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Author Topic: Drone Degree?  (Read 2400 times)

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Drone Degree?
« on: August 09, 2018, 10:33:38 AM »
Beginning this Fall, our Lane Community College, in Eugene, Oregon will begin a 2-year program of study leading to an Associate Degree in "Commercial Unmanned Aerial Systems", better known as "drones".  They have not released details regarding scope of classes.

I anticipate long lines at the Admissions Office.  I mention this so you can reserve your place in line to enroll.
90 years, but still going (mostly)
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Offline peabody

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2018, 10:56:38 AM »
I would wager that it is a prep course for the FAA license.
I would also venture that a large percentage of the recreational flyers will drop out....FAA regs are boring, and they will learn that most of their flying has been illegal.

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2018, 11:11:11 AM »
They’ve been doing that here at University of Kansas/Polytech for a couple years now.  I think it’s only 14 weeks here.

Dave
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2018, 11:47:11 AM »
For the last two or three decades, the Air Force has had a terrible time recruiting pilots into their drone programs. They required that these be actual, rated pilots. Very, very few wanted to work those programs. So, is the AF going to complain about the new crop of non-rated pilots rushing to specialize in drone flight? I don't think so. They are going to set a complexity/cost threshold and any vehicles below that will be flown by "feet on the ground only" pilots. The Army has already reconnoitered the way....

You have to start thinking of drones as only one tentacle of cyber warfare. We can all make that go away if we simply unplug our chip-driven devices and throw them away. Any volunteers?

The problem is that hobbiests have adopted military technologies as their own, and now believe they "own" the capability. What they have really done is provide a massive market that allowed economies of scale. And now we are swimming in autonomous flight chips loaded with sophisticated software....

Dave

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2018, 12:16:20 PM »
ON a serious note..... many variations of Drone...not specifically air born autonomous devices

Austin had prof of concept with autonomous buses starting soon
UBER and others playing with AI autonomous cars
Amazon local delivery  airborne and VAN

Hell even burger flippers and future fully automated McDonalds...yes Virginia it is coming ---and sooner than you think....screw a bunch of whiny babies who think they are worth a paltry $15 per hour...Drone and Automation Technology are very closely related

Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has had and will have many many air and ground DRONES

Air born drones these days for legit efforts like power line inspection, lost human search, Real estate sales, Game management, Water managment, accurate fire survey in remote areas......well many of these devices exceed $20,000 and are VERY sophisticated and all operators MUST comply with DOT FAA registration and licensing

Great career field that will and does command a pretty good salary....

I have a close friend who contracts to five county Sheriff departments...has three employees and 6 craft.... his take is over $100G per year......lost children, Meth labs, Poachers, escaped prisoners, occasionally help with Deer and Hog population surveys

I imagine as the field grows there will be more and more schooling and licensing required.... very lucrative and stable field to enter IMO
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2018, 12:20:57 PM »
Tried to get Samantha to go into that, starting pay is 80,000 a year. Fire and safety are getting in too this big time  so are police departments. This will be big in the future.

Offline peabody

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2018, 12:35:42 PM »
Florida estimates that they will need 15,000 in the next three years.
Some are getting the part 107 license and then treating it like a Part 135 operation. Pilots flying under their license.

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2018, 01:57:49 PM »
Steve I hear you....mu son is 34 and a current master electrician for a BIG electrical contractor...very over worked as there is just no apprentices entering the field... he makes a damned bit more than I ever did in my highest earning years...very proud of my boy...

That said, he is seriously thinking of changing into this carer field....

the tech transfers well, he is more and more having to adapt SMART technology into the very high end businesses and homes his company bid on.... Recent Billionaire in Austin had a 300 Million dollar home built with the best of the best EVERY thing in it....son had to spend three months in Germany with the lighting company to learn the NETWORK and electrical needs for the system

Bottom line is this is a wide open filed with a great potential and the early in folks will command the biggest salary....
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Bill Morell

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2018, 02:49:13 PM »
Maybe they  will recruit them for Trump's "Space Force". Generally speaking I like "most" of what he has done or is trying to do but I think it is a waste of money as the military is already strained enough.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 07:30:32 PM by Bill Morell »
Bill Morell
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2018, 04:19:29 PM »
   Several years ago the Air Force started to change their view of UAV operators and have a UAV specific program at the Air Force Academy. They are even changing their views of UAV ops being conducted in theater. It seems that the operators were having trouble feeling "engaged" in the missions being so far from the theater of operations. It's all changing as fast as I can type this. Maybe my son  Sean may see this and give us his perspective as he's getting ready for his sixth tour of duty over seas as a UAV operator.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline dale gleason

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2018, 05:27:33 PM »
Klyde Morris scoffed when Zif opened his Drone Flight School, but, then the $$ came rolling in.

dale g

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2018, 08:42:40 PM »
I am the Squadron Commander of the Billy Mitchell Senior Squadron which is one of 18 squadrons in the Louisiana Wing of the Civil Air Patrol.  We have several squadrons who have dedicated individuals who have been through training in conjunction with the Air Force and are using these in Search and Rescue Missions.  They have to go through extensive training to become operators.

They are being used on a limited basis at the present time but have been deployed in special circumstances.  The mainstay of search and rescue missions for us is still with an aircrew and ground teams and it will probably stay that way.

Mike

Online Matt Colan

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2018, 06:11:52 AM »
Embry-Riddle has an unmanned aerial systems technology degree. Their major is a combination of flying and engineering, where you had to take some coding and electronics classes in addition to UAS and flying classes. When I was in school, I switched to a UAS major thinking I would enjoy it. I turned out to hate it and I ended up starting to mix in work with pleasure. Also taking their basic coding class was way over my head and had to think in such a different way than I’m used to. Riddle touted the job opportunities for the future and how some of the jobs didn’t even exist yet. We even had to sign an NDA in order to participate in the degree program because some of the stuff that was taught to us was sensitive in nature.

Needless to say, after a semester and a half in the UAS program I switched ATC from my minor to my major and have been enjoying every part of my career since.
Matt Colan

Offline EddyR

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2018, 09:11:39 AM »
I have been a DOD contractor since 1961. Most of those years doing antenna work for the air force & cia.
Two years ago when I was only 76! I got a letter asking if I would like to train in civilian drone operation. Very high clearance is needed to enter this program,that was why I was getting the offer. I felt  I was to old and it had cia written all over it.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2018, 12:44:33 PM »
Just some random thoughts based on my military and DoD experiences

Hackers are recruited to change from Black Hat to White hat and are very well compensated I  know three personally

Space Command or Space Force is GOING to be a reality IF congress does the right thing and creates the department and funding...Trump just wanting it is only step one...Congress Must appropriate for the new Service

Drones, AI, and many many other Automation technologies are a real and very near term reality,,,,BUT we MUST demand Sky Net Can Not happen

Trump is very correct that we MUST have adaptable and robust MANUFACTURING capability.....firing up USA to support the needs of WWWIII is exponentially more needed ( needed faster) than in WWII when the entire country was under rationed commodities because all needed food and material went to the WAR effort

China....working Nukes....defensive or offensive no true certainty
Russia...working Nukes....defensive or offensive no true certainty
Pakistan.working Nukes....assumed defensive with India
India.....working Nukes....assumed defensive with Pakistan
N Korea.Working Nukes.... we know mainly regime protection
Iran...I believe ALREADY have working Nukes...Stated publicly the total destruction of Israel
Israel...Working Nukes and currently posture to preemptive strikes in Syria and Iran

Russia, USA, French, Britten,....Well Trump seems to talk a pretty bellicose willing to use OUR power ---but I doubt actual Nuking of Iran or N Korea and certainly no First strike....

I do get the notion that if Iran screws around with Israel... there may be some smoking holes inside Iran boarders ( unoccupied land) as a very strong finger wag.......

Back to High Tech Jobs...automation and drones and satellite tech are all going to need very well trained and dedicated recruits

In some ways I tend to think our world is very very more dangerous vs the years, when as a student, we had Atomic drills to hide under our desks of move the the Civil Defense shelters....BTW where are they now?
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline EddyR

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2018, 07:17:50 AM »
Ty  I am sure when I typed CIA on here it was picked up and I was checked out.  My clearance is still enforce.
 EddyR
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Jason Greer

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2018, 04:16:17 PM »
I feel like a drone every day when I get up for work...too bad this wasn't available when I was in school. Oh, you mean a different kind of drone...
El Dorado, AR
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2018, 11:41:51 AM »
Ah Jason, semantics ...yep .....fun stuff

One of many problems, right now, in our society is the over emphasis on a College degree ---and NO! I am in no way saying getting a good degree is BAD----We do need many more chemists, engineers, physicists, doctors, and other areas we lack in any appreciable quantity to keep up with demand...forcing us to import the talent

Unfortunately spending $100 to $300K on a liberal arts degree is a drag on the system and takes another otherwise productive citizen out of adding to the GDP

Right now, today--- there is a severe, even chronic lack of CRAFTSMEN:
Brick layers
Electricians
Framers
Roofers
HVAC
Plumbers
Carpenters
Steel workers
Concrete and re-bar workers
Truck Drivers
Auto technicians ( motorcycle, airplane, and boat also)
Autonomous vehicle technology and production

Hell every Military service right now has very high standards and have some difficulty recruiting for a lot of specific fields
Cooks, Grunts...MEH (metaphorical shrug)----Ok we need about 200 and we train you
Geeks and Nerds with math and language skills..we need 500 and will pay a good bonus if you join for 4

Lots of folks tend to describe these and any factory jobs as DRONES.......funny when you consider a $15 wage at McDonalds as the base

most every job listed above is liable to provide over $50K per year salary

College or trade schools I predict (they are now) will actually be a big and bigger business in the very near future is this current economy keeps a 3 to 5% GDP pace for a while....

IMO if we did not put over 40+ % of our population on moth balls the last three decades with excessive social safety nets...we could be growing at 5% to 7% GDP

I am the only conservative in my crowd that actually believes we NEED a immigration system that truly seeks to let IN skills we NEED BUT exclude, WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE, any drugs, human traffic, and Gangsters

"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 12:26:13 AM »
Oh man, where to start...

I've been in the Army's UAS field for over 14 years now.  Seen the whole UAS field change hands from Military Intelligence to the Aviation branch.  Quite a bit of headache and hassle for awhile but its getting there.  The RQ-7 Shadow was...marginally reliable when I first trained on it.  Through the years it received several aviation-spec upgrades to make it more robust, though it is still the only thing flying in the Army that runs on AVGAS.  Several attempts were and still are being made to carry munitions, but seems to be too costly for what Department of the Army is willing to Pay  The MQ-1C Gray Eagle program, a turbo-diesel version of the Predator, came about to answer the need for an armed platform.  I've been flying it since 2012. When I was in Iraq in 2016, Army UAS and Air Force RPAs were the primary shooters, with the "sense-to-shoot" time being far less than anything else flying.  That was definitely the highlight year of my career to date, as I'd never thought I'd see unmanned platforms utilized that way.


The Air Force is facing a big deficit in its unmanned program; so much so that pilot programs (no pun intended) are being conducted using enlisted operators to fly the RQ-4 Global Hawk.  There's nothing wrong with it on the whole:  Army has been doing it for over 20 years successfully and proved that enlisted operators can employ munitions successfully.  But all is not so bright and sunny.  There are still many shortcomings in Army UAS compared to its manned conterpart.

-Initial Training:  Rotory wing basic flight training in the Army last from 15 months to two years, with follow-on training from there depending on airframe.  Much On-the-job training happens at the unit level, but pilots exiting Ft Rucker with their wings are fairly competent. 

UAS operators leave Ft Huachuca after only 24 weeks and, dispite a heavilly automated system, still know barely enough to not crash.  Friends of mine who have left the Army to work at schoolhouse at Ft Huachuca tell me that class content is constantly being trimmed to shorten the course and crank out operators, placing the burden of training more and more on the unit who, 9 times out of 10, are trying to train up for upcoming deployments.  We get Soldiers who have the aviator academic equivelancy of a 3rd grader (I had a Soldier come to my last unit who couldnt draw a cross section of an airfoil) and received no training on critical skills like weapons employment.  Since I've been in, I've also seen the prerequisite ASVAB and GT scores drop in order to bolster class sizes, and the end product reflects.

-Unit training:  Manned aviators typically receive additonal duties to help occupy their time and help keep the unit rolling, but for the most part, their focus is on flying and flight related training.

UAS Operators?  Details....mow the grass, occupy the staff duty desk at brigade or the barracks, man the airfield gate, and whatever menial task comes down the tasking pipeline.  This also has to do with...

-Pilot/Operator Prestige:  Now I cant think of anyone who is going to have any luck picking up a date at the bar on saturday night with "yeah I fly drones" as their pickup line.  Thats not the argument.  The problem is how the Army itself looks at UAS operators versus manned aviators. 

Helicopter pilots are pretty well respected throughout the Army.  CH-47 Chinooks and UH-60 Blackhawks insert and extract ground troops from hostile areas and AH-64 Apache pilots get to blow stuff up.  How cool pilots are.  They receive incentive pay and can be awarded their own commendations (Air Medal and Distinguished Flying Cross) for doing an awesome job.

UAS Operators are looked upon as computer geeks.  "Its just like a video game" "It flies itself" "UAS operators arent real pilots".  You name it and I've heard it, and that attitude continuously does damage.  It damages morale as well as retention.  An MQ-1C operator, most likely a 18-24 year-old Private First Class or a Specialist is sent out to Iraq or Afghanistan,  is charged daily with flying a $10 million dollar aircraft and expected to deliver $100,000 munitions with pinpoint accuracy, and whose skill and abilities have DIRECT impact on the battlefield, receive absolutely no more pay or commendation then the cook who is counting heads in the dining facility.  Now for someone like me, who is an aviation enthusiast who would probably do this job for free if it came to it, its not THAT big of a deal.  But the rest of the kids see this and become disenfrancised and dont want to reenlist.  Army is currently offering reenlistment bonuses in excess of $45,000 to MQ-1C operators.  Almost noone is taking.


-Career Path:  For those of use who do stay in and climb the ladder, doing so is very difficult.  The field is so shorthanded that the chance of getting out of the line unit, and off the deployment trail to further develop one's resume is just about impossible.  This becomes a problem when competing for promotion to Master Sergeant (which I will be doing next year) against other operations MOSs within the Army such as Air Traffic Controlers, Aviation Administration Specialists, and so on.  Those career fields are able to get out and seek other assignments which look favorable in a promotion board packet.  I was accepted to go to the Aviation Noncomissioned Officer's Academy at Fort Rucker as an instructor last year.  Between me and the Acadamy, we both lost to branch management, and I was sent out to another line unit.

-Pilot/Operator life span:  The average "life" of a career Army aviator, in my estimation, is 26 years.  Pilots either come in directly from high school or go to Warrant Officer Canidate School or Officer Canidate School after a few years as an enlisted Soldier.  Those that stay in are in the field for an average of 26 years.  That's 26 years of building critical experience that is retained and then shared with the rest of the field.  26 is the average, with some pilots staying in as long as 30 and even 40 years before retirement.


Conversley, the average "life" of a career UAS operator is about 8 years at the most.  The high end being those at the 12-15 year mark who promote to Sergeant First Class.  Anyone reaching that rank, being Aircraft Commanders, Instructor Operators or the like, spend alot less time flying and more time attending meetings, updating excel spreasheets, and otherwise become more adminstrators than operators.  Get promoted to Master Sergeant/First Sergeant and all flying stops.  Again, thats the high end.  The low end is, of course, the horrible retention rate.  There are also those that go on to be Warrant officers at the 4-6 year mark.  Those that are accepted as a Warrent Officer so early in their career are often the best, brightest and possess the most knowlege and experience.  Warrant Officers serve as subject matter experts and are advisors to the unit commanders.  While they are still physically in the field, they take no active part in training operators.  A lot of knowledge is lost on an alarmingly regular basis, and I see units make the same mistakes, year after year.

-Post-service employment:  For manned aviators, this used to be a problem but is steadily improving with the increasing need for commercial pilots.  From some of the things I've read, airlines are starting to become more willing to take rotory pilots and give them the needed transition training.  Things are looking up for retired Army pilots.

Not so for UAS operators.  10 years ago, jobs with manufacturers like Textron or General Atomics were out there but the market was saturated and a job callback was highly unlikely unless an aplicant posesseed at least an instructor rating.  Same with instructor jobs down at Ft Huachuca.  Those gigs typically paid between $70k-90K per year.  Folks who accompanied units on deployments could make $120K easily.  The UAS industry is now seeing an influx of what I refer to as "2nd generation operators", those who are leaving the Army between 2015 and the present.  They are being offered less by these companies, are willing to work for less, and are quickly replacing the now overpaid operators.   In other non-military applications, the focus right now is sUAS and people with 1000+ hours on big, fixed wing platforms arent as compeditive as one would expect.  I predict that we are another 15-20 years from seeing larger unmanned aircraft used prominently in the NAS.  There are quite a few hurdles that the FAA needs to clear for that to happen and, well...its the FAA.



Hope all that provides a glimpse into some of the challenges that the enlisted UAS operator concept faces.  6 more years...



« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 12:53:56 AM by Sean McEntee »

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 02:04:59 AM »
Sean's observations parallel many of mine, except that I saw much more of the AF side, starting on the initial design of 3 different sensors/platforms in 1994 before Teledyne-Ryan was down-selected for what became the RQ-4. A platform that the AF manifestly did not want and was "foisted off on them" by an unaccountably successful DARPA program. There is no parity between manned systems and unmanned systems and their personnel, despite how vocal some have been about the culture changing. I assumed the Army was a bit better off than the AF, but from Sean's comments it appears that they still have their challenges as well. One topic that Sean touches on which is I believe at the heart of the civilian drone influx is the short "life expectancy," really the sustained interest in the underlying aircraft technology for guys that are now going nuts over it. For the hobbiests, it is a tech rage; as a job--without say, Sean's underlying love of aviation--it is going to get old fast. Then what?

If they can figure out a way to allow anyone to generate/participate in immersive virtual reality at a price similar to today's drone costs, say under $2k, you are going to see something far more insidious and dangerous in my opinion. The public does not understand this yet--but the researchers have been giving warnings at the very same time they are advancing the capability....

The FAA has bigger fish to fry this week, since they saw their "inside the fence" screening fail up at SEA-TAC. But the UAS task force may work all the more diligently so they don't get pushed to the back burner.

Dave

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Drone Degree?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2018, 12:18:45 PM »
I highly recommend ---

any one interested in Current Make America Great as relates to this Drone Topic, training, employment, military capability and a lot of Military industrial complex vs Civilian needs...

Please re read a few times what Sean provided from his "inside the Army system" perspective and observations

I think Sean and I have 100 to 1 ratio of BSing about current Military (army) affairs and training, than just fun flying some cool glow airplanes

Remember the OP started this with the notion that upper level schools are offering courses of study and career paths in (specifically ) Drones ...BUT they also are more and more starting to focus on many other areas of TECHNOLOGY such as AI and Autonomous vehicles

Sean McEntee has since moved away to Ft Carson CO and I miss him dearly

Funny but being separated by nearly two decades of experience....in Army Aviation...(retired in 96 with multiple combat experiences) as we sit and BS about all things Army ...recruitment, training, discipline, advancement, promotion boards, standards, ethics, morals, leadership, transition to civilian life and potential to still be a contributor for better compensation

There just are so many parallels from my era to Sean's.....not very much has changed...we are both VOLAR soldiers and the military still must recruit from the pool of USA citizens

I think it safe to say Sean and I have different views on the Space Force...

NOT mater where you stand on a whole host of social, 1st amendment, 2nd amendment, 4th amendment, economic, foreign policy and world view subjects...the next decade is going to be much more intense and interesting than any time in American history
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV


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