News:



  • June 23, 2025, 07:53:06 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: .2 Carbon Veil or 3/4oz fiberglass cloth over sheet wing for stiffness  (Read 2118 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4403
Guys,
Working on a Fox35 speed ship with a sheet wing (like a rat racer size). The ship has full length spruce spar 1/4x5/16 and a main 8" center maple doubler spar (for hold down bolts and bellcrank mount). The rest of the wing is medium balsa. I want to add some additional stiffness and was considering either .2 carbon veil or 3/4oz fiberglass cloth, would attach with finishing epoxy. Wing is shaped, sanded and has 3 coats of Butyrate Sig lite coat. I was wondering if anyone has used the carbon veil with finishing resin over flaps or wings? I know many have used the fiberglass on flaps using the scrap and toilet paper method and it is very stiff and light. Would the carbon be as stiff and light or cause of the openness of the material be heavier with a lot of extra resin or filler? What would be a better option?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Abi

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Ensign
  • **
  • Posts: 44
Veil will do fine. You can also do fiberglass, but that's extra weight that does not offset additional stiffness. You've already built a proper stiff wing structure: why add more?
I would also suggest using unthinned dope to attach it. This will "melt it" to the substrate and keep the weight down.
Abi
السلام عليكم

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4403
I am concerned with the veil being a big resin sponge that will not allow scraping without ripping the veil. The glass on the other hand can be wet out then scraped an toilet paper soak off which is very light. Seems the veil would be heavier because of not being able to scrape of the excess resin?

Best,   DennisT

Online Motorman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3673
Dennis, CF veil won't add the stiffness you want. Did you see my post on your other thread?

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/fiberglass-polyester-resin-over-dope/

This will help resist bending and twist.

MM
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Online Lauri Malila

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1733
.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 02:17:25 PM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12899
My gut feel is that you should vacuum bag it, or just not worry about it.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10265
How fast could a Fox .35 stunt powered speed model possibly go? Anybody have actual results they can quote? I can't envision anything over 100mph. I'm thinking it's an East Coast thing?

I built no less than four B Proto speed models (ST G.21 .29rv) when I was a few years younger. They had similar wing construction, and none had fiberglass or carbon fiber on the wing. Spans were typically about 34", with 125 sq. in. as required by the rules...although nobody ever checked or calculated it but me.  D>K Steve


"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4403
The Fox35 speed ships go around 100+mph. Granted it has a little smaller wing maybe 110 sq in or so there is no minimum wing area. It is designed to be a fun event that doesn't require master machining equipment, simple suction fuel feed, 2 line controls, no tuned pipes, no carbon or fiberglass props (basically wood, APC, Master Airscrew). Fuel is 5%N 25% castor and balance methanol. The ship is timed for 14 laps from launch (like Proto).

Since I used only medium hard balsa for the wing I wanted to add a little toughness to the surface so that's why I am considering using the glass like we do for flaps.

Best,    DennisT 

Online Motorman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3673
I have a big roll of 1.6oz glass cloth that I use on flaps, proflie fuselages and any kind of slab flying surface to make it stiffer. It seems to be a good compromise between weight and strength and it's dirt cheap compared to CF.
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline Les Akre

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
Hi Dennis

That speed class is basically a "Quickie Rat" size air frame. Since this class requires the Fox "vibrator special" aka 35 stunt, I would heavily glass the wing/fuse joint, and the cheek cowl area. Boxing in the bearers at the front by the prop driver is also recommended. The glass should strengthen the joints, but mostly prevents inevitable "Hanger Rash". Use some sort of epoxy to adhere the cloth, bagging is best, then add strips to strengthen the joints. Strength is more important than light weight...dope is not your friend here.

Les

Offline Dave Hull

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
What Les said.

Both of these Quicky Rats have solid wood wings. The center stub spar is maple. The leading edges are western bigleaf maple. (Not eastern "rock" maple.) The balsa in front of the spar is firmer but not rock hard. The balsa behind the wing is almost "stunty." Both are covered with 0.58 oz/yd2 glass and EZ-Lam epoxy. Both wings are plenty durable enough for racing and wing catches. The "Lumberyard" in the back has hundreds of flights and races. The target speed for these is 105 mph. Racing is a lot like protospeed except that acceleration out of the pit counts 3 times per race and not just once.

The glass/epoxy makes it fuel-proof and much more durable. It adds stiffness even though the wings are thin. If you are more worried about flutter and twist, then lay down the cloth at 45 degrees from the spar line.

I wouldn't mess with carbon mat. And either pressing the wing layup or bagging it is the way to go since it is simply much easier--and it gives a much better and potentially lighter result. If you do it right, the wing comes out of the press ready to fly, or ready to apply your trim. There's another thread here somewhere where I went thru the whole process. If you are having to sand into your reinforcement (glass or carbon) then you are doing something wrong.

This isn't the same as making F2C wings, so that standard (carbon cloth style and weight) isn't likely the best answer. The difference is the wing loading and the honkin' vibratin' motor...and the fact that a really good Quicky Rat will "shake down" in less than half a lap into the pitman's hand. The wing loads are considerable....
« Last Edit: July 08, 2023, 11:52:33 PM by Dave Hull »

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4403
I agree the FOX35 speed ship is designed similar to a Quicky Rat, just don't need as much as maneuverability so a little longer tail moment and less elevator. It is a fun event more should try it. My ship has an inverted engine with hard maple mounts that extend passed the TE of the wing, sides are basswood, bellcrank is mounted inside the fuse with external line connections. Since it doesn't need to be caught for a pit stop the wing is balsa with the full-length spar and center doubler spar.

I think I will just add the 3/4oz glass with the finishing resin to protect from hanger rash and handling during transport.

What is the simplest way to make a press? What material do you use between the glass/resin and press blocks?

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 11:29:41 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12899
It is designed to be a fun event that doesn't require master machining equipment,

Sounds like NW B Proto speed (AKA "Geezer Speed") that we fly around here, although we arrive at the same place via a different path.  The rules for NW B Proto do allow all sorts of engine modifications -- but it still has to have stock 25LA innards, so there's not much that you can do on a lathe and milling machine that you couldn't do with a bench grinder, file, and perseverance.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dave Hull

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
Dennis,

I searched here on the 'hanger and in my files and couldn't find a writeup on pressing wings--but I know I have described it before, and perhaps recently. (I'm getting the deja vu vibe here.)

Here are the basics:

--Prep your solid balsa wing until it is ready for glass (or carbon). Sanding finer than 220 grit is probably a waste of time?

--Clear off your bench to work over. Being FLAT is probably pretty important!

--If you have a flat bench and can leave your wing on it for a day to fully cure, you will only need one thick plywood sheet. I like 3/4" thick FLAT wood. If you don't have a flat bench or you need to move the wing somewhere else to cure you need two sheets of plywood and a bunch of long bolts (all-thread and nuts) that are evenly spaced around the entire periphery. This is what makes a press. The foam blocks fit just inside this bolted perimeter. If you can use your benchtop, then you can just use one plywood sheet on top and then load that down with a lot of weight to cause the pressing action.

--If the wing is semi-symmetrical, you will need two urethane foam blocks a couple of inches thick. One goes beneath the wing; one goes on top. This is the yellowish foam rubber used in furniture upholstery. Blocks with a smooth surface are needed, or the resulting wing won't be smooth.* If the wing is fully flat-bottomed (some of mine are) then you can skip the foam block on the bottom. In that case, I generally lay down a piece of window glass over the bench to improve the surface finish of the bottom of the wing. There are ways you can "fudge" the leading edge of a wing that has some bottom curvature but is otherwise flat. The two-foam-block approach doesn't have this problem.

--Go scrounge two pieces of Monokote backing material with no wrinkles to sandwich your wet layup be sure they are at least 3" bigger than your wing dimensions. If you have one bigger piece, so much the better, just fold it in the middle for extra insurance that the epoxy won't leak onto your (expensive) foam blocks

--Get your other materials and tools and go thru the sequence mentally to make sure you have everything ready. Cut the glass a couple of inches oversize in all directions. Don't try to fold the glass over any edges. If you want two layers of glass in the center for extra stiffness and strength, cut out all your pieces because they are all going on in one wet layup and cure cycle.
 
--Mix your EZ-Lam 30 minute laminating resin. You need enough to do both sides of the wing at once. Trying to do one side at a time is harder, takes longer and doesn't give as good a result. Don’t thin the EZ-Lam epoxy. It isn’t necessary and only bad things can happen. We’re not screwing with glue here, this is material that is designed to wet out on tight weave lightweight cloth. Anyone trying to use bonding epoxy that has a lot of fillers or thixotropic material is on their own. A little experience and good record-keeping will tell you about how much to mix for x-square inches of y-weight cloth. But don’t worry too much if you run out while wetting everything out. You can mix up another batch. The EZ-Lam is not going to go off on you while doing a small wing unless you really didn’t have things ready at the outset.

--Lay one foam block on the bench with the best side up. Lay a sheet of Monokote backing over that. Lay your glass for the bottom surface on the plastic. Now paint a complete coating of EZ-Lam on the bottom of the wood wing. I use a 1” china bristle throwaway brush. I brush it as thin as it will easily go on the wood. It still looks wet and shiny. Don’t remove any of this epoxy—you need it on there. It is almost the perfect amount for laying up .58 to 1 oz cloth. For heavier cloth I brush on a little heavier. Don’t agonize over the exact amount since the purpose of the next two steps are to force the cloth down against the wood, thereby avoiding cloth that is “floating” on a bed of resin and causing things to get heavy. Properly pressed, the excess epoxy will be squeezed out to the edges. Now lay the wing down on your pre-placed glass. And paint the other side with resin. Drape the top glass over the wing. Get it down straight and centered. I like to hold each “wingtip” of the glass and let it touch the wet wood in the middle and let it slowly roll out to the tips. No wrinkles means less fooling around with it. When it is down (all the layers) place your other sheet of plastic over it, or if you had one big sheet then fold it over. Now go wash your hands off. All the sticky stuff is inside the plastic and must stay there.

--Take a playing card of small piece of cereal box cardboard and squeegee as needed to get rid of bubbles and any wrinkles. You can move big lumps of excess resin around some, but if you painted the resin on evenly, you aren’t going to need to do much. Any real excess gets moved the TE or LE. Extra resin here is good. Do this to both sides. With everything encased in plastic it is easy to handle and work on. This is like a vacuum bag that you don’t have to seal up.

--With any air bubbles removed and the plastic laying down evenly (no rolling hills of epoxy), position it in the very center of the press (foam block) and add the top foam block. Add the plywood top plate. Either start screwing down the press, or if you are using just the top plate, add lots of weight to it. For a solid balsa wing that is laying down flat, you can add a lot and not worry about things breaking. I might end up with over a hundred pounds stacked on top. One thing to be careful of is that if your weight distribution isn’t even, over an hour or two the whole stack may tilt. And heavy expensive stuff (machinist knees), or messy stuff (full cans of housepaint) might go on the floor. You can help prevent that by using a set of equal-size stop blocks with one under each corner of the plywood. Give the foam an inch or so (YMMV) to compress and then hit the stop.

--Let it fully cure for a day; two if you have time. If you did everything right, the wing will come out as smooth as you plastic sheet and foam block. If you didn’t cheat yourself, the glass will be fully filled and either be ready to fly, or you can scuff sand it an paint on your trim.

I didn’t invent any of this. Racers and others have been doing this since probably the 1960’s. It is still around because it works.

* For an even better finish, you can use cauls outside the layup and avoid minor blemishes from slightly imperfect foam blocks. I have used cauls made from thin nylon sheet that will conform to the wing. This works on single-curvature shapes only.

Offline Dave Hull

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
Here's a drawing of a wing press as used by Don Burke, a friend who raced in SoCal:

https://nclra.org/TechTopics/WingPress/WingPressCad.pdf

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4403
Dave,
Thanks for all your work in pulling this information together, it will help me and likely lots of others. Question, since you apply the bottom and top glass pieces at the same time they meet along the leading and trailing edges, how to you get a clean smooth edge?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dave Hull

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2108
Most of this type of speed/racing wing is fairly thin and has a fairly sharp leading edge. The wet glass from top and bottom will merge together at the very tip as long as you are using lightweight cloth. The edge is saturated with resin because that's where you want the excess to go. After curing, cut off the dry glass and any thin wetted glass with shears. Then sand with a block, blending the leading edge back to your airfoil shape. With a hardwood LE I'm not worried about sanding thru the glass at the very tip. On the trailing edge I sand back to a square edge. Smear epoxy into any voids that formed at the LE and TE. If you don't short yourself on resin and you drape the cloth carefully, you can avoid most air bubbles left in the LE and TE as it cures. Attention to detail saves lots of work fixing things later.

If you want a really thin reinforced TE then after you have the bottom laid up, and painted on the resin to the top but before draping the glass on the top lay in a small bundle of carbon tow against the TE. Keep it all behind the wood blank, but in contact with it. Then add the top glass. Be careful while squeegeeing the resin; try not to go towards the TE. What you are left with is a thin, trapizoidal carbon "rod" that is integral with the wing and reinforces the TE. F2C wings used to be reinforced this way before they went all-carbon.

The attached picture is of a pair of wings for the Torquette Proto-speed biplane design by Dale Kirn. Solid balsa wings covered in .58 oz/yd2 glass. Once the glass was trimmed off, they were ready for paint.

The LE and TE conformity and bubbles issues are minimized further if you use a vacuum bag approach. The issue there (for me) is to not get too aggressive with the vacuum pressure and end up globally starving the layup. Cranking down on the regulator and leaving the pump on thru the cure will pull the resin out from under the glass and you won't have a unified structure. The finished part will have "white blush" areas and often pinholes in the glass. You can try to salvage a part like this if it is just local (it usually is not) by wicking thin CyA into the glass there. On any serious project, better to start over. I have found on some wing shapes using a hybrid approach of vacuum bag and wing press works well.

Dave
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 03:43:39 PM by Dave Hull »

Offline Curare

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 803
Most of this type of speed/racing wing is fairly thin and has a fairly sharp leading edge. The wet glass from top and bottom will merge together at the very tip as long as you are using lightweight cloth. The edge is saturated with resin because that's where you want the excess to go. After curing, cut off the dry glass and any thin wetted glass with shears. Then sand with a block, blending the leading edge back to your airfoil shape. With a hardwood LE I'm not worried about sanding thru the glass at the very tip. On the trailing edge I sand back to a square edge. Smear epoxy into any voids that formed at the LE and TE. If you don't short yourself on resin and you drape the cloth carefully, you can avoid most air bubbles left in the LE and TE as it cures. Attention to detail saves lots of work fixing things later.

If you want a really thin reinforced TE then after you have the bottom laid up, and painted on the resin to the top but before draping the glass on the top lay in a small bundle of carbon tow against the TE. Keep it all behind the wood blank, but in contact with it. Then add the top glass. Be careful while squeegeeing the resin; try not to go towards the TE. What you are left with is a thin, trapizoidal carbon "rod" that is integral with the wing and reinforces the TE. F2C wings used to be reinforced this way before they went all-carbon.

The attached picture is of a pair of wings for the Torquette Proto-speed biplane design by Dale Kirn. Solid balsa wings covered in .58 oz/yd2 glass. Once the glass was trimmed off, they were ready for paint.

The LE and TE conformity and bubbles issues are minimized further if you use a vacuum bag approach. The issue there (for me) is to not get too aggressive with the vacuum pressure and end up globally starving the layup. Cranking down on the regulator and leaving the pump on thru the cure will pull the resin out from under the glass and you won't have a unified structure. The finished part will have "white blush" areas and often pinholes in the glass. You can try to salvage a part like this if it is just local (it usually is not) by wicking thin CyA into the glass there. On any serious project, better to start over. I have found on some wing shapes using a hybrid approach of vacuum bag and wing press works well.

Dave

Dave, I've experienced similar issues when bagging, and I suspect that it's the balsa "gassing off" under vaccuum, . I have a few ideas on how to stop it, 1, seal the balsa prior to bagging and 2, put the balsa under vaccuum prior to laminating, but I haven't had the opportunity to try yet.
Greg Kowalski
AUS 36694

Tags: