"Would you fly Stunt 25?" Event survey

[Clint Ormosen]

Here on the West coast, there was a organization called Western Associated Modelers (WAM). At most WAM contests, You could enter stunt in "1/2A" (to .050), "A" (to .20) , or "B/C" (.201 and up) engine classes. I see several contests throughout the country that have an event for 1/2A, but A class stunt is all but gone. Some guys took "A" stunt very seriously and, from what I understand, it could be very competitive. I heard Banshees with Veco .19's were all the rage. I flew WAM in the early 90's and entered "A" a few times, but the organization disbanded.

So, would anyone be even remotely interested in reviving "A" class stunt. I realize that the .25 engine has displaced most .19's, so maybe make a class for .25 max disp. There are a lot of good engines choices to use. OS FP 20/25, OS LA 25, Brodak 25, Veco 19BB, and Fox 19/25BB engines come quickly to mind.

Suggested rules? Not too many. I would vote for no pipes (just to keep it a cheap/simple event). Any airplane you want. Any fuel you want. Any line length you want. No appearance points might speed things up, plus ARF's could be used without being handicapped a few points. (one of the few times you'll ever hear me say no appearance points.)
 Any suggestions or comments are more than welcome. Well, within reason.


Oh BTW, I'm calling for the immediate disqualification of Brett's Skyray/20FP. He's had WAY too much time to develop it.

[M Spencer]

Put 10 Gallons ( Imperial ones , plus another for luck ) through a FSR 25 clone in a 50 in 47 Oz Nobler size thing. often on 55 ft of .018 7 strand .
Makes you work for youre keep to a degree . Actually being a bit underpowered makes life intresting and teaches you a few things , like inertia
manadgement. Over 18 knots I fitted a 9 x 6 , mustve kept me on my toes , as I never broke that prop. Despite about two dozen miss landings,

Had it drag 67 ft of .016 solids once . Anyway , the old ' whip assist and SIXTIES flying style ( 35s ) was a lark , and might be worth encourageing .

Throwing in some points / votes , for ' spectacular & ' Tries Hard '  could get a bit of intrest , Have a one ballon burst bit too  .

Should be ' interesting ' . 

[PerttiMe]

With electric being the "wave of the future", I'd really prefer to see some other limit than engine displacement.

Wing span is easy to measure but would it work? Span and weight?

(realistically, I'm not coming to USA to fly anytime soon. but I like the idea of using smaller designs)

[Dennis Adamisin]

With electric being the "wave of the future", I'd really prefer to see some other limit than engine displacement.

Wing span is easy to measure but would it work? Span and weight?

(realistically, I'm not coming to USA to fly anytime soon. but I like the idea of using smaller designs)

Best way I have seen to put electrics & IC on a level field is to limit prop size - I suggest a 9" 2-blade prop & .015x60' lines.

EDIT: Forgot to say NICE idea Clint.  I really like the idea of a smaller "tweener" size class.

[David M Johnson]

Good idea!  I just am glad I'll be able to fit my plane in my car again. Its tough to fit a Sig Chipmunk in a 2 door Cavalier.  Would these be full fuselage or can they be profile designs?
David Johnson

[john e. holliday]

I am afraid it would go the way of P-40 Stunt.  Locally I would say do what you want, but Nationally I think we have way too many stunt events.  My opinion.

[Dennis Moritz]

Why would this be of interest? Especially if the norm would be planes usually flown by a 40. I dig small planes, such as jr Streaks. Very different flight characteristics from a typical 40 bird. That is a different experience.

[Randy Powell]

Sounds like what we did with profile stunt. Max engine is a .46 (was 40 but we wanted to accommodate the LA46), there is a Sportsman class and an Expert class (to keep experts from swooping in and taking over). No appearance point and minimal rules around planes. It's been very popular.

[Balsa Butcher]

I'd support it - prefer a token (10 maybe) appearance points to encourage new builds, creativity, and give the ARF Flite Streak fliers something to aspire to. A plane that comes to mind is Alan Brickhaus' "Scepter 500" which was originally designed for a Fox 35.  Why not allow Fox 35's in the class? Comparable power to a 25 FP but twice the headaches...what's not to like. 

[John Miller]

I would support such an event. Pete makes a good point of having minimal, creativity points, to encourage new designs, and scale downs. Limiting the prop to perhaps a 9X6 max dia. and pitch, will allow both IE, and E power to compete. Though I would welcome ARF's and ARC's, I would like to see more than those show up. That's why the minimal creativity points.

[Balsa Butcher]

I'm not sure if electrics were being considered for this event.  I see it as more of a local, engine specific event like NW Sport 40 Carrier. 

[Clint Ormosen]

With electric being the "wave of the future", I'd really prefer to see some other limit than engine displacement.

Wing span is easy to measure but would it work? Span and weight?

(realistically, I'm not coming to USA to fly anytime soon. but I like the idea of using smaller designs)

Not being too interested in electrics myself, I hadn't considered this. I have no idea how to size electric motors so that they would be equal to a .25 engine.

I am afraid it would go the way of P-40 Stunt.  Locally I would say do what you want, but Nationally I think we have way too many stunt events.  My opinion.

Doc, this would be a "local contest" type of event. I'm in agreement with you about the number of events nationally.

I'd support it - prefer a token (10 maybe) appearance points to encourage new builds, creativity, and give the ARF Flite Streak fliers something to aspire to. A plane that comes to mind is Alan Brickhaus' "Scepter 500" which was originally designed for a Fox 35.  Why not allow Fox 35's in the class? Comparable power to a 25 FP but twice the headaches...what's not to like. 

I could go for a few points tossed out there for creativity. It might get a few original airplanes built. But let's keep the Fox .35's out of it.

I'm not sure if electrics were being considered for this event.  I see it as more of a local, engine specific event like NW Sport 40 Carrier. 

Exactly!

.25 stunt with all CLPA rules and AMA CL general rules.  Only difference is the engine size. Flite Streaks, light Ringmsters, Barnstomers, many early profiles, lots  of planes for this "catagory" and to what end?  Just for the heck of it?

Yes Ty. Just for the heck of it.

[Brett Buck]

.25 stunt with all CLPA rules and AMA CL general rules.  Only difference is the engine size. Flite Streaks, light Ringmsters, Barnstomers, many early profiles, lots  of planes for this "catagory" and to what end?  Just for the heck of it?

     Hmmm, Ted has been threatening to put a 25VF in his Chizler, and I would be tempted to put together a 51 Nobler and a 25FP. Almost any 35-sized classic plane would fly better with a current 25 that it did back in the day.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

     Hmmm, Ted has been threatening to put a 25VF in his Chizler, and I would be tempted to put together a 51 Nobler and a 25FP. Almost any 35-sized classic plane would fly better with a current 25 that it did back in the day.

    Brett

That's the spirit! However, I'm sure Ted would want to pipe the VF and I'd like to see this as a pipeless event. But I know for a fact that an ARF Nobler flies ok with an LA 25.

[Joseph Lijoi]

Its an interesting concept, but what was the intent of the original WAM classes based on displacement?  Times have really changed when it comes to HP.  I would think that the limit would be on wing area or something like that.  I would bet there are 25's out there that produce more HP than an ST 46, even without a pipe. 

As for Barnstormers, Ringmasters etc. they are covered in other events.  The problem is when a limit is introduced people try to change the limit.  As someone mentioned it could go the way of the P-40 event.

Are we trying to get more flyers or just have another event for people who already fly?

My flying buddy and I fly in a very public place.  People watch and are interested and ask questions.  There seems to be a some interest.

When the Nobler ARF came out a lot of people were talking a one design contest.  But the idea never caught on.  This and one or two available 25's and electric maybe.

I used to race slot cars.  Not those Scale ones that are akin to model trains but ones on commercial tracks.  155' road courses where you pay for track time.  Big Jim Greenaway was an east coast legend in this kind of slot car racing.

At one time you had to build these things out of sheet brass and wire.  The interest waned and then Parma came out with a stamped steel 2 piece chassis called the flexi car for 15 bucks.  They handled really well.  The flexi car saved the hobby and the flexi car class was born with appropriate limits to motors.  There were tricks to setting these things up and people would buy 10 sealed motors to cherry pick but it was fun.

The irony is that the most popular form of this kind of racing is now Retro Slot.  What is Retro Slot?  It is where you build your own chassis out of, you guessed it, sheet brass and wire.

Go figure.

So a limited discplacement is a good idea.  But I would couple that with a limit of an appropriate make of engine IC or electric or IC only, and a good design that flys well that most people would be happy with like an ARF Nobler.  Sure, people would rework 25 LA's but the guy with the stock motor can still have fun.  This would get some guys who used to fly or who are flying RC back in and eventually they would be building again too.


 

 

[Clint Ormosen]

Good post, Joseph. Definitely one of the big problems of this event is that the modern IC .25 makes as much (and in most cases more) power than older .35's make. If we dropped the displacement down to .20, it would become the "FP20" event with maybe a Veco .19 or two thrown in. I guess we could make it .19's and down or just non-schnerle (sp) motors up to .25. but I doubt anyone one want to fly them.
 It would be very difficult to limit the sq.in. of the plane because it's too hard to check at a contest. I still think that the original idea of a no-pipe, IC engine to .25 would still be fun to fly. Maybe the added HP of some of these newer engines could inspire some cool designs.

The reason for all this is that I just received my CD license from the AMA and was thinking of putting on a contest here in NorCal. I was going to keep it simple to start with just PA classes, but I thought a "gimmick" event that didn't take too much time out of the day would be a cool addition. That's why no AP's. Just weigh it and fly it.

As an afterthought: I think that breaking this into sorta skill classes, like Sportsman/Compeditor might get more people to enter.

[Balsa Butcher]

How 'bout Classic with skill classes as the primary event? That concept is long overdue IMHO. 

[Clint Ormosen]

How 'bout Classic with skill classes as the primary event? That concept is long overdue IMHO.  

I updated the bottom of my last post, Pete. But I like your idea too.

You need to get your CD license too so you can do this with me.

[Clint Ormosen]

Good idea!  I just am glad I'll be able to fit my plane in my car again. Its tough to fit a Sig Chipmunk in a 2 door Cavalier.  Would these be full fuselage or can they be profile designs?
David Johnson

Sorry, David. I missed your question.

ANY airplane! Profile, full fuse, combat, whatever.

[BYU]

I am in, up to 25, no pipes any designs. Would like to use a 10x4 prop if possible, so not that happy about the 9 inch limit.

Very cool idea. When is the first contest?

[Brett Buck]

As for Barnstormers, Ringmasters etc. they are covered in other events.  The problem is when a limit is introduced people try to change the limit.  As someone mentioned it could go the way of the P-40 event.

     Other than it morphing into "Profile" without the 40, what happened to it?  The best stunt motor of all time is a 40, and a 40 might as well be no limit at all, since you can fly just about any size plane with it. It's almost the same with a 25 - it's not much of a limit, in and of itself.

    If what we want is a simple event, exclude the experts. That's sort of what I was implying above - the more limits you put on the event, the more the experts will dominate it. That's pretty much what happened in WAM engine classes for a while, although that's probably not what killed it.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

I am in, up to 25, no pipes any designs. Would like to use a 10x4 prop if possible, so not that happy about the 9 inch limit.

Very cool idea. When is the first contest?

Dunno. We're very early in the planning stage. I'm thinking April or May. There seem to be plenty of late season contests around here already. But now I'm counting on you to enter "Stunt .25" (if it happens).

[Brett Buck]

Oh BTW, I'm calling for the immediate disqualification of Brett's Skyray/20FP. He's had WAY too much time to develop it.

   It also may be relevant that it still holds the WAM A Stunt High Score record, at least until there's a WAM secretary to disallow it  - since it was really a 21. And I suspect the next time it has even a hard landing it the Monokote will shatter into dust. It's getting extremely brittle from UV exposure.

     Brett

p.s. I guess I never answered the original question- I probably *wouldn't* fly Stunt 25, unless I was requested to for promotional purposes. Because I think too many experts infesting the event will defeat any possible purpose it might have.

[Clint Ormosen]

    Other than it morphing into "Profile" without the 40, what happened to it?  The best stunt motor of all time is a 40, and a 40 might as well be no limit at all, since you can fly just about any size plane with it. It's almost the same with a 25 - it's not much of a limit, in and of itself.

    If what we want is a simple event, exclude the experts. That's sort of what I was implying above - the more limits you put on the event, the more the experts will dominate it. That's pretty much what happened in WAM engine classes for a while, although that's probably not what killed it.

    Brett

Some truth here. Agreed, the .40 will fly darned near anything. However, the .25 will not. Good luck getting a Sig Chipmunk through the pattern on a muffled .25. Oh sure, I suppose it can be done, but I doubt there would be a long line of pilots waiting to try it. I foresee the list of planes to be more like Skyrays, Flight Streaks, Super Clowns, Tomahawks, Shoestrings, Twisters, ect.
 What if we limit the prop to 9"? Would it make a difference? I don't want too many limits or restrictions on this. That kills it.
 I wouldn't want to see the Experts excluded either. That's why I suggested split skill classes. As an Advanced pilot, I'd fly the competitor class (I don't mind getting my butt kicked). But anyone could sign up for whatever they felt comfortable with.

[Clint Ormosen]

  It also may be relevant that it still holds the WAM A Stunt High Score record, at least until there's a WAM secretary to disallow it  - since it was really a 21. And I suspect the next time it has even a hard landing it the Monokote will shatter into dust. It's getting extremely brittle from UV exposure.

     Brett

p.s. I guess I never answered the original question- I probably *wouldn't* fly Stunt 25, unless I was requested to for promotional purposes. Because I think too many experts infesting the event will defeat any possible purpose it might have.

I honestly thought the WAM record was held by Bill Howe's Bearcat. Oops!

Brett, I'd want you enter just to get more pilots interested. We know we can't beat you, but you could sandbag a little.

[Brett Buck]

Some truth here. Agreed, the .40 will fly darned near anything. However, the .25 will not. Good luck getting a Sig Chipmunk through the pattern on a muffled .25. Oh sure, I suppose it can be done, but I doubt there would be a long line of pilots waiting to try it.

  It wouldn't be optimal but it would sure be a lot better than the Fox 35 version, and lots of people used to do that.

    Brett

[PerttiMe]

Sooo, is the local kid whose mother doesn't allow smelly things in the house and is scared of IC engines anyway out? He could probably plug together an electric like he does for his R/C parkflyer...

[Brett Buck]

Sooo, is the local kid whose mother doesn't allow smelly things in the house and is scared of IC engines anyway out? He could probably plug together an electric like he does for his R/C parkflyer...

   Out of a 25-sized IC engine event?  I would suppose so. Maybe someone with an apparent passion on the topic should propose a different event where electric motors are used.

    Brett

[jim gilmore]

I do not fly competetalivy but I do  think a change in how planes are sized would be beneficil.
I personally think that the 1.2A pathfinder really is not a 1/2 A
It is a 1/2A flown on a very strong 1/2A...
Get 1/2A down to 35" max ws.
Get A class to      48" max
and bc is everything else...

[Clint Ormosen]

I do not fly competetalivy but I do  think a change in how planes are sized would be beneficil.
I personally think that the 1.2A pathfinder really is not a 1/2 A
It is a 1/2A flown on a very strong 1/2A...
Get 1/2A down to 35" max ws.
Get A class to      48" max
and bc is everything else...

That's an idea too, Jim. However, I personally don't enjoy fussing with 1/2A engines. So I wouldn't propose anything like that.

[Clint Ormosen]

Sooo, is the local kid whose mother doesn't allow smelly things in the house and is scared of IC engines anyway out?.

I guess so. This was supposed to be somewhat nostalgic and just for (up to) .25 IC motors. I don't have a thing against electrics, but they're not for this event.

[YakNine]

Just call it Foxberg Stunt and allow the planes and engines allowed at Brodaks give the racers something else to use their planes for. T.J.

[Sean McEntee]

      Honestly, I think that we are approaching the problem of having too many events.  I went down to the WSKI contest in August and the Broken Arrow in September.  I flew OTS, Profile, flew classic at the former contest and judged at the latter.  Both contests were SUPER BUSY!  Between those 2 days I sat down once.  Was exhausted at the end of both days...and im 28 and I max my PT test!

      So if you add another event, there are issues.  First is manpower--finding 2 more warm bodies to judge.  Next is entries.  It would be almost impossible to fly all 4 events, so people will start picking and choosing 2-3 events to fly.  Folks already complain about dwindling contest attendance, so if you factor the lack of entries with the idea that not everyone will fly every event, you will see a few events with only 1-2 entries.  Also, those 1-2 missing entries cost the club money for plaques/tropies that arent recouped in entry fee.

      If the times were different, and you were pulling 20-30 entries per event, forcing people to pick an event or two would make sense.  Right now, lets just get people to enter the events we have.

[Bill Little]

Hi Clint,

Wonderful idea, but IMHO, the .25 is too big.  I have seen an ARF Nobler place second in Expert (a pretty decent class at Huntersville w/NATS top 5 pilots).  Also remember a very good Dolphin flying on a Veco .19BB.

There are PLENTY of .19s (all makes) and .15s out there, the VECO .19BB is still being made and about the same cost as the .25LA.  And .15s (especially the FP and LA) are a dime a dozen it seems.  A built up Peacemaker on an OS .15FP or LA could be killer!  And all the old 48"-50"/Fox .35 size Classic stunters would fly well on a Veco .19BB (how about a Still Stuka?) as long as they weren't made out of lead.

As has been said, the OS .25FP or LA puts out a lot more usable power than many of the old cross flow .35s.  Wouldn't doubt that the Brodak does also, I have just never had one.

For one I love the idea, but it seems, to me, to be too large an engine for the engines we have today, so I would limit the engine to .19 like it was.

Just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation.......
Big Bear

[Dennis Moritz]

How about a non-flap event. Perhaps restricted to specific designs. Flite Streak, Ringmaster, Skyray, Short wing Magician. Simple planes. Engine restriction to .25, since they're common. A Foxberg styled stunt event. No fuss, no muss, stunt. 1-10 appearance points might be nice. Criteria: fit, finish and zooty.

I already built my entry. And it's a cheater.

[Brett Buck]

     Honestly, I think that we are approaching the problem of having too many events.

   It has already gotten to that point. That's the big issue. There's already no practical way to hold all 7 at a 2-day local contest.

    Brett

[Dennis Moritz]

Guess I'm simply describing Profile Stunt with smaller engines. And. No flaps. Perhaps we could run a no-flap profile 25 integrated into straight profile. Same as Nostalgia is run with Classic. The no flap planes are sport planes by and large. Most of us have 2 or 3 or more in various levels of decay. Nice thing is they are so familiar, we've worked with their quirks for years. High on the fun quotient. Least effected by weird winds. Competitive profile planes with flaps usually means an ARF or ARC Brodak P40. At least on the East Coast. Or a Cardinal. Pathfinder. A competitive stunt war wagon with a flat fues. Except if you are Dan Banjok flying a Ringmaster. Or Mike Palko doing it with an electric Clown.

[Leo Mehl]

Artic fox with Enya 25. I think n this would work.

[Tim Wescott]

To answer your original question: probably not.

I think that having skill level classes makes a lot more sense than having engine size classes.  And I don't think there's room for a full matrix of skill levels and engine displacements.

I'd much rather go to a contest where I can compete in Sportsman Profile and Intermediate Precision Aerobatics than one where I can fly my 25 powered plane against a bunch of other 25 powered planes, but I have to go head to head with guys who usually fly expert.

[Clint Ormosen]

To answer your original question: probably not.

I think that having skill level classes makes a lot more sense than having engine size classes.  And I don't think there's room for a full matrix of skill levels and engine displacements.

I'd much rather go to a contest where I can compete in Sportsman Profile and Intermediate Precision Aerobatics than one where I can fly my 25 powered plane against a bunch of other 25 powered planes, but I have to go head to head with guys who usually fly expert.

That's why I suggested a Sportsman and Compeditor class(es). Now I'm thinking "no flaps" might be something to throw in. I'm afraid of making too many rules for this, but I would like to level the Field a little. Big Iron suggested engines no bigger than 19's, but I'm afraid that will turn off too many people. Personally I'd like it better. This isn't supposed to be another profile event, so I won't limit that even though most of the entries probably would be profile.

[jim ivey]

Smaller size airplanes always seemed "mushy" to me. likr to much wing loading for the wing area. they don't seem to"fly" a good example of what I mean were the "Clowns" big ones rlew ok smaller ones would mush nearly to the ground on hard turns. not as bad as a cox plane, but like that. I'm not going to enter anything again most likely. So  I  guess my opinion dont count. jim

[Larry Fernandez]

Count me in Clint!!!!!
My weapon of choice, Still Stuka with an FP .20. A match made in stunt heaven.
I also think a light Jetco Dolphin with an FP .20 would be quite competitive
I would want to see appearance points, I need all the help I can get.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Brett Buck]

Smaller size airplanes always seemed "mushy" to me. likr to much wing loading for the wing area. they don't seem to"fly" a good example of what I mean were the "Clowns" big ones rlew ok smaller ones would mush nearly to the ground on hard turns. not as bad as a cox plane, but like that. I'm not going to enter anything again most likely. So  I  guess my opinion dont count. jim

   I think that's mostly because everybody moved on from small airplanes before they learned how to design them. Larger airplanes from the Flying Clown era mostly flew poorly, too.

    If you have 25 stunt, and someone takes it to the end of development, they will look a lot like 75% Impacts, not Flying Clowns, and I guarantee *mine* will turn. In fact, The Dirt seems to have a head start on us, and I can assure you that the Wimpact *does not* mush around in the corners.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

Count me in Clint!!!!!
My weapon of choice, Still Stuka with an FP .20. A match made in stunt heaven.
I also think a light Jetco Dolphin with an FP .20 would be quite competitive
I would want to see appearance points, I need all the help I can get.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Glad to hear that you'd be in, Larry. BUT, would you still be interested if there were no AP? How 'bout if there were no flaps allowed or at least a point deduction for having them?"

 I want this to be a simple event. As Brett stated, taken to the extreme the airplanes will become 75% Impacts! I don't want that type of model development in this event. Cheap and simple. Just another opportunity to fly at a contest. Not a pressure event.
 

[Larry Fernandez]

    If you have 25 stunt, and someone takes it to the end of development, they will look a lot like 75% Impacts, not Flying Clowns, and I guarantee *mine* will turn. In fact, The Dirt seems to have a head start on us, and I can assure you that the Wimpact *does not* mush around in the corners.

    Brett
[/quote]


HHHmmmmmm so how big would an Infinity need to be if optimized for an FP .20 ?  Say about 480 sq in ??

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Larry Fernandez]

Glad to hear that you'd be in, Larry. BUT, would you still be interested if there were no AP? How 'bout if there were no flaps allowed or at least a point deduction for having them?"

 I want this to be a simple event. As Brett stated, taken to the extreme the airplanes will become 75% Impacts! I don't want that type of model development in this event. Cheap and simple. Just another opportunity to fly at a contest. Not a pressure event.
 

Cheap and simple you say, The still Stuka was designed in 1952. Things were pretty simple back then. As far as cheap goes, how much more does it cost to add flaps to a plane??

One of the things I enjoy most about any contest, is to admire the workmanship and detail of the planes entered. Not to sound like a jackass, but I dont find myself getting jazzed over  monocoated profiles.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
 

[FLOYD CARTER]

I like small planes (not 1/2-A though).  You should consider that in many parts of the country, it is most always too windy for small planes.  (If not for the big 60 engines, I wouldn't have many flying days).

Not everyone lives in So Cal.  The wind blows most everywhere else.

F.C.

[Balsa Butcher]

Sportsman:No Flaps, Competitor:anything goes? Appearance points: Borrowed or bought RTF: 0 pts, ARF: 1-4 pts, ARC: 1-8 pts, Kit or plans: 1-10. Category declared at registration, competitors word on what is what. (just brainstorming here)

[Brett Buck]

I like small planes (not 1/2-A though).  You should consider that in many parts of the country, it is most always too windy for small planes.  (If not for the big 60 engines, I wouldn't have many flying days).

Not everyone lives in So Cal.

  Neither does Clint. And for the record some of the most difficult air we ever fly in is at Whittier Narrows.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

HHHmmmmmm so how big would an Infinity need to be if optimized for an FP .20 ?  Say about 480 sq in ??

     I would go even smaller than that, maybe 400-410. You underestimate how fat the airfoil is.

    Brett