 13, 2018, 11:13:29 AM

Hi Derek,

Just to take minor exception.

As long as the scores are determined by individual human assessment it can't be argued that 600 scores aren't achievable. if, by some twist of fate, stunt becomes big enough that Silicon Valley could make billions by creating algorithms or whatever it takes to digitally determine errors (and accept some individual's [or a "team" of individuals') assessment of how much to deduct from 40 for each "digitally indisputable" error (multiplied, perhaps by the magnitude of that error) then we would have the means by which to determine if none of the three of you is capable of such scores.

I've watched all of this year's top five fly some pretty indisputably excellent patterns and have flown a few pretty decent ones myself. To say that a human couldn't justifiably claim to have judged as fairly as he/she felt capable (they don't add them up as they go along, after all) has somehow "erred" when the total reaches a magic number is not, I don't believe, fair to the judge. It's just the way he/she saw and determined the value and degree of fault in each perceived error...in the course of maybe 10 to 15 seconds from beginning of that maneuver 'til the start of the next.

Not at all to be argumentative. Only to state an alternate point of view.

The left coast appears to have stacked the deck but it's the judges who'll pull the cards and the pilots who deal them and I've no doubt that you can deal with the best. Good flying (it ain't luck) tomorrow, my friend.

Ted

Well, I can't argue with your logic on this one. If I score a 600, I'm certainly not going to complain about it. 😂

My original comment was meant to be (somewhat) tongue in cheek.

Thanks for the kind words Ted, I will try my best to send all your friends home, with their tails between their legs. 😉

Derek

Dave Sabon · « **Reply #144 on:** July 13, 2018, 01:15:24 PM »

Hey Derek,
Congrats on the Top 5 and good luck tomorrow. Here's one person's perspective on 600 point scores. Back when I first started to go to CL contests back in the early 90's I saw guys with patches sown on their "flying shirt" that hand MEMBER - 500 Club embroidered on them. I was told that in the past, a 500 point score was so rare that they actually formed a club. Not sure who the "they" was or how widespread patches like that were but I saw a number of them here in Southern California back then. By the early 90's at the contests I attended, expert score were above 500 but not by much and I'm talking former Walker Cup winners and the like. Not sure today anyone would form a 600 club but I thought the historical perspective would be interesting.

Regards,
Dave Sabon

'

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #145 on:** July 13, 2018, 01:44:52 PM »

Robert Storick

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #146 on:** July 13, 2018, 01:45:16 PM »

Quote from: Jim Carter on July 13, 2018, 11:25:56 AM

Shucks! I've flown a number of flawlessly perfect flights, scoring 600 with some of the toughest judges in the world watching me !! Then the alarm clock goes off .....

I have put up several 600+ patterns, just ask my stooge.....

Ken

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #147 on:** July 13, 2018, 01:46:48 PM »

Bob McDonald

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #148 on:** July 13, 2018, 01:47:29 PM »

Paul Walker

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #149 on:** July 13, 2018, 01:48:10 PM »

Tom Morris