Why are hobby shops going out of business?

[Bill Sawyer]

Today I needed a piece of 1/32 plywood, one foot by two feet. I called a balsa supplier and asked for the plywood but the supplier was out. They normally sell it at $8.59 for a one foot X 4 foot piece. Not having a local hobby shop I went to the next town. On the way I stopped at a craft store - Michaels. They had what I wanted at $8.99 per one foot X 2 foot sheet. That sounded a little high ( about double ) so I then went further to the nearest hobby shop - strictly r/c. They were out but they quoted me a price of $4.50 per sheet but their sheets were 6 inches X one foot ( almost double again ). I started figuring out the cost of a full sheet of 4 X 8 feet size at the quoted prices.

Mail order: 8 pieces to a 4 X 8 sheet --- $68.72 per 4X8 sheet

Craft store: 16 pieces to a 4 X 8 sheet - $ 143.84 per 4X8 sheet

Hobby shop: 64 pieces to a 4 X 8 sheet -- $ 288.00 per 4X8 sheet


That is $219.28 to cut up a sheet of plywood. They should hire me. I would cut the sheets any way they wanted for $10.00 per sheet.

[Peter Ferguson]

I'm not sure how your example relates to the thread subject. The cost of the ply at the hobby shop just reflects the cost from the distributor, the shop is not marking it up that high.

But to address your topic, the Hobby shops are buying from distributors who are selling directly via mail order. The distributors cut the shops a break and thus control the margin the shops can make. Low volume fixed margin with your distributor as your competitor, thats a tough way to make money.

[Dick Byron]

If you have a Rockler wood working store in your area try them. I purchased a 1/8" X 2'x 5' piece for $10.00. Woodworking stores are a good find.

[SteveMoon]

Lowest Common Denominator. That's why. People want the cheapest price and
that's all that really matters. Instead of just buying what you needed when you
found it, you kept searching for something cheaper. When you factor in gas and
the amount of time involved it may have been just as good a deal to buy the
first item you found. But, we are trained to always try to get the cheapest price.

When I worked at Hall's Hobby in Dallas for several years I used to say this all the
time. The all-timer was a local guy who wanted a way to mount his metal tanks on
his profile planes. I showed him the Brodak mounts that came four to a pack for
$1.09. His response: "well, I could make those out of brass myself for less than
that." REALLY!!!!! A DOLLAR!!!! He was actually complaining about spending A DOLLAR!
Please kill me!

There are two hobby shops in my area, and I try to divide my business between
them, and to buy as much as possible from them in order to support them and keep
them in business.

Later, Steve

[John Stiles]

Wrrrrong...........we are moving into a socialist society. You know, like; the USS(ocialist)R. That's where all small businesses are the first to go. In the end, we'll be standing in lines a mile long to get a loaf of bread. Now that's what I call line control Maybe some of the bigger hobby shops can request a shot of "economic stimulus"

[Bradley Walker]

Read a book called "Super Capitalism" by Robert Reich.

According to Reich, technological changes in the late 1960s and early 1970s transformed our economy from one that was dominated by large oligopolistic corporations producing goods in large volume at relatively low per-unit costs (raking in the benefits of economies of scale), free from foreign competition and having the ability to work with industry-wide labor unions to offer high wages and benefits. Companies were relatively "good" to their employees because they could more or less afford to be. Increased competition called for MASSIVE cost cutting. The shift in technology (technological improvements made possible by massive research & development investments during the Cold War era) made our "democratic capitalism" much more competitive and globalized. These improved technologies not only eroded this social-economic structure (Reich aptly calls it the "Not Quite Golden Age"), it also paved the way for investors to aggregate their savings in giant mutual funds and demand higher returns on their investments. So not only were the firms that were subject to foreign competition affected with cutting costs, but companies (mostly service-sector) that were thought to be exempt from foreign competition now faced demands to lower costs and maintain a lofty bottom line. As Reich flatly states in a somewhat understated fashion: "Power shifted to consumers and investors. Supercapitalism replaced democratic capitalism."

Technology has created an atmosphere that has effectively shrunk the world.  People can literally search the entire WORLD to find an item...  and if they so choose they can buy it there.  This effectively eliminates local economies as a function of price.

Frankly, I do not have many good experiences shopping retail.  I am mostly largely disappointed no matter who the vendor (for any item---not just modeling) and customer service is simply ABSENT because the workers that work these jobs now are less than excited to have their job.

I much prefer to just mail order everything... 

[posthole_digger]

My local hobby shop is a Hobby Town. All airplane related items is now behind an area boxed in by a counter counter. No looking yourself to find what you ant or maybe something else that you might want. You have to ask a sales clerk to get what you want and tell him/her the name of the item. Then you have to describe the item because he/she doesn't know anything about the hobby. How many times do you do this before you get on the computer and order it. Hobby Town doesn't care - they sell mostly games, stuffed animals, and crafts.

Paul

[john e. holliday]

Wait til the clerk throws the catalog on the counter and asks you to show them what you are looking for.   Just recently went in to get some stunt props in the 10 and 11 inch range.  Also looking for props for 1/2A's.  Was told by same clerk nobody uses those props any more and that nobody flies 1/2A.  I lloked at him and asked what rock he had been hiding under.  Turned around and left the store with the stuff I did find laying on the counter.  Do have a new shop up north Kansas City MO that is mainly R/C Cars, but will order any thing that is in the catalog.  He also had the props I needed because someone had been in earlier and ordered props. 

[John Stiles]

Wait til the clerk throws the catalog on the counter and asks you to show them what you are looking for.   Just recently went in to get some stunt props in the 10 and 11 inch range.  Also looking for props for 1/2A's.  Was told by same clerk nobody uses those props any more and that nobody flies 1/2A.  I lloked at him and asked what rock he had been hiding under.  Turned around and left the store with the stuff I did find laying on the counter.  Do have a new shop up north Kansas City MO that is mainly R/C Cars, but will order any thing that is in the catalog.  He also had the props I needed because someone had been in earlier and ordered props. 

I have a friend that just bought a raft of items including several motors, from a hobby shop discontinuing the stuff we love. He got the stuff really reasonable from what I understand. Best keep your eyes peeled, it may be up to us to gather up these loose ends and pieces to keep the passtime alive for future generations!

[Balsa Butcher]

I don't think it is as simple as expensive ply-wood or as subersive as a changing society. The economy is a factor but to a great extent the demise of the LHS as we know it is the change from a build and fly mind set to a buy and fly mind set. The current hobby shops for the most part are more toy or toy and craft shops than hobby shops as we remember them.  The Hobby Lobby chain comes to mind. Of the local (within 150 miles of where I live) they are either strictly R/C car shops or R/C car and park flier shops. Little in the way of balsa and building supplies at any of them. Limited prop selection, some wheels, CA glue, the usual Du-bro and tubing racks but not in all cases. 

But who can blame them? Shops have to stock what sells and modeling supplies in general and C/L goods in particular don't exactly leap off the rack. Fortunately there are a few exceptions: Smith Bros. in Northridge CA, one who's name I don't remember in Tucson. If you are fortunate enough to live in an area with a good, traditional hobby shop...support it or lose it. If not, thank goodness for the internet and the smaller niche manufacturers who aren't doing it to get rich but in many instances, just to keep our hobby/sport going.  They deserve our support.

[billbyles]

Hi Bill,

I posted this on the other forum in response to your quest for plywood:


For full-scale homebuilt airplanes I buy most of my materials from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Co. As for plywood, American made birch plywood, 1/16" thick, 90 degree ply, 4'x8' sheet sells for $93.25 per full sheet at Aircraft Spruce. The same plywood at 3/32" thick sells for $95.25 per sheet; 1/8" thick is $96.75. Shipping would add some, and they will sell it in 2'x4' sheets for very little more per square foot.

This is top quality aircraft grade birch plywood, made in America to actual inch thicknesses, not in Finland. While I have used Finnish plywood on rare occasions it is made in millimeter sizes approximating our 1/16", 3/32", 1/8", etc., and the sheets have not usually been flat, having a tendency to be curled.

[john e. holliday]

Hey Pete C., it is "Hobby Barn" in Tuscon as well as one "Hobby Town USA".   In Florida I met a gentleman that has a shop called "Southland R/C" who is trying to stock some C/L stuff.  Don't know if the guys are helping him or not. 

[Joe Messinger]

There is a hobby shop that I know of that of that carries all of the above mentioned items and much more.  The name is "Brodak's."

As, I'm sure, many of you know who have been there, the shop is stocked with just about anything you might need for control line flying.  Of course the bulk of Brodak's business is mail order.  Without that I don't think the retail store could exist.  Since the business is centered on control line model airplanes and the accessories that go with them, buying what you need either at the store or mail ordering items is easy.  Prices are good.

There are, certainly, other control line dedicated suppliers but I'm not sure how many have a walk in store.  A trip to Brodak's store is, for me, like going back fifty years or more in time but with many more things available than any of the hobby shops that I visited in the past.

Joe

[Balsa Butcher]

Well, I'll be visiting Hobby Barn in January, might be a little longer before I get to Brodak's brick and mortar shop but I've sure visited John's internet shop often. 

[Charlie Pate]

I gotta agree with Bradley Walker...Nuff said

[Alan Hahn]

Wrrrrong...........we are moving into a socialist society. You know, like; the USS(ocialist)R. That's where all small businesses are the first to go. In the end, we'll be standing in lines a mile long to get a loaf of bread. Now that's what I call line control Maybe some of the bigger hobby shops can request a shot of "economic stimulus"

Somehow I don't think the Walmart folks think they are socialists. I bet they think they are great capitalists!

I am as guilty as anyone else as going for low prices.

[Pinecone]

My local hobby shop is a Hobby Town. All airplane related items is now behind an area boxed in by a counter counter. No looking yourself to find what you ant or maybe something else that you might want. You have to ask a sales clerk to get what you want and tell him/her the name of the item. Then you have to describe the item because he/she doesn't know anything about the hobby. How many times do you do this before you get on the computer and order it. Hobby Town doesn't care - they sell mostly games, stuffed animals, and crafts.

Paul

It depends on the Hobby Town.  The one in Augusta, GA is great.  You can look around all you want.  But you still tend to have to ask, because Dave has SO much stuff in that store that only he knows what is there and where.

But I ALWAYS walk out with more than I thought I needed.

[Mike Ferguson]

They're going out of business for three reasons - selection, cost, and convenience.

One of my "other" hobbies is roleplaying games - yes, Dungeons & Dragons.  I've been professionally writing rulebooks and adventures for the past several years, and it's kind of nice to have a hobby where you make spending money!  Part of the experience has let me learn a lot about the business end of things, which includes all the stores.  And the stores that sell those games are having identical problems to the stores that sell engines, or balsa wood, or anything else we use for building and flying airplanes.

In the case of games, Amazon.com is the killer.  You can pretty much get any game you could find at a store - and more, since the selection's usually better - for a far better price, and without having to drive anywhere.  It's very hard to compete with that.

The stores that do successfully compete with that offer two things that online stores can't - service, and a place to meet.  The few surviving good stores around where I live schedule gaming events to get people into the store, and have fantastic customer service, going the extra mile to get people what they want while doing it with a smile on their faces.

Stunt's no different.  For the most part, I can get everything I need from Lone Star, Randy Smith, and a few other people just by picking up the phone.  Selection, cost, and convenience are pretty hard to beat.

I suspect any local hobby shop selling stuff for model airplanes might want to do the same sorts of things as the stores I mentioned above.  Sponsor contests, or offer to host local club meetings. Any make sure the customer service is fantastic.  If the service is lousy, you're giving me one less reason to drive to your store and buy things.

-Mike

[Ward Van Duzer]

Every hobbiest should be sentenced to working in a hobby shop for a minimum of 6 months. The only underlying word I can think you will think of after such an experience  is “CHEEP”. The average modeler would rather save $0.30 than be able to rely on his LHS.

The guy that walks into his hobby shop with his Tower Hobbies catalog under his arm and has the nerve to compare the LHS price to the catalog in front of the owner. He then walks out and pays $20.00 postage to the USPS.

The guy that comes into the LHS 3 minutes to five on Monday nite screaming about the shop being closed on Sunday morning when he burned out his ONLY glo plug and had to go home instead of enjoying a day at the field. Or, broke his ONLY prop.

Or the guy who buys a $500.00 fiberglass Corsair kit and returns it to the shop wanting a refund when the epoxy he NEVER MIXED went all goooey, and never cured!

Or the newbe hobbiest that claims to be a 747 pilot and has no need for the shop recommended R/C trainer. Right, guess what happened here! He wants a refund too based on the fact that his $1,000.00 Warbird was improperly engineered. (Real pilots are the worst!)

Yes, in some cases like this I’ve seen the owner make the refund hoping that the customer will come back and heed their advice. Won’t happen. They’re too embarrassed.

Let’s consider the suppliers as well. During August they make a big play on a ‘special’ to the shop owners of a Beltchfire .40 for $69.00. Buy 4 at $65.00 each. Good deal, order 4.
Now their September Newsletter goes out to their retail customer base with the Beltchfire .40 listed at a ‘fantastic buy’ for $49.95! True. I’ve seen this happen too many times. Is there really any motivation for the suppliers to support the wholesale customer base?

Now, it’s true that many of the items we C/L’s use are unique to our sport. But if you are willing to show your LHS how to obtain some of this stuff I’m sure he would order it for you. It shouldn’t take him any longer to get these items once he understands, and learns where to go to get them. And you know what? You’ll most likely save the postage! 

I could go on. But I think you get the picture. The LHS is never going to make anyone rich. I’m sure you know most of the owners still have full time jobs. Back in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s when all of this started we used to say “SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL HOBBY SHOP”. We didn’t do a very good job. So let’s do it again. “SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL HOBBY SHOP”

The next time you go down there, buy TWO glo plugs. Buy a BOX of props. Trust me, you’ll use them. And maybe “BJ’s Hobbies”  will be there next week.


Ward-O

[john kennedy]

Ward, you're on my bus.I like what you say. You have a good command of english. .. jk

[SteveMoon]

Bravo Ward! Having worked several years at a hobby shop I feel
your pain. The cheapness factor is aggrevating beyond description.
Of course, we all want to get the best price possible for a product.
But, the average consumer looks ONLY at price. He/she does not
take into account personal customer service, customer/proprietor
relationships, or convenience.

On several occasions we had people bring in items that they had
mail/internet ordered needing repair (and wanting it for free as if
we were an auto dealership providing warranty service). I'm sure
any of you could guess our response: Tough S**T! You get what
you pay for. Ask yourself, is it really worth it to save that nickel
or two?

Later, Steve

[Marco Beschizza]

I just recently joined Stunthangers and wrote the reply to "who is that guy". The response I have found amazing and as to the rest of the site the reading is extraordinary interesting. This topic grabbed me immensely. I am a European and have lived in four countries and traveled 13 and reading this board and the replies one thing shines out clearly to my mind is that the word "cheap" has now become a mind-set in so many countries, not just America. Cheap brings a saving that can be beneficial but long term cheap is destructive.

Cheap often reflects in quantity not quality, and often means because it is cheap some aspect of why it is cheap reflects in something else. That could be the material itself is of poor quality, its life expectancy doubtful, the training that the staff received to make it was inadequate, the poor service that is required to present it or deliver it creates lost revenue long term, the business that supplies it is declining because of low profits that diminishes capital investment and future skilled labor. But the biggest factor it that someone is paid less to compensate for its price. Whatever the reason one mans gain is another mans loss and the long term evolution of this thinking is where the world is now today. We are all losing and the problem is rapidly advancing as junk piles up at the docks and products quickly become items of waste along with the people who made them.

As a European I lived in Germany for a long time and I soon realized the benefits of thinking expensive not cheap and also realized its productive benefit. Things are made to last there and they are made using skilled labor that has pride and enjoyment in there work and is backed by technology. Not the other way around where the technology comes first and the skilled labor is left out and replaced by a dope. You end up with no work force just a lot of dumb machines that cannot adapt to any thing else except what the are programmed to do and people standing looking at each other not knowing what to do. Technology is of no use without knowledge. Employees soon loose interest, change jobs frequently and become lethargic. Shopkeepers and manufactures are then reliant on semi-skilled workers not people wishing to be trained but cannot be because the market dictates there future. It must be cheap so no training is offered.

I need good wood and I need a good engines for the planes I intend to build, so I will look for the best even if I have to wait a little longer to pay for the items. I will look for the best home grown, like Jett Engerering, the BSE range because holding it my hand will make me feel good, a cheap import will not. And I will support the man who offers me skilled labor that made the products I need because he has pride and passion in what he offers to me. The price will not matter because it will reflect back in the years of service it will provide, sale and after and also in the society I live in, a society that should be content and not dogged by greed, discontentment and exploitation.

Going mail order will mean there is only streets , cars and roads, no shops and people who no longer communicate because there is nothing to talk about, because a machine is now taken there job and a monitor is their entire world. How sad it might all become.

Think about that and you will soon understand why your model shop is going under or having to sell cheap crap, that really no one wants if they were honest!

What car would you really like to buy, I wounder!! a deal because it was cheap. Its all a mind set. The wrong one. My clients think I should be as cheap as what they can get from China, but they come back and buy what I make because they cannot get what I make from China. There not investing in there skills, there investing in there machines. I have none, only my hands and invested heavily in them.

Why waste your your time driving around trying to save a dollar. You end up loosing two one way or the other and become a few hours older doing it. If I live in Germany I support Germany, I now live in the USA, so I support the USA, its better for me long term. So one reply was dead on the money, buy two plugs not one and five props and make sure they came from the guy down the road. That works!!


Marco

[Eric Viglione]

Right on! "Cheap" also has a huge effect on economy's and a nation's manufacturing. Look at something simple like refrigerators. Seems like almost everyone I knew up north has a 50year old Frigidaire in their basement relegated to holding over-stock, yet we think nothing of replacing our modern wonder fridge every 5-9 years up in our kitchens. To compete with "Cheap" off shore stuff, US makers first started by having key components made off-shore, then eventually the whole thing is from out of the US, made on robotic assembly lines with questionable metallurgy and manufacturing processes compromised.

We've done it to ourselves really. If we just didn't fall prey to the siren song of "cheap" and were willing to pay for the better made stuff, the other "cheap" stuff would wither on the vine. As it stands, the "cheap" stuff isn't even serviceable when it breaks, it's just disposable. Don't get me started...heh. Extended warranties are a joke, when the warranty companies refuse to honor them cause they are out of replacement units and yours in un-repairable. Hey Fitton, how's your 4th (or is it 5th?) DVD recorder running?

EricV