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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bootlegger on October 16, 2019, 12:25:42 PM
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Looking for suggestions for a 15 engine sized model.. Thanks
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what are u going to use it for.also what 15
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Sportsman goodyear is great if you're running a BB fox 15 or the magnum/asp blue head 15's....
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Legs in Boots,
IF you are thinking of a stunty model, I'd look at the Avia 87 profile. Plans and construction article from the AMA. This was a Polish Jr. Champion model if I recall correctly, designed by Piotr Zawada. Probably was a bit distinctive in style back in the day, but most of the features turn out to be just what the experts extol today.
On the other hand, if you have a Belchfire .15, I'd put it into a pan rat, perhaps like the RAD-man was thinking? Under no circumstances should you consider a Perky, which apparently is highly addictive despite it's having been around long enough for everyone to know better.
For a sport plane, why not a Hall-Springfield Bulldog racer? Or a Gee Bee from the Florida Saint Petersberg(?) Thompson Trophy racing series?
If your engine is of the smelly diesel variety, that opens up some other good options. As long as you can come up with the fuel.
If it's going to have to be an OS .15LA, then it'd go in most anything that doesn't need a ton of power. I have one in a leisurely Sport Goodyear and everyone gets a chance to look the plane over closely as it passes by....
Ok, enough of planes that are on my build list....
Best wishes,
The Divot
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It seems that 15s, more than any other engine size, has the biggest range between "barely enough power to take the skin off your pudding" to serious zoom (like the F2D engines I was watching in 15 fast combat the weekend before last).
So you really need to say what engine you have.
(And -- how does the OS Max-III 15 compare to the 15LA?)
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I learned to fly with a Flite Streak JR. powered by a Fox 15.
How could I recommend anything else. ;D
There's one on ebay I believe?
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I built a Challenger 15 size Umland short kit for my FOX 15, it fly's great. An expert friend of mine put it through a full pattern. Good place to start.----Louie
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SHARK 15
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Magician 15, Ringmaster Jr, Sig Akromaster with extra ribs.
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My bad, I didn't say I am looking at stunt with an O S 15 size engine, please excuse me...
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Another vote for the Shark.15 or the Challenger.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Bootlegger,
Seems like this very same question pops up every so often. Above, a couple have already mentioned the Keith Sandberg designed "Challenger", the best performing .15 size stunt design you'll find. It was designed around and is a perfect match for an LA but it will be happy with any other good running .15. Plans and rib sets are available from Walter Umland here on the forum. Lots of info here...
https://stunthanger.com/smf/building-techniques/update-from-the-'aeroworks'-next-in-line-'challenger-15'/msg239657/#msg239657
https://stunthanger.com/smf/paint-and-finishing/finishing-the-challenger-15/msg240083/#msg240083
http://www.builtrightflyright.com/2019/ShortKits/challenger.15_2017.htm
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P51-15 Profile designed by Ron Burn.
Ron Burn's Profile Mustang
Fully aerobatic profile stunter with flaps is perfect for .15 glow power. Can also be built for electric power. Wing Span of 36" is easy to build as the ribs slide into leading and trailing edge slots (RSM's MIT Wing design).
The P51-15 is perfect for small field flying and if electric powered can be used in parks.
Wing Span 36"
100% Laser Cut Parts
Area 291 Sq. In.
Accurate Rib Cut Outs
Length 25-3/4" for Jig Construction
Engines .15-.20
Contest Grade Balsa
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My bad, I didn't say I am looking at stunt with an O S 15 size engine, please excuse me...
15LA? 15FP? Max III? It makes a big difference.
Brett
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https://brodak.com/catalog/product/view/id/3411/s/cub-kit/category/900/
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How bout a Jr Nobler?
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Brodak “Cub” (mini Bear) maybe?
T
(https://brodak.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/207e23213cf636ccdef205098cf3c8a3/c/u/cub_2.jpg)
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Picking up on the good Divot's smelly diesel option allows me to throw down a challenge. I've on hand a KMD 2.5 diesel that tips the scales at a porky seven ounces. Otherwise, a very neat motor and one that I'm fond of. It runs nicely on 8x4 prop and is immensely reliable.
Any suggestions? Would not have to fly the pattern, but capable of some stunty maneuvers.
Mo...
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How about the Sig Akromaster? I have one with an OS LA .15 and it flies the beginner pattern easily. They are still available and don't cost a lot...Gene
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Gene:
Thanks for the suggestion. - it sounds right to me. With the engine's weight, I might have to shorten the nose and might thus have to get creative with tank placement. But then I guess that would be true for any model this size. fortunately the KMD does have a good fuel draw.
Dave Mo...
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Many who have built and flown one seem to love the Aldrich "Peacemaker." When I finish mine, perhaps I will too.
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Serge:
Very nice looking ship there. Would its wingspan be in the neighborhood of 36 to 38 inches? If so, it might be the ticket for the KMD.
Thanks.
Dave Mo...
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(https://outerzone.co.uk/images/_thumbs/plans/1633.jpg)
You can do it at 150 % for a 40 . 54 span . :-X Spans 36 but if you dont cut the ends of 36 in wood , its longer .
'flaps ' need to have grain parralel to T E & but join securely , through a slot thru the fuselage .
AND L E Riblets betweeen Ea main rib arnt a bad idea , at all ..
Hold it on the ground , outer tip & tail on grond , release , and shes off . Really need to be 12.5 to 14.5 Oz . Old OS max 20s , the baffle piston ones ,
will tow it on .012 @ 60 ft, on a calm day .
Combat Here , you can do them with say 4 ribs Ea side , and a 5 mm sq. T E , outline standard , for classic. legal . Helps the weight trip too .
with only twelve pieces to the wing .
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This looks like a good ship , by the real Mc Coy , too .
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/omtlaz1Bj-o/maxresdefault.jpg)
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Matt,
I'm lost. You show the Peacemaker plans...but the red plane doesn't look like the Peacemaker.
What is it?
TIA
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It's Purty, that's what it is.
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Matt’s picture looks something like a mini Gieseke Nobler to me, even down to the paint scheme. That said, the vertical stabilizer/rudder is pulled back from the horizontal stabilizer/elevators by some margin. Still have not heard about how the Brodak Cub performs,..I guess I'll have to build one of my kits! Although much maligned (read up on the yearly Fox 15 Hurl event) growing up some of us had great fun with the Fox. 15 slant plug and a the Jr. Ringmaster, should a profile fuselage be more to the OP's liking.
T.
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You're correct Tony, that is the Brodak Cub. Gieskes (sp) .15 size Nobler. I've been told it's a very good performer, and a worthy kit to build.
John
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Mr..Tony,
Your statement leads me to believe you multiples of this Cub. Am I correct? Any chance you may want to trade one?
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Is the red plane a Musciano Challenger?
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Picking up on the good Divot's smelly diesel option allows me to throw down a challenge. I've on hand a KMD 2.5 diesel that tips the scales at a porky seven ounces. Otherwise, a very neat motor and one that I'm fond of. It runs nicely on 8x4 prop and is immensely reliable.
Any suggestions? Would not have to fly the pattern, but capable of some stunty maneuvers.
Mo...
Hi Dave, If you build the full size Flitestreak as light as you can, That KMD 2.5cc will fly it beautifully.
The KMD powered F/S will fly the pattern, but I will suggest you use 55'-57'x .015" lines. Also, the KMD
will fly very well with an 8"x6'" prop, or to slow the lap time down, you can use a 9"x6".
Do not lengthen the tail moment nor change the stab/elevator size. It will fly great as designed. Between
Barry Baxter, Dennis Lien and myself, we've built and flown at least five F/S's and powered them with
2.49cc diesel engines. Dennis Lien even swapped out a .15 diesel engine and flew his F/S with an MVVS
junior 2.0cc diesel engine.
Perhaps some of the Forum members will remember that the earlier Top Flite F/S kits recommended using
a .15 cu" engine for a "Perfect" stunt trainer. I also wonder if Aldrich meant using a Torp .15 or an Oliver Mk III diesel. ???
Best of luck, Tony G H^^
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Matt,
I'm lost. You show the Peacemaker plans...but the red plane doesn't look like the Peacemaker.
What is it?
TIA
Brodak “Cub” (mini Bear)
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Mr..Tony,
Your statement leads me to believe you multiples of this Cub. Am I correct? Any chance you may want to trade one?
Not really looking to give up one Jim, sorry.
T
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Is the red plane a Musciano Challenger?
The Black Hawk Models repop of the Musciano Challenger pictured below. Straight leading edge seems to indicate that Matt's pictured airframe is not a Challenger..as far as I can tell. His leading edge looks to have a slight taper to me.
T.
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Larry Scarinzi's Lil Dynamite would be my choice. I built two of them over the years and intend to build one more. Construction is a little different but straightforward. It's a cute design and flys well. I had the OS MKII in mine, which was lots of power.
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Larry Scarinzi's Lil Dynamite would be my choice. I built two of them over the years and intend to build one more. Construction is a little different but straightforward. It's a cute design and flys well. I had the OS MKII in mine, which was lots of power.
https://freercplans.com/plan-lil-dynamite-1333.htm
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Matt and Tony:
You've both got me jazzed about building the Peacemaker / KMD combo!
Matt: Maybe I'm all wet here and you're all dry there, but I'm all cornfused looking at the 1958 Aeromodeller article you pulled the plans from. No mention of wingspan in the 3-page article. Ruler to screen gives me a tip-to-tip wingspan of 44" (giver take a mile). I like your 36" much better, yet the article does mention 2.5 to 3.5 cc miils. What think ye - should I just scale the PDF down to 36" and build from that for the KMD 2.5? Or go with the 44" and the KMD?
Tony: I hit the jackpot with your suggestions and enthusiasm for the project. Very welcome advice, line lengths and all; much obliged. Regarding props, it's nice to know that there is some flexibility there.
Tony again: Is the context for your recommendations based on a 44" wing-span model or something smaller? Your suggestion to build light seems to imply the 44 inches.
Thanks!
Dave Mo...
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Unless you really want to build an existing design, you can do a lot with a simple basic layout.
About 1973, I built, er, bashed one of Top Flite's Combat Cats (two Flite Streak wings in a kit meant for knocking out a pair of combat models.) The 'bash' used Flite Streak dimensions and areas, but as a full fuselage type inspired by Gene Shaffer's Stunt Machine. Twin squarish fins, etc. Power: inverted OS 15 Max III.
Pretty light, it flew very nicely on 52.5 lines, and didn't mind about moderate wind. Simple solution, but it worked. Flew it at a Lake Charles (I think) NATS just for grins. Nothing to boast of, but did twang the lines on a passing seagull. A few feathers and maybe a drop of blood, but it kept going. A moment of concern... FUN plane and much more capable than I was at the time. Newer OS 15's should do as well on a light, Flite Streak-size model.
\LOU
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Another vote for the Shark 15. But if you want a full fuse, the original Tom Tom is a good flier with a .15.
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Yep , Tonys post got me digging out BRODAK CUB , Bob Gieske design . for the wish list . place number 254 . :-X looks a nice plane .
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Dave , the PEACEMAKER is one Adrich did for the poms . ( Really just a curvey flight streak , perhaps . ) & someone even did a little version- simpler )
(http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/user_files/20229.jpg)
This is that drg. at EXACTLY 150 % , its like 47 3/4 o.a. on the spars . call it 48 plus six for the tips , so 54 inch . A bit hot with a Fox 59 on 60s ,
good for a ball race 40 Id Think , like a Olde OS Max baffle piston thing etc, or a S Tigre 21/40 , 46 . FP 35 - 40 , LA 40 - 46 etc etc . .
(http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/user_files/20306.jpg)
I think the plans downloadable on Hippocket , aerofred , or the other one . Think at the top left of the Drg. theres the span . 36 or 36 1/2 inch .
Theres a lengthy thread on Barton M F C forum on these .
http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3613&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=c7e81a358c09e671ee613970e22288b0
( I see there I did the ribs 3/16 deeper , 3/32 a side , to go OVER the spar , so no ridge in the covering . ( doubled white tissue - no paint ) ).
Heres a FREE PLAN Download , https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=1633
& the ' mini ' 1.5 cc one , tho Id just scale it , if I did .
(https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTg4WDgwMA==/z/iKIAAOSw0GJZmFyZ/$_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007)
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A bloke Greg ( greggles on Barton ) , from the Doonside club , did a ' 21st centurie ' one . theres a thread there somewhere .
his was a something wing , on peacemaker fuse . But ALL the Classic Combat Aus. & U.K. tend to go for the naff all Structure .
Thus:
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(http://www.controllineplans.com/Images/Jaguarbook.jpg)
The WING , built thus , is LEGAL for CLASSIC COMBAT , here in australia , and in the U.K. , IF you go within 3/16 of the std outline .
(http://www.wcflyers.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1332&g2_serialNumber=2)
Gregs used a 7/8 x 7/8 leading edge , but a preformed or a 1 in Sq, with 3/16 pine T.E. would do . Covered with that clear iron on
plastic for BOOKS from the newsagents etc. Heat Shrink , tough as old boots and more inedable . Just ask the fish & birds . S?P
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Short fred on a CUB , here : https://vcconline.forumeiros.com/t1342-chegou-o-novo-kit-cub-da-brodak
(https://2img.net/h/i71.photobucket.com/albums/i145/martinq2/cub/DSC04382_edited_zpsf8dac7fd.jpg)
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:P
Matt: Maybe I'm all wet here and you're all dry there, but I'm all cornfused looking at the 1958 Aeromodeller article you pulled the plans from. No mention of wingspan in the 3-page article. Ruler to screen gives me a tip-to-tip wingspan of 44" (giver take a mile). I like your 36" much better, yet the article does mention 2.5 to 3.5 cc miils. What think ye - should I just scale the PDF down to 36" and build from that for the KMD 2.5? Or go with the 44" and the KMD?
Lots of Aeromodeler plans for cheap nasty 1.5 & ' big ' 2.5 cc diesels . Half of all there pre 70s stuff , at least .
the Span is at top left above the aeromudler logo box .
A few PEACEMAKER ( the Pommy Version ) TRICKS .
1/. USE RIBLETS , or the cover sags awful like there .
2/. If flying in gusty air , say 3/16 more elevator chord . You can STALL a Peacemaker , the maybe 1/4 extra chord will help it turn BEFOR Terra Firma .
( The big one was toey as heck , with the extra 1/4 . BUT one fine day , blowing a gale , after id removed the extra 1/4 ,
wigover , aproaching the top I thought maybe Id better hit UP Early , Like NOW .
about halfway down , still on the perfect line , I switched to Full Down , whilst I felt the GRAB as I did So . There was no ' second grab ' ( of the elevator Vs Atmosphere .
Every Rib was in three pieces. one way or another . A Entire container of pins required for reassembly . Thus ; those in the know & the wind widen chord.)
3/. Probably a A C L N mentioned useing the 36 in lengths UNCUT artical , which gives around 40 inch span , o.a. . ( a extra rib bay per plan , ea. side . )
4/. ditto . Thicken the airfoil a touch .Rounder L E .
Big One I used plus 3/16 , so 3/32 over the 1/4 Sq Spuce spaRS - WITH SHEAR WEB . this got covering un ridged at the spar .
5/. Kiwi' recon fly better with the rounded L.E. with the riblets , 1 or 2 ea side, ea bay . 1/4 x 1/16 - plank sand to match ribs .
mightve used two a bay ea side on the big one . But thatll look arty & give a smooth consistant airfoil .
Look at any without them , basically diamond airfoil as the covering goes straight , LE to Spar .
That AND the Elevator would be a good combination . The Fuse Sides you get two from a 36 x 3 in sheet , sans canopy . rear to rear .
maybe throw the hinge / moment 1/2 inch further aft , with this. Particularly with the rear Induction K M D Id Think . Even one inch .
1/2 Nose Doubler to spar , as per the Fox 59 sucker there . ( that had a 3/4 shaft. extn. . Id not use that .
Nose Heavy with the big elevator . FINE . No trouble when your 15 , octagonal loops and all . But tests your nerves & steel , if you not with it ,
you wont be . No wheres that aeoplane ? . Sightly touchy , as a understement , may be aplicable . BUT Itll get it to turn or pull up the nose ,
The Wheels good to absorb whoopsie's .
Foam Wing cardborad covered Yin Yan silver swallow at 20 to 22 1/2 Oz , whipped hard for three to five laps , may loop .
18.5 Os with POWERE ( OS Max 20 on No Noitro ) Fully aerobatic if youre carefull ,
but stall , fall off the air , etc . If overcontroled or momentum not maintained .
16.5 Oz , good . Will Fly on 60 ft lines, in calm air , can still be overcontrolled & fall off air . will survive a mild glancing blow.
will teach you energy management & control ' appropriatenous ' etc
14.5 Oz. Bleedy Good , Will survive a glancing blow.
12.5 Oz O A . Bleedy Marvelous .fly like a dream , almost flawless. Will survive a good landing.
10 .5 Oz O.A. see below . !
Hence the recomendation for the four ribs a side , pine t e & Plastic as per FAI Combat , for vigourous useage .
:P
Old OS max 20's were around 5 Oz all up . and BENT Needleva;ves , snapped spraybars , on inverted hits .
The Yin Yan , actually - you whipped three laps , harder for two trying to get altitude , whipped and dived for speed - and tryed a loop .
Wandered to the edge of the field - 45 degree drop off to lower field . Below level loop would pull like blazes , but might not manadge to get back up to level hight again , on a hot day . This is at 20 Oz plus . external controls . Overweight barge .
(http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/files/peacemaker_enya19_457.jpg)
Heres a picture of a fairly tidy one , flogged from Barton .
imperitive the flap / T E Things go thru fuse & butt together , well adhered . As wings tend to fall off in ABRUPT NOSE DOWN ARRIVAL .
Told a Clear plastic one didnt .
The 10 piece wing , theres a shallow ' V ' ee at the T E center , bound & gled . So wings almost triangulation. Stress ways . On deceleration .
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Serge:
Very nice looking ship there. Would its wingspan be in the neighborhood of 36 to 38 inches? If so, it might be the ticket for the KMD.
Thanks.
Dave Mo...
Dave - 'sorry to be so late in responding. My plans and plane have a 36.5" span for an area of about 294 in2. My stationary flaps are glued on with a jig and covered with silk span anchored with a very thin layer of epoxy to avoid warps from shrinking dope or water. Rather than separate flaps, they are made from one piece of balsa and inserted with the wing through a fuselage slot to keep them chord-wise straight. The technique worked well, and I can slide the wing in with a clearance never exceeding .02". I have to get it finished!
Oh, yeah,...mine is built from a Mike Griffin kit, which jigs the wing without the two spars. Since the original has those spars, and the original flight characteristics depend on them, I added them anyway. I also made a new fuselage, grooved for the fin so that it was less liable to break off in a flipped landing. I also put the bellcrank and push rod on the outer side of the fuselage for weight bias. With the jigging technique and the spars, mine will be a bit heavy.
SK
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Matt and Tony:
You've both got me jazzed about building the Peacemaker / KMD combo!
Matt: Maybe I'm all wet here and you're all dry there, but I'm all cornfused looking at the 1958 Aeromodeller article you pulled the plans from. No mention of wingspan in the 3-page article. Ruler to screen gives me a tip-to-tip wingspan of 44" (giver take a mile). I like your 36" much better, yet the article does mention 2.5 to 3.5 cc miils. What think ye - should I just scale the PDF down to 36" and build from that for the KMD 2.5? Or go with the 44" and the KMD?
Tony: I hit the jackpot with your suggestions and enthusiasm for the project. Very welcome advice, line lengths and all; much obliged. Regarding props, it's nice to know that there is some flexibility there.
Tony again: Is the context for your recommendations based on a 44" wing-span model or something smaller? Your suggestion to build light seems to imply the 44 inches.
Thanks!
Dave Mo...
Hi Dave, I am suggesting that you build the Aldrich/ Flite Streak kit design. It has a 42" wing span,
and has 390 sq" wing area. The Aldrich English Combat based Peacemaker was for .15-.19 cu" engines.
It has 90 sq"s less wing area. That Peacemaker was designed for the higher speed of Combat flying using 52' lines.
We later learned that the earlier Combat concept to design for speed; gave way to the idea that it was better
to follow your adversary, than to outrun them.
This resulted in larger wing area designs yielding lighter wing loadings.
You will find the original F/S design, if built light and flown with a CG that the results in a very tight turning model
will still give a stable and predictable flight behavior.
I'm not sure how thirsty your KMD is, so you may have to experiment with tank volume. Since I'm assuming that
you want a Sport flying model, you could start with a 1.75oz or 2.0oz capacity fuel tank. The KMD rear intake will
cut into fuel tank length, so I also suggest you use the "Profile" tank design.
My bottom line is to recommend building the 42" span/390 sq" F/S instead of the 300 sq" Peacemaker.
Both designs will be lots of fun to fly; but the F/S will be a better flying model. What you have is a Win-Win choice.
Best of luck, Tony G. ;D
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Very nice, Serge .
Just rememberinged , in N Z there was a spindle moulded leading edge available , that matched the width & depth of the peacemaker rib leading edge ' V ' ,
a bit pricey , but had the ' appropriate ' section .
Think moulded l e's wernt a ' off the shelf ' item , in the U.K. , untill the 70's .Explains why two bits of 3/16th shown on the drg .
Wondering what the set up there was on the Flyte Streak 15 .
An inboard tank may work well with the K M D ,
you set them so in the middle of the overheads is not dry . Richens lower , so a good ' stunt ' run . On glows at least.
Most people would use a 4 inch pitch prop , to keep it around 3.5 Sec. per lap.( the slow combat speed limit ) Going to 55 or 60 foot on the lines ,
gets a bit more room to open out the manouvres , rather than getting to excited about things .
Wonder who'll build the 1.000.000 th PEACEMAKER . ;D VD~