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Author Topic: Hinging explained  (Read 1865 times)

Online Paul Taylor

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Hinging explained
« on: November 23, 2017, 05:30:19 PM »
Can we talk about hinging what is it? What causes it and how to correct it.
 What I think it is.
Plane is making a turn and the wing flaps or bobbles.
 
Maybe too much tip weight.
Paul
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2017, 05:55:05 PM »
Yar , that leadd out there just keeps on a goin .

Theres one or two other things, like FLAPS , to. . . unfortunately . And Line Even .

Though hingeing IN is less to be advised than OUT .

The little old Peacemaker Profile ( Flite Streak ) will do a credible job in the wind of keeping the lines tight hingeing Outward ,
As long as its outward upright AND inverted . othewise its WARPS , or the corriolous effect .

' P ' Factor is anuder consideration , alas .



Despite otherers opinions , ( a wool tuft test would authenticate / individualise , per airframe .)



This ones more when the bottoms fallen out of the air . A Hole . Or where you c*#ked it up , and turned to tight ,
semi stalled , or a strong gust stalled progress, and The Engine Resonded - to ( attempt to ) maintain the equilibrium ( airspeed )




For every action there being a equal and opposite reaction . ( Einstien , ghandi , Jesus Christ , or someone ) %^@ ;D

The ACCELERATIVE FORCE ( Relative to the atmosphere ) generates a TOURGUE REACTION ,
Thus if your model wallows in every turn ( What Mine  ::)) The PROP will partially Revolve The Aeroplane .

All of which are the Er , Contributors ( in Extremus ) to thowing a tip , described as hingeing . Worst when the Axis is the INNER Wingtip .

Seeing the pictures all came from HERE , heres Here. http://allrcflight.com/airplane-turning-tendencies/   R%%%% H^^

This'll be be no means the ' Final word ' inna da Debate .
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 06:47:57 PM by Matt Spencer »

Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2017, 06:48:26 PM »
Thanks.  Sounds like maybe too much prop will cause hinging?
Paul
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 07:18:35 PM »
Can we talk about hinging what is it? What causes it and how to correct it.
 What I think it is.
Plane is making a turn and the wing flaps or bobbles.
 
Maybe too much tip weight.


If I understand your questions, yes, maybe too much tip weight.

I think they deserve a more detailed look, because they touch upon several things I've observed when people talk about stunt.

Can we talk about hinging what is it?

Who knows?  It's another of those terms known only to stunt.  There's no textbook you can look it up in.  My guess is that people mean a rotation about the axis tangent to the airplane's direction of flight, and that the rotation angle increases with wing lift.  To wit, you can see the bottom of the wing in inside maneuvers and the top of the wing in outside maneuvers.  Furthermore, I think people mean a steady-state phenomenon: the rotation (roll, but that definition requires a little qualification) angle stays constant as long as the lift stays the same. 

What causes it?

The rotation comes from a moment (torque) that's balanced by line tension acting through the distance above or below the airplane CG.  The torque comes from aerodynamic forces and airplane inertia, but that doesn't tell you much.  Folks will tell you that the lift is acting to the inside of the flying circle from the CG, which is to say that when you gather up all the aerodynamic forces acting perpendicular to the airflow and not in the direction toward or away from the pilot, they are equivalent to a force acting at one point, and that point is to the inside of the flying circle from the CG.  That doesn't tell you any more.  More later; time for Thanksgiving dinner.
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Offline Gordon Van Tighem

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2017, 07:41:51 PM »
Tail heavy?
Gord VT
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2017, 08:09:16 PM »
Now satiated, I'll go on.

...how to correct it.

Assuming that your definition of hinging is what I think the usual definition is, and that there's nothing awfully wrong with your airplane, just take out some tip weight.    Better, though, is to follow the trim process.  Start here: http://www.flyinglines.org/pw.trimflow1.html
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2017, 08:13:59 PM »
Sounds like maybe too much prop will cause hinging?

Not if your definition of hinging is what I guessed above. I can think of nothing the prop can do that affects roll as a function of lift.  Matt may also have a different definition of hinging.  I can't tell.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2017, 09:30:25 PM »
Matt may also have a different definition of hinging.  I can't tell.

 I can't EVER tell what Matt is talking about.

 
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2017, 09:46:14 PM »
Not if your definition of hinging is what I guessed above. I can think of nothing the prop can do that affects roll as a function of lift.  Matt may also have a different definition of hinging.  I can't tell.

I'm not trying to be critical because I think it must simply be a condition of different culture and language, but frankly I have great difficulty trying to figure out exactly what Matt is talking about most of the time.
He seems like a good fellow and I'm convinced He knows what he is talking about, and He's trying to be helpful but there is a breakdown in communication there somewhere!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2017, 10:08:42 PM »
Although I don’t much like beer, Matt is one of the people I’d most like to have one with sometime.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2017, 11:23:26 PM »
I always thought hinging was the apparent dipping or rising of the OB wing during a hard turn. Too much tip weight and the inertia of the heavy OB win resists a change in direction, causing its change in direction to lag behind the inboard wing; appearing to dip in an inside turn or rise in an outside turn. I check for it in flight by flying level at 45 degrees and yanking it up or down and see if the OB wing presents itself to me either above or below the fuselage. Some tight lazy 8s or square loops can help you look for it too.

I could be mistaken, but he Vertical CG might also cause or add to this hinging, so changing the weight of the LG might help it. Two things should always be checked during bench trimming while hanging the plane from neutral leadouts. To confirm if the wing, as viewed from the LE hangs vertically compared with a straight post or other vertical reference in the background(vertical CG). And also while hanging it and looking from the side to check your yaw.

I think we all do this second yaw check, making sure the fuse is a degree or 2 nose-down to set your beginning leadout position for the maiden flight. It's also a convenient time to check the vertical CG.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2017, 10:05:41 AM »
Warbird, you have to consider that Matt is on the bottom side of this great planet.   He has been good/kind enough to send me plans of his Folkerts that I need to get started on.  He used to post a lot on the Barton site.  Even though I don't drink alcoholic beverages any more I would like to have a cup of coffee with him and get to know him better. H^^

Simple hinging is that the out board wing wants to go the opposite direction of where the in board wing wants to go.  I think that is right. ???
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2017, 10:26:21 AM »
My best guess is that a long time ago someone named it hinging as opposed to rolling, because in rolling both wings move in opposite (uhh as in one up, one down not really opposite) directions.  But, because the centripetal force of the tether at the wing tip in Control line models, somewhat prevents the inboard wing from rolling, the general effect is of hinging like a door about the inboard wing tip.
That's not intended to be a dynamic analysis but it is a fairly good description of what I believe happens.  Hence some clever gentleman named it hinging!  The first time I heard it called that was in 1955 and I would guess it was around before that!

Hey Howard, maybe you should do an Aerodynamic text on control line functions and add it there!  <=

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2017, 11:57:59 AM »
I can't EVER tell what Matt is talking about.

What he said  n~
Words Spoken by the first human to set foot on Mars... "Now What?"

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2017, 06:32:07 PM »
Although I don’t much like beer, Matt is one of the people I’d most like to have one with sometime.

Make That Whiskey  ;D .

Lateral / Transverse Roll ( in the line of the lines . ) ( if they kept going through the outboard tip .)

But will usually induce a Yaw , perhaps . ( hence keeps the lines tight if even upright & inverted. Which is better than going into the tarmac with the wings level , and the lines loose , in Kite Flying Weather  ) .

I THOUGHT YOUSE BLOKES went for the assymetric / wider outside FLAP CHORD , so you can run adequate Tip Weight for inertia to keep the lines tight .or more importantly the plane out at the end of them .

Hence the wider flap to prevent the tip flinging unsightlyly . As it ( the Tip ) drops , it usually has greater wake drag , so ya get yaw . In moderation on a yucky profile , it assists line tension .
CONVERSELY if the INNER Tip Drops on Insides ( & raises on outsides ) theres a chance the aeroplane will go for your teeth , or suchlike . As In ' Swing In At Ya ; . WOT .

Thus hinging is lateral roll OUT , droping ( downward / outward ) The Outer wing tip .

Is It Not .

Oversize prop on the P-51 ( 13 x 6 Zinger ) had presumeably the ' P ' effect , causing it ( the linetension too ) to go V Light on INSIDES . Atrociously . Step back and the like . Fine on outsides .

SO if the hinging ISNT the same but opposite , on insides and outsides , it'd suggest that tip Wt isnt the only place to look .
Though Id Think , with a ' strong switch ' if consistant the moment the nose turns , overproping WOULD get ' roll . , but it'd be left tip DOWN , insides .

The stupid profile twins , usually good to excellent , on a bad day however - can try'n get ya . Haircut - prop in the teeth n that . With NO Trim alteration between ,
Some days the inner wing'll go way low , running outer only . Some Days rounds & wingovers are fine on the outer .

Which suggests heavy planes are more sussceptable to climatic influance on trim / flight .

Wheres a aerodynamically clean ship such as a S V or Mr Fanchers will tend a lot less to divergance . Thus are too easy .  VD~ S?P LL~

Plank Wing suckers tend to ' hook a tip ' , where the disturbed airflow can cause drag - loss of lift - yaw - roll - & hair standing on end for the pilot .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generally if one is being specific , one should say what flavour of aeroplane ( Design . airplane ) WEIGHt , Flying Site Altitude - barometer - winter - summer - if theres any ' lift in the air ' .
The pioneers flew at dawn or dusk , not to avoid thermals - but to get smooth air . its generally not as hot then thus DENSER too , better LIFT .

Whereas hot thin air the situation being more demanding , trim / out of trim issues are likely more evident .

ALSO your flaps . If ones much harder or softer than the other - you get that sort of thing .
The old Magnum wing Genisis hand me down - with way soft timber untissued flaps , that keep twisting in the sun , and Im wondring now if are 3/16 ( In other words they ( too  :P) NEED REPLACING .

Some people get horrified if you grasp an aerplane and twist and wrench extremities and pieces. Such as CONTROLS . ( of which flaps are a component ) But TESTING there Ridgidity ,
Or mor correctly to see they DONT missalign under what one would forsee as reasonable forces . Which get a bit unreasonable when its blowing like stink .

The FOLKERTS John , was concieved around 76 for flying in ' We Sometimes get 40 Knots ' . where you have to drive it onto the deck so its downwind stopped , as its gonna go DOWNWIND if it isnt going .
Its been flown in 30 Knots ( full Schedule ) ditto regularly in 20 +  ( 15 to 25 ) at Whangaporoa ( when they were cancelling the Americas Cup as Too Windy . The Drivers. The Boats would desintegrate .





Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2017, 07:11:02 PM »
A Mild Breeze .



A 60 Ft Schooner ' New World ' or George Kisskaden from San Francisco , left a WAKE of FIVE INCHES in calm weather & sea , doing 3 to 5 knots .

THAT IS there was a little dip then hump of ' white water ' about One Inch wide , and Five or Six inchs Long , from a 60 foot long schooner . When it got moving it was another thing .
 10 or 12 knot breeze'd start to do that , move it out & crank it over .

HOWEVER one can see that ' the disruptions ' can be somewhat more predominant . The POINT BEING when everthings Going Easy , the interface/ wake / interaction may be a good deal more dramatic under duress .
Whispers of Wellington , a 40 footer , designer aboard , was recording 45 mph WATER SPEED in a Cycone . Winning the Wellington to Gisbourne race buy a few hours clean , back around 73 74 .
Takes a few days to ' come down ' after existing ' in extremiss such as that .This One .

Apparently there was about 2 in ' shivering ' longitudeinal wave deflection ( the 2 in being transverse - amoungst other things ) 2 x Glass over Dual 3/8 Ply over spruce stringers on light teak braced frames .
stringers are about 1 1/2 x 1 . Frames about 2 x 1 ply braced at junctions as ' hard chine ' . as in the hulls not round X- section .

THEREFORE under extreme conditions our Airframes may ' deflect ' . We DONT want Deflection in the Control System or Surfaces - Under the Operating Loadings . Thus giving things a twist , to see if theyll stand up
is a wise move . And could preempt a abrupt ceasation of course .

Vee Haff had zat fiqured back zen .

Real Boats . 1901 Americas Cup .



just smart assed nancy boys these days , playing up for the television .  S?P S?P VD~

Right . Now Where Were we .  ;D H^^

Common Blokes . Launch into it . WHATS HINGING and wherefore art too , thou . Also .

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2017, 08:47:32 PM »
Warbird, you have to consider that Matt is on the bottom side of this great planet.

 I know, and I get that and mean no offense, it's just that I can't help wondering if he ever goes back and tries to read his own stuff? I try to read Matt's stuff quite often and can rarely decipher much of it. Is there an online translator that converts to English from Spencer?  ;D
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Hinging explained
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2017, 10:18:47 AM »
I now wonder if he the same problems decoding what we post. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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