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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Dave_Trible on October 08, 2015, 04:11:33 PM
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I arrived this afternoon and was greeted by Frank Williams . Some faces on hand are Orestes, Josias, Paul , Howard , Wes, Eric , Frank McMillin , Joe and all their lovely wives. I have to report one wash out- me. My new take- apart parted with the outboard wing in a square eight, flight four for me today. It sheared just outside the mounting hardware. Not a hardware failure but an airframe stress failure of the 3/8 sq. spars. I'm being goaded to fly a borrowed ship so Rich Oliver is enroute with a backup. Hope I can keep this in one piece. Frank Williams also offered me one of his ships but I wanted to use my engine which isn't a good drop in fit (PA .75 to RO Jett .76) so we opted for one of Richards.
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Just before...
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Just after...
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Could you post a close up of the break? I'm wondering what actually broke, and how one might prevent it if one were to build a take-apart.
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Could you post a close up of the break? I'm wondering what actually broke, and how one might prevent it if one were to build a take-apart.
Yes Tim I will. It's back in the car right now but I'll get it out in the morning.
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Seems to be in the air, as it were. Looking forward to hearing the progress and results.
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Here is a close up. It sheared right where the ply web ended.
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Here is a close up. It sheared right where the ply web ended.
Thanks Dave. I'm not sure what would have kept that from happening. It's a sobering picture, to be sure.
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Just launched this Billy Bird for Chris Rud.
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Thanks Dave. I'm not sure what would have kept that from happening. It's a sobering picture, to be sure.
Carbon tows top and bottom of spars. Tapered ends to the plywood instead of a stress riser square end.
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Just launched this Billy Bird for Chris Rud.
Now that's an airplane! Beautiful!
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Carbon tows top and bottom of spars. Tapered ends to the plywood instead of a stress riser square end.
Yeah, I agree completely with this statement from Bill! Especially with the landing gear in the wing, it opens the potential for some prior damage at that spot due to rough landings etc. Not that I think Dave would ever have a rough landing... Carbon is cheap insurance in the center section.
Really sorry Dave...loss of a good airplane is always like losing a friend.
Incidentally, It's possible to mount a PA75 in ROJett mounting hole pattern by slotting the rear mount holes in the PA to 18 mm on center. In other words making the rear mounting hole in the PA approx .117 longer to the front. I've done it myself.
A couple of flat washers under the mounting bolt head keeps the bolt from loosening under vibration.
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Saw a plane at the nats that had that kind of a failure. Trying to use lightweight wood in small sections for spars is asking for trouble.
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Yeah, I agree completely with this statement from Bill! Especially with the landing gear in the wing, it opens the potential for some prior damage at that spot due to rough landings etc. Not that I think Dave would ever have a rough landing... Carbon is cheap insurance in the center section.
Really sorry Dave...loss of a good airplane is always like losing a friend.
Incidentally, It's possible to mount a PA75 in ROJett mounting hole pattern by slotting the rear mount holes in the PA to 18 mm on center. In other words making the rear mounting hole in the PA approx .117 longer to the front. I've done it myself.
A couple of flat washers under the mounting bolt head keeps the bolt from loosening under vibration.
. Hi Randy. Frank , Richard, Joe and I chewed on it but Richard told us we'd have to slot the back holes of my RO Jett and being as my fortunes here are diminished, I couldn't see grinding on the engine. Rich is meeting me here with one of his this morning and I can just drop what I have in and learn to fly it. I'm not seeing any engine damage so that much I should understand today. Haven't checked the pipe for leaks but I've got an extra with me. Just wish work and weather would have allowed me more practice the last couple weeks- this would have happened at home and I'd have brought a one piece ship. I think a couple near- misses with a wing mounting that cracked loose the first few flights and a screw that came out in flight a few weeks ago likely did some unseen damage before what happened yesterday.
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I took this one the day the screw came out.
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I've seen this movie. This last year's when I left a screw out. Old timer's disease HB~>
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Mike we could have an ugly girl contest here...The meeting is about over and here is the line up for Day 1:
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. Hi Randy. Frank , Richard, Joe and I chewed on it but Richard told us we'd have to slot the back holes of my RO Jett and being as my fortunes here are diminished, I couldn't see grinding on the engine. Rich is meeting me here with one of his this morning and I can just drop what I have in and learn to fly it. I'm not seeing any engine damage so that much I should understand today. Haven't checked the pipe for leaks but I've got an extra with me. Just wish work and weather would have allowed me more practice the last couple weeks- this would have happened at home and I'd have brought a one piece ship. I think a couple near- misses with a wing mounting that cracked loose the first few flights and a screw that came out in flight a few weeks ago likely did some unseen damage before what happened yesterday.
Hi Dave,
Sorry, I guess I must have misunderstood what you said in your original post. I thought you had a PA75 and wanted to install it in an airplane that was drilled for a RO Jett. Apparently it's the other way around (You have a RO Jett engine) and that is more difficult and risky in my opinion. Still possible but things get a little thin at the rear of the mount. I don't think I would do that either.
I hope you can get something in the air to fly. Richard certainly has some good flying stuff!
Randy Cuberly
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Dave, I'm surprised you didn't have a back up plane with you. Tough about the wing separating like that as it looked good while you were flying here. By the way looks like you have a tougher group to fly with. Anyway you all have fun this weekend. H^^
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Bill's Junar,is that the one with 3500 flights on it.
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I guess Paul, Howard and Orestes don't count as "tough competition".
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I guess Paul, Howard and Orestes don't count as "tough competition".
~^ ~^ ~^ ~^ n~
Must be talking about Paul Stukey, Howard Johnson, and Orestes Peterson... Don't know about them!!! LL~ LL~ LL~
Randy Cuberly
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It was a hard afternoon of practice for all in the 93 degree heat. Tonight most gathered for socializing and dinner at Watsons grill. I had the pleasure of sharing conversation and fine food with Riley Wooten , Gill Causey and spouses.
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https://twitter.com/search?q=bathurst+crash&ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^search
and you think youve got problems ! :P
Sorry to hear the aeroplane snapped . :( At least it looks like a enjoyable meeting .
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We are at the mid point/ lunch break here. Each has two scores on the board and two to go. The wind got pretty sporty this morning but is starting to lay down and get hot. I didn't see a forecast but would guess we'll be in the low 90s. Here are a couple shots during lunch.
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Dave, Sorry for the loss of you plane. And where it happen. Team trials.
Good luck Dave;
Gordy
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Dave, Sorry for the loss of you plane. And where it happen. Team trials.
Good luck Dave;
Gordy
Thank You Gordy! We are flying thanks to Richard but I'll have to live to fight another day. I'm still getting my money's worth !!! :)))
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I'm glad that Richard was able to bail you out. It is a shame that you lost your plane.
Thanks for the pictures, we would be lost without you. It hurts not being there since I know almost everyone.
How many contestants are there?
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Just launched this Billy Bird for Chris Rud.
Tell us about the power plant for this outstanding aircraft.
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Tom I think it was said 17 entries.
As far as the Junar I just looked in and it's a PA- I think maybe the .51. I have Billy's new one but he still had one he ran and I think this is it.
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I believe Chris is running a PA .61 in the Junar.
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I believe Chris is running a PA .61 in the Junar.
I am also there in spirit in the nose of that airplane lies my extension. LL~
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I just asked Chris and indeed it is a .61 in the Junar.
Circle 2 is done and Dave Fitzgerald just landed on 3. Josias will go then all qualifying rounds have been complete. The scores are coming very fast so we'll have results soon.....
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whos winning top 3?
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So, how does this work? Does a "Q" at the end mean you're qualified for the team? Or, does that mean you've qualified for the final round?
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Today was to determine the top 10 qualifiers to fly for the three member team plus an alternate tomorrow. Here is the fight order for tomorrow:
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The number eleven spot by tradition, will fly the warm up flight for the judges in the morning. I had this honor the last time.
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Thanks Dave for the explanation.
Go Joe!
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So, how does this work? Does a "Q" at the end mean you're qualified for the team? Or, does that mean you've qualified for the final round?
It means that the atrocious square eights you did in both flights on circle 2 today will be expunged from your record, and you can start anew tomorrow with a clean slate and a clean mind.
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If we can't get a truly great US team out of this group of stunt studs we need a new breeding regimen!
You all go do it tomorrow (especially David...gotta show a bit of homeboy partisanship ya know n1 n1 y1 y1.)
Ted
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Thanks Dave for he explanation.
Go Joe!
Congrats to Joe Gilbert for making the Top 10.
Tulsa's rootin' for ya!
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Congrats to Joe Gilbert for making the Top 10.
Tulsa's rootin' for ya!
And all the 'Dobber's over here in Patootey, too!
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Congrats to Joe Gilbert for making the Top 10.
Tulsa's rootin' for ya!
y1 y1 y1 y1
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Looks like Paul had a heck of a day. And Howard is in there. Go Guys!
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Congrats to Joe Gilbert for making the Top 10.
Tulsa's rootin' for ya!
I'll second that! Joe's got what it takes. One of these days.....
Ted
p.s. His "support staff" is a big plus, as well.
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Pretty! Whose is this???
Ted
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I'm Moon struck!
Ted
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I'm Moon struck!
Ted
Sorry, the pictures didn't come with the quotes.
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Derek isn't there? ???
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Some Pictures
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We are under way here in Houston this morning. The air is still. Frank McMillin blasts off for his first flight.
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Chris Rud is working the Junar on circle 3.
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A nice flight from Frank and his 'Stardust'.
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Team Gilbert out for a practice run.
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In the pit
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Doug and Dave moving toward the circle
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Doug up now- he was just telling me how his wake turbulence nearly got him in practice earlier.
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Texas is well represented: Moon, Oliver, McMillan, and Gilbert is also a member of the Dallas Club!
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The pilots are really doing the Texas Two-Step out there. Here is Kenny's gorgeous ship.
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Richard is flying this very nice Kaz Minato Blue Max.
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The Northwest team.
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Chris contemplates
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Not sneaking much past these guys
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Judges eye view of Richard's inside loops
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Square eight
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Orestes in typical fine form
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The Official Bill.......Timer. (Rutherford)
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David winds er up
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These guys need their track shoes today to back out of the turbs
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David in the outside triangle.....I'll let someone else esplen it.
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Kenny unleashes Junar for Chris
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Junar in the outsides
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Bear Villa
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Colleen shows good form on the release of Joes airplane.
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I'm watching this Patterson fellow.......watching Joe's wing over
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Round one is complete. The judges are taking a siesta. Orestes will lead off round 2.
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Great coverage, Dave!! Excellent pics, too. THANKS for the moment by moment coverage. Alas, must leave in a few and head off to church. Looking forward to the updates when I get back after lunch.
GO JOE!!
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The business end of Franks ship. The lack of air turned into a light drift that is coming 180 degrees from where the judges were positioned. Their encampment had been now moved across the circle. As it is getting pretty warm in the sun now the breeze is welcome- not to mention the flying!
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Orestes is airborne, Kenny and Eric Taylor size it up
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Orestes flies in perfect conditions, the sun at his 2 o'clock facing downwind
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Josias retrieves the Shark. Kenny moves on. They are strictly enforcing the F2B rule whereby the first flier must be completely clear of the circle before the next moves on. Kenny is away.
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Kenny inverted. The wind suddenly changed and he did a couple maneuvers at 90 degrees to the judges. They responded and moved on around
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Kenny leaves-Chris Rud on with Doug Moon the anchorman
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The Northwest team.
Cheering on the homeboys during debulks at the ranch.
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The Junar has been solid all week. Someone asked if this was the airplane that had 3500 flight- heck Chris has about that many on it this week.
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David enroute to the circle
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As a side note... I got a message from Walter Hicks to ask Richard Oliver about something but Walter your mailbox is full..... He asked if Richard could do something here about his finishing technique. He just told me he will do something short and then take questions.....
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The other circles here are actually busy with guys out of the contest who are flying. Sounds good to me... It's already in the 50s and windy at home. Heck if I had another airplane maybe I'd stay here till Christmas.
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Paul to center circle
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A Predator on the loose
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My battery bank is failing. Will grab some ions in the car and be back soon.
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Well we are going it on the phone battery alone so I will slow down on the photos. I've got most everyone anyway save one or two. Didn't miss much since the judges took a break about the time we plugged in. Joe Gilbert just finished his second round flight for those following the board.
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Howard's airplane- the red outa-gas light is on just forward of the leading edge. We've to extremes now. A sporty wind off the Gulf is now coming in. The last round may get interesting
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Doug Moon fires up. ( thanks Mrs. Moon I got your message). He moved the judge a little farther around south. The wind is coming pretty much from that way
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Doug flying a great flight. I like the Bear. If were flying someone else's design right now I think this would be it. It flies like 'my style'... Just me
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Another short break for the judges. I'm going to put more juice on the phone
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Frank Williams is justly proud of his art work on circle 2 in honor of this event
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Will flying continue tomorrow?
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As we are about to start the last round allow me to make this pitch to help support YOUR FAI TEAM. Some small support comes from the AMA, an amount set aside in the 1960s, but most of their expenses come from the pilots own pockets and whatever support Pampa and donations can muster. I'd suggest making whatever donation you can to Pampa earmarked for our team or to the AMA. I don't know about any hat and shirt promotions to raise funds yet but stay tuned for that.
Dave Fitzgerald up on circle 2
Just read a post here- we will have our team selected here within the next two hours
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Howard spools up, Paul releases
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Howard is flying well but again a 90 degree wind change and the judges are watching the maneuvers from the side view.
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Go Doug!
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Richard on the tarmac. David launching
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There might be a good debate topic: do you fly according to the wind or do your best to deal with it and keep your maneuvers directly square out with the judges regardless?
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Richard lands to a nice round of applause. Kenny up.
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Kenny's new ship is flying very well. I think he is flying a little faster- more drive than I recall in the past. Serving him well today.
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Joe moves on for his final appearance before these judges today. It's just HOT out on that circle. RO Jett .67 running.
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There might be a good debate topic: do you fly according to the wind or do your best to deal with it and keep your maneuvers directly square out with the judges regardless?
Our 2X reigning WC even practices flying upwind for such an occurrence...just ask Howard!
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A good flight for Mr. Gilbert. A short break for the judges and we'll finish up. It's very hot in the sun for these guys! Many thanks to them!
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So, will this be wrapped up today? Will we have our FAI team by this evening?
Again, Dave, thanks much for your extended coverage. Next best thing to being there!
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Andre I think we'll have it in an hour. Paul is up and moved the judges to the east side of the circle- we'll see. That does put the sun prettying at his back right now, say left shoulder.
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A great flight and perfect touchdown for Paul. Orestes now with Josias holding
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Orestes pushing the judges back to the south- about 90 from where Paul stationed them
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What is this new gadget Frank Williams has aimed at Orestes airplane? In flight battery charger? Ray gun?
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Orestes spools down. Frank McMillin heads out.
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Chris Rud and Doug Moon left in the pits.
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Frank is circle center trying to decide where he wants the judges....... Now he fires up the PA and will be away shortly. One has to remember there is no hand signal here. The clock starts when the engine fires. Then you must be down and model stopped rolling under 7 minutes.
Frank's pit man called for an attempt. Seems Frank forgot to put his safety thong on. No foul since he didn't release. Frank will move to the bottom and Doug moves on.
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The Riff Raff rolls away.
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Doug had an 18" bottom on the reverse wing over. Sure he wants that one back
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Everyone is hot and tired. Silly time
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Doug pulls it around for touchdown. In F2B one must glide one full lap minimum from engine cutoff to touchdown. Our final flight- Chris and Junar are on the circle.
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Whoops forgot about Frank. He will go again after Chris
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And Frank is cranking now
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He's away in good shape now but in some gusty wind
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From my view Frank is laying it right on the top edge of the height markers. I think this is the first time I've seem used here in the U.S. "Honest" flights here are much higher than at the Nats. It's INTERESTING flying to them this week. Can't get away with anything!
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These were each set using a transom from the circle center. That's a little higher than the edge so where the airplane flys it's actually pretty high off the ground. Frank is done and so are we. I'll be back with your team results soon!!!! Stay tuned!!
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We wait with bated breath!!
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And her you are!! Congrats to our team!!
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Congratulations to all.
Thanks Dave for the effort you put into getting the news out.
Regards,
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Congratulations to our 2015 FAI World Team!
* Paul Walker
* Orestes Hernandez
* David Fitzgerald
Now hoping you three can go beat the world!
Also, very proud that one of our own Tulsa Gluedobbers made it all the way to the final rounds! Way to go Joe Gilbert!
Thanks Dave for your "above and beyond" coverage. Like I said: Almost as good as being there!
Andre
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Thank you Dave. Very kind of you to keep us informed. Congrats to all.
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Should be a great team. Great job, guys.
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It looks like everyone put in a performance to be proud of.
Paul flies volts and David flies slime -- Orestes fies slime?
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All repeaters Good team.
I was pulling for Richard... 5th is very commendable.
Great showing by Texas.. Next time we will have a team member.
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Thanks for all the photos and reports. Tough luck on your part with the plane as I know you have been trying hard. Well maybe a better plane and a decent judge will get you there in the finals and a berth. Just stay with it. Congrats to all that participated and especially to the new team.
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It looks like everyone put in a performance to be proud of.
Paul flies volts and David flies slime -- Orestes fies slime?
Pretty sure Orestes flies with electronic slime. Howard spoke about him using the Chinese CF Quadrotor props early on...'13 or '14. y1 Steve
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Strong team :)
Congratulations.
See you guys in Perth
Pat MacKenzie
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What is this new gadget Frank Williams has aimed at Orestes airplane? In flight battery charger? Ray gun?
No. A USB Mini Cam.
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Wel, certainly no surprises in the places but I can't imagine sending a stronger team!
Congrats to Chris Rud as alternate, and to everyone who flew.
Thanks very much for the 1st class reporting Dave! Certainly all those guys in the top 10 are great competitors.
Randy Cuberly
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Team USA 2016.
Paul Walker wins the Bob Baron Trophy for high score of the meet.
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Orestes Hernandez, Paul Walker, and Dave Fitzgerald
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Team alternate Chris Rud flew Bill Werwage's Junar, and quite well!!
I'm assuming that the last photo is the famous landing gear repair form the world champs many years ago?
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Thanks Dave for the AWESOME coverage!!!
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Thanks for the great report Dave. Even though I was there I just
read the whole thread!
Overall, a great contest. Of course, I would have much rather finished
10th than 11th! Doh!! Frank did a great job of running the show and the
Texas hospitality under the pavilion was unsurpassed. Doug and I
have been telling people for years that Houston has a great flying site,
and now many more people had a chance to see it for themselves.
I hope the TT are there again soon.
To anyone thinking of attending a TT in the future; go for it. For
competitors this contest is a true test. With four flights on the first
day of competition and three more on the second if you qualify it is
a test of both precision and endurance. Seven judged flights in two days
is taxing both physically and mentally. During the drive back to Dallas
Doug and I were talking about how much we enjoyed it and how much
we were ready to do it again!
Thanks to Frank Williams, John Hill, and all the judges, tabulators,
timers and officials at the contest.
Steve
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WOW!!!! Really Great Job. y1 y1 y1
Congrats to all who made team and my hat's off to all that flew in the Team Trials.
For people that are considering going to and/or flying, Go for it!!! #^ You will never see so many great flights and outstanding pilots. You will learn about more P/A than you would ever think possible and meet some of the finest people anywhere,
Later,
Mikey
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The TT was a great contest and it was a ton of fun. It was a hard fought battle every inch of the way. The facilities were top notch. Frank and crew had it all under control from end to end. For example, I would land from one of my official flights. Roll up the lines, clean the plane, get a much needed drink of water, converse with Steve and Mike about my many dreadful mistakes, and walk over to the pavilion and low and behold my score would already be posted. This happened time and time again. I would make some mistakes and my score would be posted!! It was awesome, well not my mistakes. Their team was spot on both days!!
The TT is a hard contest. FAI flying is a bit different, and eye opening for sure. If you blow the high point maneuvers it's very difficult to make it up. In AMA the maneuvers are all worth the same 10-40. If you blow the square eight, just make sure you had good inverted flight and you can make it up there. Or a good landing etc. In FAI the square eight is worth 10 points x a factor of 18. Loops are worth 10 points X a factor of 6. You can see how perfect loops wont make it up even on your best day. The toughest part is doing it over and over and over. I saw lots a very good flying this weekend. Certainly I would have liked to have been up the ladder a little more but I am very glad I attended the event and very thankful to those who put on the contest.
I would say to anyone who has even contemplated the contest to go for it. It will teach you a lot about flying, yours and others.
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These were each set using a transom from the circle center. That's a little higher than the edge so where the airplane flys it's actually pretty high off the ground.
Right. Note that I don't think this is explicitly defined in FAI (yet) but for AMA we changed the 5 feet to reference the center of the pilot's circle, so there would be some clear definition of from the 5 feet is to be referenced. Also, that level referred to a plane perpendicular to local vertical, not a constant altitude AGL. On sites with significant "crown" (like the Muncie L-Pad) this can make a substantial difference. We always check where the judges are and sometimes attempt to make adjustments to the bottom height to make it seem right to them. That used to occasionally lead to some interesting limbo contests, particularly on Circle 3 where a NE wind results in the judges standing in what looks like a hole over in the corner.
People do tend to want to fly lower, because many times this will lead to better scores with inexperienced judges (mostly from shock value), and it's not that easy to stop doing it in other cases. I recall one NW Regionals where we had the bottoms down to about 2 feet between the likely winners as we all were trying to outdo each other, and make it look right for the judges standing well below the pilots circle and the ground on the far side. It also depends somewhat on the likely background "trigger points", where you have to have some reference where to start the corner so it comes out right. The places with tough backgrounds (like Whittier Narrows and Mission College, both with trees about 30+ degrees high on the downwind side, and frequently backlit in the mornings) tend to cause the desired trigger point to be buried in an impenetrable black background and that causes some "interesting" results.
There are some other tricks played that I decline to point out right now. But you can see what they are with close observation.
Brett
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Having judged two team trials in the past I have to comment about the scoring system.
There is absolutely no reason for K factors since everyone flies the same maneuvers from beginning to end. K factors are for something like Olympic diving where the participants elect to perform different dives.
To say that round loops are not hard to do is ludicrous! Yet if a judge varies 1/2 point on a square eight you have lost the contest.
The variation in score doesn't even have to be intentional. It could be an unintentional effect of a halo facoter.
If you use a system where you throw out the high and low score, a judge can see to it that a certain favorite can be helped. By being the low judge you force the judge that is normally low in. The same for the high judge. Believe me this can and has happened.
The FAI scoring basically says that the reverse wing over and round maneuvers have little value, yet big mistakes are common with those maneuvers.
This system has basically been used for the last 40 years, and sadly will not be changed.
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These were each set using a transom from the circle center. That's a little higher than the edge so where the airplane flys it's actually pretty high off the ground. Frank is done and so are we. I'll be back with your team results soon!!!! Stay tuned!!
I felt these things were a little high. I had to constantly fly up to them and missed low often. When I am standing and my arm is out for level flight my plane is usually about 5' off of the ground. This weekend I was having to fly up to keep it in the range. Everyone had it the same so it was equal for all of us.
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Having judged two team trials in the past I have to comment about the scoring system.
There is absolutely no reason for K factors since everyone flies the same maneuvers from beginning to end. K factors are for something like Olympic diving where the participants elect to perform different dives.
To say that round loops are not hard to do is ludicrous! Yet if a judge varies 1/2 point on a square eight you have lost the contest.
The variation in score doesn't even have to be intentional. It could be an unintentional effect of a halo facoter.
If you use a system where you throw out the high and low score, a judge can see to it that a certain favorite can be helped. By being the low judge you force the judge that is normally low in. The same for the high judge. Believe me this can and has happened.
The FAI scoring basically says that the reverse wing over and round maneuvers have little value, yet big mistakes are common with those maneuvers.
This system has basically been used for the last 40 years, and sadly will not be changed.
Hello Tom,
I have heard your arguments on this before and I used to agree but further contemplation and I am not so sure I agree anymore. The K factor is not about my program vs. your program and making the two different programs score evenly like ice skating or diving. In this case it is simply stating some maneuvers are harder than others and if you do the hard ones really well you are going to have a large advantage. And since we all have to do the highly factored maneuvers we all have access to those points. It's still an even contest. Or you could look at it as though they are saying these simple maneuvers should be performed well so the reward is less. If there were no K-factors then it would be AMA without BOM and a 7 minute limit. With K-factors it's a different contest. Is that good? Maybe some think so maybe some don't. But like I said earlier it makes a big difference. Richard for example was able to really excel in two of the highly scored maneuvers as the day wore on and his score steadily improved because of it. On the lower factored maneuvers the penalty for mistakes was way less severe and it didn't hurt his score nearly as much. I was not able to put together a strong showing on those same difficult maneuvers and he sailed right past me. I was not able to catch him on the overall score even if I was able to fly with him or better on the other maneuvers. It certainly shows the flying in a different light. He flew well and took advantage of the situation. Good show RO!!
Just for discussion sake, I cant understand is how the K-factor was applied to the maneuvers.
Scoring range for each maneuver is 1-10, 1 being the lowest and 10 being the highest. .1 increments are the smallest.
Take Off and Level Flight: 10x2
Reverse Wing Over: 10x8
Inside Loops: 10x6
Inverted Flight: 10x2
Outside Loops: 10x6
Inside Square Loops: 10x12
Outside Square Loops: 10x12
Triangular Loops: 10x14
Horizontal Round Eights: 10x7
Horizontal Square Eights: 10x18
Vertical Eights: 10x10
Hourglass: 10x10
Overhead Eights: 10x10
Four-Leaf Clover: 10x8
Landing: 10x5
Personally I can't figure our why the triangle is rated so high?
There are many more maneuvers in the list that are much harder to complete properly. Example, a really good set of overhead eights is not nearly as common as a good set of triangles, or a good four-leaf clover.
Also, it would only make sense to me that the K-factors would be setup from hardest to easiest and none matched.
It would be interesting to see the thought process behind assignment of the K-factors.
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Doug,
It looks like they value the maneuvers with corners higher and the tighter the corner (i.e. the triangles) the higher they are valued. I the thinking is these are the areas that present the conditions that can cause the ship to wobble or overshoot or stall, so therefore harder to complete cleanly. The next harder maneuvers are the ones that stack one shape on top of another, again conditions that must be flown tighter and that makes it harder to fly clean (not necessarily just shape and intersections). That's what is looks like to me as to why the K factors are weighted the way they are.
Best, DennisT
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(CliP)
It would be interesting to see the thought process behind assignment of the K-factors.
I cannot shed any light on the "thought process behind assignment of the K-factors", but I can provide some background history on this.
At one time the FAI had an entirely different pattern than is flown now. That was in the years prior to 1960. At that time K factors were used for that previous pattern.
I am not sure, but I think that it was in 1960 that the FAI adopted our AMA pattern. (Both patterns essentially have remained unchanged since that time, though the maneuver descriptions have been, shall we say "refined" for both our AMA pattern as well as the FAI pattern. The maneuvers and their sequence have not been changed. Also, I think it was in 1960 that a World Championship competition was held for CL in a format that is similar to what is used today (Speed, Aerobatics, and Team Race), though the format has evolved and Combat was added sometime later. When the FAI first adopted our AMA pattern, a K-Factor system was applied which I think can be assumed its use was a hold over from the previous FAI scoring system for Aerobatics. The scoring system for that FAI pattern had several different aspects. Each portion of each maneuver was scored separately. In other words, there were three separate scores for each of the 3 consecutive inside loops. In the case of the eights, each of the two eights (horizontal, square, vertical and overheads had two separate scores. Then to top off that, each of those separately scored segments had its own K-Factor. It was sometime later that the entirety of each maneuver was scored using a single K-Factor. That was about the same time that the hand signal for the FAI pattern had to be given before each maneuver was eliminated.
(Also, in that period, the FAI scoring system was 0 to 10, but in whole point increments. Sometime later, the FAI scoring system allowed for 1/2 point increments. Now, 0.1 point increments are used. In my opinion, each change was for the better as it made it much easier for a judge to distinguish slight differences when scoring similarly skilled pilots.)
This is not an argument for or against K-Factors. Just some background on the history of the pattern used for FAI.
Now, for one of my opinions about the FAI K-Factors: I personally do not think they are needed or make any difference. I feel the better pattern will be scored higher regardless if K-Factors are used. It would be interesting to hold a contest (or even a test, say with 10 pilots) with two sets of judges, one using the FAI K-Factors, the other not using the K-Factors. I would wager that the same ranking would be established. Oh, there might be a slightly different ranking, but the better pilots would still be ranked higher than those who did fly as good of a pattern. The same slight ranking variation might (but not necessarily) occur if the high and low scores are not used in the tabulation of each pilot's score, compared to when all scores are used in the average flight scores posted, but that is another subject.
I do not mean to hi-jack this thread. CONGRATULATIONS TO PAUL, DAVID AND ORESTES.
Keith
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Horizontal Square Eights are 10x18 (not 10x14)
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Horizontal Square Eights are 10x18 (not 10x14)
I fixed my post. Thanks for catching my error.
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Hello KT,
Thank you for the background. If they are a hold over then that would explain a lot.
I do beg to differ on your assumption that final ranking would be the same. Maybe not the top few spots but there would be a difference for sure. I saw some maneuvers that would have been very costly in AMA scoring. That could change a few spots here and there.
But it's really nothing to argue about. The two contests are not the same the scoring is so vastly different one could not expect the outcomes to be the same. Pilots know where to bear down in fai and where it doesn't matter as much. A missed landing in fai is not too much to worry about really when you have a killer sqr 8. But a weak or missed sqr 8 cannot be overcome with a good landing no matter how perfectly it is executed. In AMA a good landing CAN overcome a not so good 8 or hourglass or triangle.
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Thanks for all the photos and reports. Tough luck on your part with the plane as I know you have been trying hard. Well maybe a better plane and a decent judge will get you there in the finals and a berth. Just stay with it. Congrats to all that participated and especially to the new team.
I am surprised at your assertion that there weren't any "decent" judges there. Those guys worked their tails off to do their best. I didn't hear any complaints from the pilots.
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I am surprised at your assertion that there weren't any "decent" judges there. Those guys worked their tails off to do their best. I didn't hear any complaints from the pilots.
Here's an echo of that opinion from a guy who didn't win. I wasn't surprised, though. I was angered.
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Congrats to those who placed, won, and those who participated and put in the effort ,,
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I looked it over many times and talked at length with my brother about the contest on our trip home yesterday, as we listened to the Cowboys get slaughtered once again, and we both came to the conclusion that they got it right 100% across the board.
I talked with the pit boss for a while on Sunday. And we came to the conclusion there is no way on earth either of us would want to judge that contest. The flying was very close and that makes it so tough. But once again a quick review of the final placings and it was on the money.
Congrats to Paul David and Orestes, and Chris 1st alternate. Richard wasn't too far out from Chris. I really wanted to catch Howard but he got me by just over 3 points. Joe and wife Colleen put on a good showing. Not only was Joe excited about this contest but he bought himself a new Chipmonk, a real one!!!!! Frank had a great two days of flying and found himself in 9th place. His plane, Stardust, is really cool!! Kenney Stevens flew a very quick and crisp pattern. Wes Eakin and Chris Stevens and myself were watching Kenneys last flight and he made a minor mistake somewhere along the way and Wes said "Kick him in shin for that one!" It was SO funny!! There was much laughter this weekend thats for darn sure!! After a good nights sleep I think am ready to try again!!!
It's great to spend time with these guys and get to know them more and more. Orestes and Josias have so many stories, it's great!!!
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Congrats to the team from us in Darkest Africa. This is a strong team and I believe that they will be strong contenders in OZ next year. I look forward to seeing you guys again as well. I bought our air tickets for me and Bokkie last week so we will be there I'm happy to report.
Just reading what Doug and Steve Moon wrote just shows that there was a wonderful spirit amongst everyone and that is what makes it special, even if you don't come out on top. Well done to all and thanks as always to Dave Trible for the on-site reports. It was so nice to read the progress all the time. This is much appreciated!
Keith R
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I am surprised at your assertion that there weren't any "decent" judges there. Those guys worked their tails off to do their best. I didn't hear any complaints from the pilots.
Just an educated guess on my part but knowing Doc Holiday very well I think he might have meant to say "coach" instead of "judge".
He is typically NOT a critical person and it would be very out of character for him to deliberately criticize the judges.
Like I said an educated guess, knowing He's a good guy but OLD like me!!! Sometimes the wrong things just come out by accident!
Randy Cuberly
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Just to add, that's just Doc. I've known him my whole life and he was not being critical- he wasn't even there to evaluate the judging ( which was top knotch). He just sort of stumbled on his tongue. His heart is in the right place but has been misunderstood at times.
Hope everyone made it home in good shape. I have another day off so .... Think I'll go flying...
Dave
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I am surprised at your assertion that there weren't any "decent" judges there. Those guys worked their tails off to do their best. I didn't hear any complaints from the pilots.
I should learn to be a little clearer on my posts. What I was referring to is when Dave gets home that we can help him. I did mean to say coach. Old brain fart setting in. I really did not mean the judges at the team trials or any contest. I have judged a little in the past and do not consider myself a good judge.
Now again how do we thank those that stand out in the hot sun doing the judging, also those doing the calculating of the scores and most of all the contest director and his aides. Forgot the runners with the score sheets. Who did I leave out? Just seen it, pit boss.
By the way Randy I'm one of the strange Holliday's, its spelled with two 'L's.
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I should learn to be a little clearer on my posts. What I was referring to is when Dave gets home that we can help him. I did mean to say coach. Old brain fart setting in. I really did not mean the judges at the team trials or any contest. I have judged a little in the past and do not consider myself a good judge.
Now again how do we thank those that stand out in the hot sun doing the judging, also those doing the calculating of the scores and most of all the contest director and his aides. Forgot the runners with the score sheets. Who did I leave out? Just seen it, pit boss.
By the way Randy I'm one of the strange Holliday's, its spelled with two 'L's.
Nothing "strange" about you Doc...even with two L's. See how well I know you!!!! LL~ LL~ LL~
I knew you wouldn't say bad things about the judges!
See you at VSC I hope!
Randy Cuberly
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Regarding K factors versus AMA scoring ...... would we pick at different team if we were to take the first three places at the NATS and call them the team? ...... selection using the AMA system .... and send them off to fly under the FAI system. Would the team not be just as good as what we do now?
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The results probably would be the same and we have an excellent team.
I brought it up because I still feel that since the degree of difficulty is the same for everyone from start to finish, the K factors are not necessary.
This is a system where a slight variation by a judge can change the outcome.
As Keith says it is almost certain that it was a hold over from the early FAI pattern.
I know that I a stirring a pot that will not be changed, but I still question it.
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Wow! You guys did a splendid job keeping us informed and allowing a little vicarious experience of a super event for the rest of us. 'looks like a VERY strong team.
I don't know Chris Rudd yet, but I have to really appreciate his ability and tenacity in placing 4th in that field under his circumstances. It has only three weeks ago that he was at our field during the Cleveland contest receiving that historic "Junar" from Bill Werwage, who was setting it up after a l-o-n-g time unused. Several flights were made before and after the contest to solve engine riddles and dial it in. As far as I know, only Bill flew this plane that day, and Chris had yet to fly it. So in a plane from another time, with many hours of Werwage-type practice on it, Chris Rudd places 4th among America's best. After a summer during which he had lost two superbly built stunters to freaky control system failures, perhaps he can take some satisfaction in this.
I hope I'm not diverting this thread too much, but here are some pictures of where Chris Rudd was, less than three weeks before the trials. Jim and Todd Lee, Chris Rudd, and Bill Werwage are in the photos.
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I don't know Chris Rudd yet, but I have to really appreciate his ability and tenacity in placing 4th in that field under his circumstances.
(Clip)
I feel your comments about Chris Rudd are completely justified in this thread.
For the record, Chris was the Junior member of our F2B Aerobatics on our United States team to the 2006 Control Line World Championships in Valladolid, Spain. Chris placed second in the Junior competition, and placed 36th overall of the 84 competitors there.
(Our team, placing 3rd of 30 countries, was Paul Walker, David Fitzgerald and Bob Hunt. Bill Werwage competed as the defending World Champion. Robb Gruber competed as defending Jr. World Champion.)
Keith
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I was totally impressed with Chris. His drive and want to excel is very apparent. I mentioned to him on Sunday that all he needs is another 3000 flights and he will perform with the best.
I look forward to seeing him at the next Team Trials with the drive, practice, and equipment to make the team. We need more like him to keep the US excellence in international competition going strong.
We need more "younger" pilot to stand up and show the want to excel, and the ability to take the place of the "older" pilots.
Matt C, Derek B, Doug M and others, how about it?
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I've seen Chris fly a few times. I think you could give him an ARF Flite Streak with an LA.25 and he'd still be right in the hunt. y1
Great coverage here Dave, thanks for all the work!
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Matt C, Derek B, Doug M and others, how about it?
Maybe next time Paul. I had school this time around :'(
Congrats to the team members!! Wish I could've joined you three back in 2012 in Bulgaria!
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I don't care what scoring system they use. I just want to finish the darn house reno, so I can mix it up with these cats. HB~> HB~>
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Thanks everyone! It was an honor to fly Billy's plane. ;D I wanted to thank Frank for putting on a great contest and I wish the team all the best on their adventure. Thanks to Bill Rutherford for letting me stay at his place!
Here is a photo that I took this afternoon after I unpacked the car. Its all the spent fuel for the 746 flights I flew this season. I grew a lot this season and I'm eager to get building and prepare for next season.
Blessings,
Chris
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Cris , what engine is in the Junar? OPS ?
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Cris , what engine is in the Junar? OPS ?
It has a PA 61 we stuck in it.
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Chris, that has to instill some confidence in your abilities when an icon of stunt will let you use one of his babies. Billy has been one of my heroes of stunt since I first read about his first NATS win as a much younger kid.
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I was totally impressed with Chris. His drive and want to excel is very apparent. I mentioned to him on Sunday that all he needs is another 3000 flights and he will perform with the best.
I look forward to seeing him at the next Team Trials with the drive, practice, and equipment to make the team. We need more like him to keep the US excellence in international competition going strong.
We need more "younger" pilot to stand up and show the want to excel, and the ability to take the place of the "older" pilots.
Matt C, Derek B, Doug M and others, how about it?
I am so flattered to be lumped in with the "younger" pilots. You must have not noticed the gray in my beard and the extreme lack of hair on the top of my head! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I tried this past weekend but it was not to be...
I need about 3000 more flights too, and another 3000 after that.
I did see some things this weekend that have me very intrigued to say the least.
1. The high powered electric systems, 6s and 5s, are putting out the ponies!! Consistency is their game for sure. The trim setup is a different as well... But the path to that proper trim setup is the same.
2. A plane built in 1984 with older design theory was right in the hunt. Thin wing, relatively sharp leading edge, wide chord, relatively shorter span, light weight, and it was a damn good flying plane! Quick in the corner yet very stable. Interesting....very interesting
Am I approaching stunt incorrectly now...??
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I am so flattered to be lumped in with the "younger" pilots. You must have not noticed the gray in my beard and the extreme lack of hair on the top of my head! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I tried this past weekend but it was not to be...
I need about 3000 more flights too, and another 3000 after that.
I did see some things this weekend that have me very intrigued to say the least.
1. The high powered electric systems, 6s and 5s, are putting out the ponies!! Consistency is their game for sure. The trim setup is a different as well... But the path to that proper trim setup is the same.
2. A plane built in 1984 with older design theory was right in the hunt. Thin wing, relatively sharp leading edge, wide chord, relatively shorter span, light weight, and it was a damn good flying plane! Quick in the corner yet very stable. Interesting....very interesting
Am I approaching stunt incorrectly now...??
Take a look at Billy's GeoXL. It's a slightly larger later version of the Junar theme. Mine (that was left at the field and disappeared) was by far the best flying stunter I've had. I never understood why Bill didn't expand on that theme, or maybe he did but just hid it. The Thunderbolt is actually very similar (I think the same basic wing and numbers). If I had any sense I would build another and another and another one of them but I've never been accused of having any sense.
Randy Cuberly
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There might be a good debate topic: do you fly according to the wind or do your best to deal with it and keep your maneuvers directly square out with the judges regardless?
In the final round, I watched David and Howard both get the 90 degree wind shift. They then moved their maneuvers 90 degrees to be in the wind correctly. The maneuvers were 90 degrees to the judges. I checked their scores and they basically didn't improve that round.
Then when it was my turn, the wind shifted at least 90 degrees once the wingover was completed, I chose to leave the maneuvers straight across from the judges, and fight it through all the maneuvers. It worked out as it turned out to be the high score of the competition.
This might answer the question, maybe.
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Paul, first I didn't get to congratulate you on your win... So congrats!!
Your take on this would be my sense of what to do, hard as it can be. In lighter winds it's not too bad but on a real windy day pretty tough. However stronger winds tend not to change direction suddenly like these were. From the judges perspective what do you do? You've only seen the elevations of the maneuver and nothing else. Do I give it a great score? A lousy score? An average based on the other maneuvers you DID see. Guess? In 5 seconds I'd bet on a guess and likely lower that what the manuever was actually worth. Then there is the 'what the?' factor that would detract for more than one maneuver. In this there I looked over at the judges when the wind suddenly caused the 90 degree maneuver shift and they sort of looked at each other wondering what to do. Good judging is very hard and these guys are to be thanked for doing the job. Not much time to decide how to react when the unusual happens. It seems most wise for the pilot to NOT do anything unexpected if possible.
Dave
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How can you score a maneuver if you can't see the shape? Maybe they might have gotten a better score on that particular maneuver if done across from the judges. Only by knowing the pattern would know what next maneuver should be flown.
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Waiting for the judges to move a few times in shifting air could possibly put you short on fuel or electrons since you set up for the 7 min. time limit.
I think that I read a while ago that the European judges will not move..Paul can you help here... is that true????
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In FAI, the judges are allowed to move only a small amount. At the Team Trials they were positioned prior to the signal, and didn't move after that. Well, at least that's what I saw in the 3rd round of the finals. They were "tired" by then......as were the pilots!
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I think that I read a while ago that the European judges will not move.
From the F2B rules:
"Each competitor shall be allowed 3 minutes preparation time to enter the circle, ...to position the judges and to prepare his motor(s) for starting."
In another section on Judging:
"Once an official flight has begun the judges may, or their own accord, change their original position, but such position change shall not exceed a maximum of 1/8 of a lap ahead of or behind their original position at the beginning of the respective official flight. Judges shall only change position during the 1 1/2 intervening laps flown between manoeuvres and not while any manouevre is being flown."
In the several world championships I have observed and judged, this rule is firmly followed. In fact, once the pilot has moved the judges to where he wants them, I have seldom ever seen the judges move after the beginning of the flight. Sometime, one or two of them might shift slightly (within that +/- 1/8 lap) but not often.
Keith
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The judges were moving on some of the flights when it was needed. But they did stick to the 1/8 of the circle rule.
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Congrats to dream team :- )))
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In the several world championships I have observed and judged, this rule is firmly followed. In fact, once the pilot has moved the judges to where he wants them, I have seldom ever seen the judges move after the beginning of the flight. Sometime, one or two of them might shift slightly (within that +/- 1/8 lap) but not often.
Well, most of ECh and many WCh are on places surrounded by trees or buildings and wind changes also during flight, so I do not think judges can run down and back so much. For exmaple last ECH I was so lucky that just before start wind turned opposite. I cannot imagine judges to run on opposite side of the circle and then back just for 2 or 3 figures :- )))
But we have 6 judges, they usually take almost that 1/8 arc, so if pilot moves his figures little bit, it is enough if only one judge changes his position from left most side to righ most and judges moved :- )))
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Regrading K factor. That question comes again and again. Yes we fly every flight the same and we do not choose figures, that is true. But K factor is not here to compensate difficulty of figure. As Keith already wrote it has historical reason, in past we had judged separate figures and since judges was not able to write so many points, figures were summed together including K factors. Simply if judge observed more, the K factor was also higher. The judge are not "counting" mistakes but simply say how much figures match definition. That is reason why we have aproximately the same mark for level flight and also for square eight, does not matter that in level flight I can do only one error while in square eight I certainly do many more. I think that US judges do it different, I saw it on my NATs score sheets, I got twice 40 points for reversed fligh, never happened with FAI judges.
However that all is only theory. The real reason why we wanted to keep K factors on last "rules cleaning" fas fact, that K factor EXPANDS differences on top places. The biggest problem of FAI system on small amount of circles When we must fly up to 100 flyers at once is, that in such larrge group we have differences often only fraction of point. We did analyze of several large contests and we found that K factor makes differences proportionally larger (in % not in absolute number). Simply said, good pilot will do complex figure much better then worse pilot compared to the difference on siple figure. So that is why K :- )))
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Congrats to dream team :- )))
Thanks Igor. This is the third time this group is together. The first two times both netted team gold medals!! :-))))
Long drive to TeamTrials. Still not home. This trip will be about 7000 miles total! Includes trip to LA to get stuck in the closed I-5 due to mudslides. Long trip.
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CONGRATS to the team!
I did not see it (or missed it) did we select a Junior Team Member?
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I did not see it (or missed it) did we select a Junior Team Member?
American kids have more important things to do than to fly stunt.
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Howard,
That and just not wanting to commit seems to be keeping them away. I would have thought it would be cool to go to Oz to fly but all of the building and practice must outweigh the thousands of dollars needed to make the trip.
John
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CONGRATS to the team!
I did not see it (or missed it) did we select a Junior Team Member?
Denny alas we had no Jr. entries. I say we draft Sammy for the next cycle-before she ages out!
Dave
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Howard,
That and just not wanting to commit seems to be keeping them away. I would have thought it would be cool to go to Oz to fly but all of the building and practice must outweigh the thousands of dollars needed to make the trip.
John
Also - the TT was during school.
Brett
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Also - the TT was during school.
As will be the world champs. Good point.
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Also - the TT was during school.
That is something that needs to be considered for both the trials and W/Cs. Obviously, it is a bit less of an issue with the trials since there is an option to travel in Thursday after school, practice Friday, contest on the weekend and home Sunday night. For a W/Cs, it is at least a week - this one will be more. Speaking from experience (it's been a long time, but I remember it clearly), that is a killer. It hurts the school effort and the flying.
Tom
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Tom,
Thanks for all of your help on the TT weekend!!
As far as the jr goes there is only a handful of jr CLPA fliers out there that can fly the full competitive pattern.
From there how many of them have families that are willing and have the ability to build a take apart model for overseas travel?
Or have the means to by one?
Have the time to take off for the trip?
Have the funds to cover the trip?
And of course school is an issue. You can no longer take off school for 2 weeks at a time and just "make it up." It just isn't that simple with all the attendance rules etc.
Once you really break it down we just don't have a very large pool of young fliers to choose from. Is that bad? I don't know, I see lots CL activity these days on the contests results and many of the names I have never heard of. Not that I am anything special I just mean there is activity and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sustained growth. Do the other countries have large pools of youth fliers? Not sure. But they certainly have access to models that more easily travel. That is one massive hurdle covered right there.
The cost and time of the WCs makes this a borderline rich mans game. Flying control line is not a kids game anymore and hasn't been for a very long time and never will be again. That's just the way it is. Sure we have kids here and there and air venture and the joe nall expose tons and tons of kids to cl every year. How many continue?
I think too many see no jr from us at the WCs and think we are somehow dying off etc.. I don't think so. The factors that go into competing have changed over the years and they are not conducive to including jr competitors.
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Tom,
Thanks for all of your help on the TT weekend!!
As far as the jr goes there is only a handful of jr CLPA fliers out there that can fly the full competitive pattern.
From there how many of them have families that are willing and have the ability to build a take apart model for overseas travel?
Or have the means to by one?
Have the time to take off for the trip?
Have the funds to cover the trip?
And of course school is an issue. You can no longer take off school for 2 weeks at a time and just "make it up." It just isn't that simple with all the attendance rules etc.
Once you really break it down we just don't have a very large pool of young fliers to choose from. Is that bad? I don't know, I see lots CL activity these days on the contests results and many of the names I have never heard of. Not that I am anything special I just mean there is activity and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sustained growth. Do the other countries have large pools of youth fliers? Not sure. But they certainly have access to models that more easily travel. That is one massive hurdle covered right there.
The cost and time of the WCs makes this a borderline rich mans game. Flying control line is not a kids game anymore and hasn't been for a very long time and never will be again. That's just the way it is. Sure we have kids here and there and air venture and the joe nall expose tons and tons of kids to cl every year. How many continue?
I think too many see no jr from us at the WCs and think we are somehow dying off etc.. I don't think so. The factors that go into competing have changed over the years and they are not conducive to including jr competitors.
Doug,
I believe you're absolutely right about everything you wrote!
I also believe that the issue could be helped if WE made more of an effort to bid on WC's here in the US. The last one here was quite a while ago, and we certainly have the resources to do more. As it is the Europeans pretty much dominate that scene! (Including the Australians with the Europeans even though it is a bit of a trip for most Europeans it certainly is not as much as for Americans.
Maybe thoughts about a Western Worlds champs should be considered. I realize that our Nationals does host other countries fliers but it's not exactly the same thing and I belive there may be some stigma attached to a foreign flier winning "our" Nationals!
It could be an American Internationals (American being North America, to include Canada, and South America to include Mexico and Central America as well as Cuba ( Who knows the way the current political situation is running they may be a State in the not too distant future! LL~)
Randy Cuberly
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Randy you may want to look at your globe, it is not significantly further to travel to Perth from the western US where you are, than it is from northern, central or eastern Europe. LA to Sydney is a 12 hour flight, Sydney to Perth around 4.5 hours. Perth to Singapore is around 6.5 hours, Singapore to Berlin or Paris ect is 11 hours. It is also likely to be cheaper for Americans to fly here than Europeans. I think you have grossly underestimated the time and cost Australian WC team members have to commit by lumping us in with the 'Europeans'. Most of them drive their cars to the WCs, so take apart models are not mandatory and transport of batteries and fuel is straightforward. Not so for those of us from the 'antipodies' as I want to be inclusive of NZers who have to go further than anyone else. ;D
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As will be the world champs. Good point.
That was part of the discussion several of us had with Steve and Samantha during appearance judging this year - these were both significant issues.
Brett
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Randy you may want to look at your globe, it is not significantly further to travel to Perth from the western US where you are, than it is from northern, central or eastern Europe. LA to Sydney is a 12 hour flight, Sydney to Perth around 4.5 hours. Perth to Singapore is around 6.5 hours, Singapore to Berlin or Paris ect is 11 hours. It is also likely to be cheaper for Americans to fly here than Europeans. I think you have grossly underestimated the time and cost Australian WC team members have to commit by lumping us in with the 'Europeans'. Most of them drive their cars to the WCs, so take apart models are not mandatory and transport of batteries and fuel is straightforward. Not so for those of us from the 'antipodies' as I want to be inclusive of NZers who have to go further than anyone else. ;D
Peter I agree you have a point. I probably should not lump Australia with Europe. For one thing it's a very large continent under basically one umbrella like the US.
My real point is that there are many different countries in a relatively small area in Europe, and they bid for the WC and it's less travel for them to go from one country to another than it is typically for us here in the US to go from California or Arizona to Indiana where Our Nationals are held. In fact it's about 2500 miles for me from Southern Arizona.
My point is that The US is a large country with a large population (about 330 Million I think) and we should bid more for the WC than we do.
In fact I suppose the same applies to Australia for the same reasons.
Thanks for keeping me honest. It wasn't my intention to pick on anyone and certainly not Australia. I would love to visit there someday but alas my wife's health doesn't allow me much time away from home.
Randy Cuberly
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Randy, talk to Bill Lee and then decide if you would like to take it on. No telling how much was out of Bill's pocket to run the thing in 2004.
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Thanks Igor. This is the third time this group is together. The first two times both netted team gold medals!! :-))))
I wish you will, and I wish myself one day to make Slovak TT ... so far it looks we can hardly find 3 good pilots here between 5mil. Slovak citizens ... so far we have only 2 good and one sometimes helping just to have 3 pilots for team results :- ))
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Randy, talk to Bill Lee and then decide if you would like to take it on. No telling how much was out of Bill's pocket to run the thing in 2004.
You don't want to know! In fact I don't want to know! (Only Sandra knows and she won't tell me!)
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I wish you will, and I wish myself one day to make Slovak TT ... so far it looks we can hardly find 3 good pilots here between 5mil. Slovak citizens ... so far we have only 2 good and one sometimes helping just to have 3 pilots for team results :- ))
You had a country big enough to have a strong team, but you split so you could have two teams.
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Noone asked F2B flyers :- )))