Author Topic: 2013. IC vs Electric. One appearance point. (Read 5024 times)

Dennis Moritz · « **on:** August 18, 2013, 03:27:23 AM »

2013. IC vs Electric. One appearance point.

PJ Rowland · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2013, 05:28:43 AM »

Is this the most pointless thread ever on Stunthanger ?

Derek Barry · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2013, 05:42:17 AM »

If Dennis is looking for a debate, we have a section for that...

Derek

Mike Ferguson · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2013, 07:57:37 AM »

Previous Nats have been won and lost by a single appearance point before, regardless of engine choice. It happens. Just part of the rules.

For that matter, those same Nats were also conceivably won or lost by a single takeoff point, or a single wingover point, or a single square eight point, or ...

billbyles · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2013, 08:58:00 AM »

Quote from: PJ Rowland on August 18, 2013, 05:28:43 AM

Is this the most pointless thread ever on Stunthanger ?

Without a doubt.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2013, 11:19:37 AM »

I think this is a fascinating moment in the evolution of our hobby-spot, fascinating from many angles. The hobby-sport is that tightly contested. The effect of BOM on the final outcome. Two different power packages vying for the win and the 18 to 19 point difference in appearance points is the diff. So many of our ongoing debates converging. On the contrary I am not feeling contentious about the outcome, not in the least. Instead I am thinking about how the outcome of this NATs is a healthy paradigm or meme (perhaps someone can think of a less esoteric term.) Stunt 2013 is alive and well, hotly contested and evolving. Somehow Geroge's ole pattern has been reborn. Again.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #6 on:** August 18, 2013, 11:44:07 AM »

I think it shows you cant give away anything right now. I have heard in the past make the finish "decent" and make it up on the circle. I dont think you can do that right now. It gonna takes hours in the shop getting the finish right and correct along with 100s upon 100s of patterns over the years to get to the top. I feel very fortunate over the past several years to have been selected to fly for the win. I will keep finishing and flying to try to win it again.

Somehow I have to figure out how to get more than 18 points...sheesh...I never thought I would get 18 and when I did this time it wasnt enough....thanks alot PW!

Paul Walker · « **Reply #7 on:** August 18, 2013, 11:58:13 AM »

You're welcome Doug!

Howard Rush · « **Reply #8 on:** August 18, 2013, 12:39:42 PM »

Quote from: Doug Moon on August 18, 2013, 11:44:07 AM

I have heard in the past make the finish "decent" and make it up on the circle.

I have heard that a lot. Guess from whom.

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #9 on:** August 18, 2013, 01:03:16 PM »

I am not an active stunt flier but I have a question.

2013. IC vs Electric. One appearance point.

In who's favor was the one point, IC or Electric?
Clancy

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2013, 01:30:10 PM »

Since flight points are so subjective, I have always maintained that struggling for an extra appearance point is futile.

Sure, contests have been won by 1 or 2 overall points, but that is so close that any of the top dogs could have won. It's somewhat just luck.

F.C.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #11 on:** August 18, 2013, 01:52:49 PM »

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on August 18, 2013, 01:03:16 PM

In who's favor was the one point, IC or Electric?

Electric. It wasn't all greasy and yucky.

The top two had paint schemes designed by art majors, by the way.

Sean McEntee · « **Reply #12 on:** August 18, 2013, 03:48:51 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on August 18, 2013, 01:52:49 PM

Electric. It wasn't all greasy and yucky.

Kaz's Hellcat made the 20-point list as I recall, and it is not electric. Lots of paper towels?

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #13 on:** August 18, 2013, 03:57:07 PM »

To show that I practice what I preach: my electric stunter which would get possible 5 appearance points! If the judges are having a good day, my score will more than make up for lack of A.P. Why worry?

Floyd

Brett Buck · « **Reply #14 on:** August 18, 2013, 04:16:23 PM »

Quote from: FLOYD CARTER on August 18, 2013, 03:57:07 PM

To show that I practice what I preach: my electric stunter which would get possible 5 appearance points! If the judges are having a good day, my score will more than make up for lack of A.P. Why worry?

You aren't going to give up 2-4 points on Top 20 or Top 5 day and "make it up by flying" against Paul/David/Doug/Derek, or at least it will be prohibitively difficult. In Advanced or Expert at a local contest, then, sure, most of the time you can give up appearance entirely and still have a chance. That's why the BOM debate is as it is, it's about the NATs, and nothing else.

My analysis from the time I have been doing it is that appearance and flying are about 50/50 in the results, depending on the points range. In the late 90's the tendency to select judges for absolute score biased it towards appearance a bit, and with the automatic method increased the score range and biased away from appearance a bit, but over time the value has tended to be about equal.

It actually makes a pretty big difference on Top 20 day, too. I missed on appearance points in both 2001 and 2002, but there were plenty of flying errors, too. My solution - build an 18 point airplane instead of a 14 point airplane. That's part of the event, it should be part of the event.

Brett

bill bischoff · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2013, 06:43:08 PM »

Doug, you just need to apply those panel lines I gave you.....

BB

Doug Moon · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2013, 07:56:34 PM »

Quote from: bill bischoff on August 18, 2013, 06:43:08 PM

Doug, you just need to apply those panel lines I gave you.....

BB

I still have them...

Doug Moon · « **Reply #17 on:** August 18, 2013, 08:03:21 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on August 18, 2013, 01:52:49 PM

Electric. It wasn't all greasy and yucky.

The top two had paint schemes designed by art majors, by the way.

That's right! Art rules!!

Howard Rush · « **Reply #18 on:** August 19, 2013, 12:34:10 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on August 18, 2013, 04:16:23 PM

In Advanced or Expert at a local contest, then, sure, most of the time you can give up appearance entirely and still have a chance. That's why the BOM debate is as it is, it's about the NATs, and nothing else.

In our local contests there's typically a 20-point gap between first and second. The NW Regionals and Golden State, where the whole West Coast Varsity turns out, are closer.

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #19 on:** August 19, 2013, 03:06:11 PM »

And at many "local" contests, the judging is even more random because few judges at the local level are properly trained or experienced.

Floyd said that!

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #20 on:** August 19, 2013, 06:44:41 PM »

A difference of one appearance point (or 5 vortex generators.)

Howard Rush · « **Reply #21 on:** August 20, 2013, 01:34:45 AM »

Appearance points or flying points, vortex generators help either way.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #22 on:** August 20, 2013, 08:20:58 AM »

The beauty of the bugs is in the eye of the beholder. A Papa's pride. Do insects have fathers?

Howard Rush · « **Reply #23 on:** August 20, 2013, 11:59:28 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on August 20, 2013, 08:20:58 AM

Do insects have fathers?

I see the idea for a new play germinating. A guy wakes up as a vortex generator.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #24 on:** August 20, 2013, 12:39:34 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on August 20, 2013, 11:59:28 AM

I see the idea for a new play germinating. A guy wakes up as a vortex generator.

Then literary critics can spend the next 100 years arguing if he was supposed to be a cockroach or a beetle, er, generated vortices or acted as a turbulator.

Brett

Howard Rush · « **Reply #25 on:** August 20, 2013, 01:18:27 PM »

Would that literary critics cease impersonating aerodynamicists.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #26 on:** August 20, 2013, 01:21:31 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on August 20, 2013, 01:18:27 PM

Would that literary critics cease impersonating aerodynamicists.

Even better if people stopped equating aerodynamicists with wizards possessed of mystical knowledge.

Brett

RandySmith · « **Reply #27 on:** August 20, 2013, 01:29:18 PM »

"Quote from: Howard Rush on August 20, 2013, 03:18:27 PM
Would that literary critics cease impersonating aerodynamicists.

Even better if people stopped equating aerodynamicists with wizards possessed of mystical knowledge.

Brett "

No such thing anyway... it is all magic !!!

Randy

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #28 on:** August 20, 2013, 01:44:22 PM »

Quote from: Mike Ferguson on August 18, 2013, 07:57:37 AM

Previous Nats have been won and lost by a single appearance point before, regardless of engine choice. It happens. Just part of the rules.

For that matter, those same Nats were also conceivably won or lost by a single takeoff point, or a single wingover point, or a single square eight point, or ...

Mike,

Exactly!

Ted

Bill Little · « **Reply #29 on:** August 20, 2013, 01:57:32 PM »

I am certain that each one of the Top 5 can look back and see where they left points in the bag. That all did the best they could at the time, I am positive. AP is simply another aspect of the event. Nothing new under the sun.

Congrats, again, to Paul.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

dale gleason · « **Reply #30 on:** August 20, 2013, 02:29:00 PM »

Not just the Top Five, The Top Twenty qualifiers, everyone, can see where points were lost.

About three orange airplanes ago, I saw the tired and beleaguered Orange Airplane Guy slump into a motel lobby couch and speak out loudly, to no one in particular, "These guys are good!!" This after finishing 13th. No whining or griping about anything. I immediately decided to be like him when I grew up.

Three Impcats later, my belated rejoinder is........."These guys ARE good!"

dg

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #31 on:** August 20, 2013, 03:01:29 PM »

Caught! I often read Kafka before typing missives on Stunthanger. Is there a better way to prepare?

Joseph Lijoi · « **Reply #32 on:** August 20, 2013, 04:33:05 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on August 20, 2013, 03:01:29 PM

Caught! I often read Kafka before typing missives on Stunthanger. Is there a better way to prepare?

There is no better way to prepare. Read the statement and fill in the blank:

"___________...the greatest flyer who never got enough appearance points".

Kafkaesque, eh?

Congratulations to everyone! There is a lot of work involved for both the competeitors and the guys who run the show.