"Would you fly Stunt 25?" Event survey

[Clint Ormosen]

Here on the West coast, there was a organization called Western Associated Modelers (WAM). At most WAM contests, You could enter stunt in "1/2A" (to .050), "A" (to .20) , or "B/C" (.201 and up) engine classes. I see several contests throughout the country that have an event for 1/2A, but A class stunt is all but gone. Some guys took "A" stunt very seriously and, from what I understand, it could be very competitive. I heard Banshees with Veco .19's were all the rage. I flew WAM in the early 90's and entered "A" a few times, but the organization disbanded.

So, would anyone be even remotely interested in reviving "A" class stunt. I realize that the .25 engine has displaced most .19's, so maybe make a class for .25 max disp. There are a lot of good engines choices to use. OS FP 20/25, OS LA 25, Brodak 25, Veco 19BB, and Fox 19/25BB engines come quickly to mind.

Suggested rules? Not too many. I would vote for no pipes (just to keep it a cheap/simple event). Any airplane you want. Any fuel you want. Any line length you want. No appearance points might speed things up, plus ARF's could be used without being handicapped a few points. (one of the few times you'll ever hear me say no appearance points.)
 Any suggestions or comments are more than welcome. Well, within reason.


Oh BTW, I'm calling for the immediate disqualification of Brett's Skyray/20FP. He's had WAY too much time to develop it.

[Air Ministry .]

Put 10 Gallons ( Imperial ones , plus another for luck ) through a FSR 25 clone in a 50 in 47 Oz Nobler size thing. often on 55 ft of .018 7 strand .
Makes you work for youre keep to a degree . Actually being a bit underpowered makes life intresting and teaches you a few things , like inertia
manadgement. Over 18 knots I fitted a 9 x 6 , mustve kept me on my toes , as I never broke that prop. Despite about two dozen miss landings,

Had it drag 67 ft of .016 solids once . Anyway , the old ' whip assist and SIXTIES flying style ( 35s ) was a lark , and might be worth encourageing .

Throwing in some points / votes , for ' spectacular & ' Tries Hard '  could get a bit of intrest , Have a one ballon burst bit too  .

Should be ' interesting ' . 

[PerttiMe]

With electric being the "wave of the future", I'd really prefer to see some other limit than engine displacement.

Wing span is easy to measure but would it work? Span and weight?

(realistically, I'm not coming to USA to fly anytime soon. but I like the idea of using smaller designs)

[Dennis Adamisin]

With electric being the "wave of the future", I'd really prefer to see some other limit than engine displacement.

Wing span is easy to measure but would it work? Span and weight?

(realistically, I'm not coming to USA to fly anytime soon. but I like the idea of using smaller designs)

Best way I have seen to put electrics & IC on a level field is to limit prop size - I suggest a 9" 2-blade prop & .015x60' lines.

EDIT: Forgot to say NICE idea Clint.  I really like the idea of a smaller "tweener" size class.

[David M Johnson]

Good idea!  I just am glad I'll be able to fit my plane in my car again. Its tough to fit a Sig Chipmunk in a 2 door Cavalier.  Would these be full fuselage or can they be profile designs?
David Johnson

[john e. holliday]

I am afraid it would go the way of P-40 Stunt.  Locally I would say do what you want, but Nationally I think we have way too many stunt events.  My opinion.

[Dennis Moritz]

Why would this be of interest? Especially if the norm would be planes usually flown by a 40. I dig small planes, such as jr Streaks. Very different flight characteristics from a typical 40 bird. That is a different experience.

[Randy Powell]

Sounds like what we did with profile stunt. Max engine is a .46 (was 40 but we wanted to accommodate the LA46), there is a Sportsman class and an Expert class (to keep experts from swooping in and taking over). No appearance point and minimal rules around planes. It's been very popular.

[Balsa Butcher]

I'd support it - prefer a token (10 maybe) appearance points to encourage new builds, creativity, and give the ARF Flite Streak fliers something to aspire to. A plane that comes to mind is Alan Brickhaus' "Scepter 500" which was originally designed for a Fox 35.  Why not allow Fox 35's in the class? Comparable power to a 25 FP but twice the headaches...what's not to like. 

[John Miller]

I would support such an event. Pete makes a good point of having minimal, creativity points, to encourage new designs, and scale downs. Limiting the prop to perhaps a 9X6 max dia. and pitch, will allow both IE, and E power to compete. Though I would welcome ARF's and ARC's, I would like to see more than those show up. That's why the minimal creativity points.

[Balsa Butcher]

I'm not sure if electrics were being considered for this event.  I see it as more of a local, engine specific event like NW Sport 40 Carrier. 

[Clint Ormosen]

With electric being the "wave of the future", I'd really prefer to see some other limit than engine displacement.

Wing span is easy to measure but would it work? Span and weight?

(realistically, I'm not coming to USA to fly anytime soon. but I like the idea of using smaller designs)

Not being too interested in electrics myself, I hadn't considered this. I have no idea how to size electric motors so that they would be equal to a .25 engine.

I am afraid it would go the way of P-40 Stunt.  Locally I would say do what you want, but Nationally I think we have way too many stunt events.  My opinion.

Doc, this would be a "local contest" type of event. I'm in agreement with you about the number of events nationally.

I'd support it - prefer a token (10 maybe) appearance points to encourage new builds, creativity, and give the ARF Flite Streak fliers something to aspire to. A plane that comes to mind is Alan Brickhaus' "Scepter 500" which was originally designed for a Fox 35.  Why not allow Fox 35's in the class? Comparable power to a 25 FP but twice the headaches...what's not to like. 

I could go for a few points tossed out there for creativity. It might get a few original airplanes built. But let's keep the Fox .35's out of it.

I'm not sure if electrics were being considered for this event.  I see it as more of a local, engine specific event like NW Sport 40 Carrier. 

Exactly!

.25 stunt with all CLPA rules and AMA CL general rules.  Only difference is the engine size. Flite Streaks, light Ringmsters, Barnstomers, many early profiles, lots  of planes for this "catagory" and to what end?  Just for the heck of it?

Yes Ty. Just for the heck of it.

[Brett Buck]

.25 stunt with all CLPA rules and AMA CL general rules.  Only difference is the engine size. Flite Streaks, light Ringmsters, Barnstomers, many early profiles, lots  of planes for this "catagory" and to what end?  Just for the heck of it?

     Hmmm, Ted has been threatening to put a 25VF in his Chizler, and I would be tempted to put together a 51 Nobler and a 25FP. Almost any 35-sized classic plane would fly better with a current 25 that it did back in the day.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

     Hmmm, Ted has been threatening to put a 25VF in his Chizler, and I would be tempted to put together a 51 Nobler and a 25FP. Almost any 35-sized classic plane would fly better with a current 25 that it did back in the day.

    Brett

That's the spirit! However, I'm sure Ted would want to pipe the VF and I'd like to see this as a pipeless event. But I know for a fact that an ARF Nobler flies ok with an LA 25.

[Joseph Lijoi]

Its an interesting concept, but what was the intent of the original WAM classes based on displacement?  Times have really changed when it comes to HP.  I would think that the limit would be on wing area or something like that.  I would bet there are 25's out there that produce more HP than an ST 46, even without a pipe. 

As for Barnstormers, Ringmasters etc. they are covered in other events.  The problem is when a limit is introduced people try to change the limit.  As someone mentioned it could go the way of the P-40 event.

Are we trying to get more flyers or just have another event for people who already fly?

My flying buddy and I fly in a very public place.  People watch and are interested and ask questions.  There seems to be a some interest.

When the Nobler ARF came out a lot of people were talking a one design contest.  But the idea never caught on.  This and one or two available 25's and electric maybe.

I used to race slot cars.  Not those Scale ones that are akin to model trains but ones on commercial tracks.  155' road courses where you pay for track time.  Big Jim Greenaway was an east coast legend in this kind of slot car racing.

At one time you had to build these things out of sheet brass and wire.  The interest waned and then Parma came out with a stamped steel 2 piece chassis called the flexi car for 15 bucks.  They handled really well.  The flexi car saved the hobby and the flexi car class was born with appropriate limits to motors.  There were tricks to setting these things up and people would buy 10 sealed motors to cherry pick but it was fun.

The irony is that the most popular form of this kind of racing is now Retro Slot.  What is Retro Slot?  It is where you build your own chassis out of, you guessed it, sheet brass and wire.

Go figure.

So a limited discplacement is a good idea.  But I would couple that with a limit of an appropriate make of engine IC or electric or IC only, and a good design that flys well that most people would be happy with like an ARF Nobler.  Sure, people would rework 25 LA's but the guy with the stock motor can still have fun.  This would get some guys who used to fly or who are flying RC back in and eventually they would be building again too.


 

 

[Clint Ormosen]

Good post, Joseph. Definitely one of the big problems of this event is that the modern IC .25 makes as much (and in most cases more) power than older .35's make. If we dropped the displacement down to .20, it would become the "FP20" event with maybe a Veco .19 or two thrown in. I guess we could make it .19's and down or just non-schnerle (sp) motors up to .25. but I doubt anyone one want to fly them.
 It would be very difficult to limit the sq.in. of the plane because it's too hard to check at a contest. I still think that the original idea of a no-pipe, IC engine to .25 would still be fun to fly. Maybe the added HP of some of these newer engines could inspire some cool designs.

The reason for all this is that I just received my CD license from the AMA and was thinking of putting on a contest here in NorCal. I was going to keep it simple to start with just PA classes, but I thought a "gimmick" event that didn't take too much time out of the day would be a cool addition. That's why no AP's. Just weigh it and fly it.

As an afterthought: I think that breaking this into sorta skill classes, like Sportsman/Compeditor might get more people to enter.

[Balsa Butcher]

How 'bout Classic with skill classes as the primary event? That concept is long overdue IMHO. 

[Clint Ormosen]

How 'bout Classic with skill classes as the primary event? That concept is long overdue IMHO.  

I updated the bottom of my last post, Pete. But I like your idea too.

You need to get your CD license too so you can do this with me.

[Clint Ormosen]

Good idea!  I just am glad I'll be able to fit my plane in my car again. Its tough to fit a Sig Chipmunk in a 2 door Cavalier.  Would these be full fuselage or can they be profile designs?
David Johnson

Sorry, David. I missed your question.

ANY airplane! Profile, full fuse, combat, whatever.

[BYU]

I am in, up to 25, no pipes any designs. Would like to use a 10x4 prop if possible, so not that happy about the 9 inch limit.

Very cool idea. When is the first contest?

[Brett Buck]

As for Barnstormers, Ringmasters etc. they are covered in other events.  The problem is when a limit is introduced people try to change the limit.  As someone mentioned it could go the way of the P-40 event.

     Other than it morphing into "Profile" without the 40, what happened to it?  The best stunt motor of all time is a 40, and a 40 might as well be no limit at all, since you can fly just about any size plane with it. It's almost the same with a 25 - it's not much of a limit, in and of itself.

    If what we want is a simple event, exclude the experts. That's sort of what I was implying above - the more limits you put on the event, the more the experts will dominate it. That's pretty much what happened in WAM engine classes for a while, although that's probably not what killed it.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

I am in, up to 25, no pipes any designs. Would like to use a 10x4 prop if possible, so not that happy about the 9 inch limit.

Very cool idea. When is the first contest?

Dunno. We're very early in the planning stage. I'm thinking April or May. There seem to be plenty of late season contests around here already. But now I'm counting on you to enter "Stunt .25" (if it happens).

[Brett Buck]

Oh BTW, I'm calling for the immediate disqualification of Brett's Skyray/20FP. He's had WAY too much time to develop it.

   It also may be relevant that it still holds the WAM A Stunt High Score record, at least until there's a WAM secretary to disallow it  - since it was really a 21. And I suspect the next time it has even a hard landing it the Monokote will shatter into dust. It's getting extremely brittle from UV exposure.

     Brett

p.s. I guess I never answered the original question- I probably *wouldn't* fly Stunt 25, unless I was requested to for promotional purposes. Because I think too many experts infesting the event will defeat any possible purpose it might have.

[Clint Ormosen]

    Other than it morphing into "Profile" without the 40, what happened to it?  The best stunt motor of all time is a 40, and a 40 might as well be no limit at all, since you can fly just about any size plane with it. It's almost the same with a 25 - it's not much of a limit, in and of itself.

    If what we want is a simple event, exclude the experts. That's sort of what I was implying above - the more limits you put on the event, the more the experts will dominate it. That's pretty much what happened in WAM engine classes for a while, although that's probably not what killed it.

    Brett

Some truth here. Agreed, the .40 will fly darned near anything. However, the .25 will not. Good luck getting a Sig Chipmunk through the pattern on a muffled .25. Oh sure, I suppose it can be done, but I doubt there would be a long line of pilots waiting to try it. I foresee the list of planes to be more like Skyrays, Flight Streaks, Super Clowns, Tomahawks, Shoestrings, Twisters, ect.
 What if we limit the prop to 9"? Would it make a difference? I don't want too many limits or restrictions on this. That kills it.
 I wouldn't want to see the Experts excluded either. That's why I suggested split skill classes. As an Advanced pilot, I'd fly the competitor class (I don't mind getting my butt kicked). But anyone could sign up for whatever they felt comfortable with.

[Clint Ormosen]

  It also may be relevant that it still holds the WAM A Stunt High Score record, at least until there's a WAM secretary to disallow it  - since it was really a 21. And I suspect the next time it has even a hard landing it the Monokote will shatter into dust. It's getting extremely brittle from UV exposure.

     Brett

p.s. I guess I never answered the original question- I probably *wouldn't* fly Stunt 25, unless I was requested to for promotional purposes. Because I think too many experts infesting the event will defeat any possible purpose it might have.

I honestly thought the WAM record was held by Bill Howe's Bearcat. Oops!

Brett, I'd want you enter just to get more pilots interested. We know we can't beat you, but you could sandbag a little.

[Brett Buck]

Some truth here. Agreed, the .40 will fly darned near anything. However, the .25 will not. Good luck getting a Sig Chipmunk through the pattern on a muffled .25. Oh sure, I suppose it can be done, but I doubt there would be a long line of pilots waiting to try it.

  It wouldn't be optimal but it would sure be a lot better than the Fox 35 version, and lots of people used to do that.

    Brett

[PerttiMe]

Sooo, is the local kid whose mother doesn't allow smelly things in the house and is scared of IC engines anyway out? He could probably plug together an electric like he does for his R/C parkflyer...

[Brett Buck]

Sooo, is the local kid whose mother doesn't allow smelly things in the house and is scared of IC engines anyway out? He could probably plug together an electric like he does for his R/C parkflyer...

   Out of a 25-sized IC engine event?  I would suppose so. Maybe someone with an apparent passion on the topic should propose a different event where electric motors are used.

    Brett

[jim gilmore]

I do not fly competetalivy but I do  think a change in how planes are sized would be beneficil.
I personally think that the 1.2A pathfinder really is not a 1/2 A
It is a 1/2A flown on a very strong 1/2A...
Get 1/2A down to 35" max ws.
Get A class to      48" max
and bc is everything else...

[Clint Ormosen]

I do not fly competetalivy but I do  think a change in how planes are sized would be beneficil.
I personally think that the 1.2A pathfinder really is not a 1/2 A
It is a 1/2A flown on a very strong 1/2A...
Get 1/2A down to 35" max ws.
Get A class to      48" max
and bc is everything else...

That's an idea too, Jim. However, I personally don't enjoy fussing with 1/2A engines. So I wouldn't propose anything like that.

[Clint Ormosen]

Sooo, is the local kid whose mother doesn't allow smelly things in the house and is scared of IC engines anyway out?.

I guess so. This was supposed to be somewhat nostalgic and just for (up to) .25 IC motors. I don't have a thing against electrics, but they're not for this event.

[YakNine]

Just call it Foxberg Stunt and allow the planes and engines allowed at Brodaks give the racers something else to use their planes for. T.J.

[Sean McEntee]

      Honestly, I think that we are approaching the problem of having too many events.  I went down to the WSKI contest in August and the Broken Arrow in September.  I flew OTS, Profile, flew classic at the former contest and judged at the latter.  Both contests were SUPER BUSY!  Between those 2 days I sat down once.  Was exhausted at the end of both days...and im 28 and I max my PT test!

      So if you add another event, there are issues.  First is manpower--finding 2 more warm bodies to judge.  Next is entries.  It would be almost impossible to fly all 4 events, so people will start picking and choosing 2-3 events to fly.  Folks already complain about dwindling contest attendance, so if you factor the lack of entries with the idea that not everyone will fly every event, you will see a few events with only 1-2 entries.  Also, those 1-2 missing entries cost the club money for plaques/tropies that arent recouped in entry fee.

      If the times were different, and you were pulling 20-30 entries per event, forcing people to pick an event or two would make sense.  Right now, lets just get people to enter the events we have.

[Bill Little]

Hi Clint,

Wonderful idea, but IMHO, the .25 is too big.  I have seen an ARF Nobler place second in Expert (a pretty decent class at Huntersville w/NATS top 5 pilots).  Also remember a very good Dolphin flying on a Veco .19BB.

There are PLENTY of .19s (all makes) and .15s out there, the VECO .19BB is still being made and about the same cost as the .25LA.  And .15s (especially the FP and LA) are a dime a dozen it seems.  A built up Peacemaker on an OS .15FP or LA could be killer!  And all the old 48"-50"/Fox .35 size Classic stunters would fly well on a Veco .19BB (how about a Still Stuka?) as long as they weren't made out of lead.

As has been said, the OS .25FP or LA puts out a lot more usable power than many of the old cross flow .35s.  Wouldn't doubt that the Brodak does also, I have just never had one.

For one I love the idea, but it seems, to me, to be too large an engine for the engines we have today, so I would limit the engine to .19 like it was.

Just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation.......
Big Bear

[Dennis Moritz]

How about a non-flap event. Perhaps restricted to specific designs. Flite Streak, Ringmaster, Skyray, Short wing Magician. Simple planes. Engine restriction to .25, since they're common. A Foxberg styled stunt event. No fuss, no muss, stunt. 1-10 appearance points might be nice. Criteria: fit, finish and zooty.

I already built my entry. And it's a cheater.

[Brett Buck]

     Honestly, I think that we are approaching the problem of having too many events.

   It has already gotten to that point. That's the big issue. There's already no practical way to hold all 7 at a 2-day local contest.

    Brett

[Dennis Moritz]

Guess I'm simply describing Profile Stunt with smaller engines. And. No flaps. Perhaps we could run a no-flap profile 25 integrated into straight profile. Same as Nostalgia is run with Classic. The no flap planes are sport planes by and large. Most of us have 2 or 3 or more in various levels of decay. Nice thing is they are so familiar, we've worked with their quirks for years. High on the fun quotient. Least effected by weird winds. Competitive profile planes with flaps usually means an ARF or ARC Brodak P40. At least on the East Coast. Or a Cardinal. Pathfinder. A competitive stunt war wagon with a flat fues. Except if you are Dan Banjok flying a Ringmaster. Or Mike Palko doing it with an electric Clown.

[Leo Mehl]

Artic fox with Enya 25. I think n this would work.

[Tim Wescott]

To answer your original question: probably not.

I think that having skill level classes makes a lot more sense than having engine size classes.  And I don't think there's room for a full matrix of skill levels and engine displacements.

I'd much rather go to a contest where I can compete in Sportsman Profile and Intermediate Precision Aerobatics than one where I can fly my 25 powered plane against a bunch of other 25 powered planes, but I have to go head to head with guys who usually fly expert.

[Clint Ormosen]

To answer your original question: probably not.

I think that having skill level classes makes a lot more sense than having engine size classes.  And I don't think there's room for a full matrix of skill levels and engine displacements.

I'd much rather go to a contest where I can compete in Sportsman Profile and Intermediate Precision Aerobatics than one where I can fly my 25 powered plane against a bunch of other 25 powered planes, but I have to go head to head with guys who usually fly expert.

That's why I suggested a Sportsman and Compeditor class(es). Now I'm thinking "no flaps" might be something to throw in. I'm afraid of making too many rules for this, but I would like to level the Field a little. Big Iron suggested engines no bigger than 19's, but I'm afraid that will turn off too many people. Personally I'd like it better. This isn't supposed to be another profile event, so I won't limit that even though most of the entries probably would be profile.

[jim ivey]

Smaller size airplanes always seemed "mushy" to me. likr to much wing loading for the wing area. they don't seem to"fly" a good example of what I mean were the "Clowns" big ones rlew ok smaller ones would mush nearly to the ground on hard turns. not as bad as a cox plane, but like that. I'm not going to enter anything again most likely. So  I  guess my opinion dont count. jim

[Larry Fernandez]

Count me in Clint!!!!!
My weapon of choice, Still Stuka with an FP .20. A match made in stunt heaven.
I also think a light Jetco Dolphin with an FP .20 would be quite competitive
I would want to see appearance points, I need all the help I can get.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Brett Buck]

Smaller size airplanes always seemed "mushy" to me. likr to much wing loading for the wing area. they don't seem to"fly" a good example of what I mean were the "Clowns" big ones rlew ok smaller ones would mush nearly to the ground on hard turns. not as bad as a cox plane, but like that. I'm not going to enter anything again most likely. So  I  guess my opinion dont count. jim

   I think that's mostly because everybody moved on from small airplanes before they learned how to design them. Larger airplanes from the Flying Clown era mostly flew poorly, too.

    If you have 25 stunt, and someone takes it to the end of development, they will look a lot like 75% Impacts, not Flying Clowns, and I guarantee *mine* will turn. In fact, The Dirt seems to have a head start on us, and I can assure you that the Wimpact *does not* mush around in the corners.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

Count me in Clint!!!!!
My weapon of choice, Still Stuka with an FP .20. A match made in stunt heaven.
I also think a light Jetco Dolphin with an FP .20 would be quite competitive
I would want to see appearance points, I need all the help I can get.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Glad to hear that you'd be in, Larry. BUT, would you still be interested if there were no AP? How 'bout if there were no flaps allowed or at least a point deduction for having them?"

 I want this to be a simple event. As Brett stated, taken to the extreme the airplanes will become 75% Impacts! I don't want that type of model development in this event. Cheap and simple. Just another opportunity to fly at a contest. Not a pressure event.
 

[Larry Fernandez]

    If you have 25 stunt, and someone takes it to the end of development, they will look a lot like 75% Impacts, not Flying Clowns, and I guarantee *mine* will turn. In fact, The Dirt seems to have a head start on us, and I can assure you that the Wimpact *does not* mush around in the corners.

    Brett
[/quote]


HHHmmmmmm so how big would an Infinity need to be if optimized for an FP .20 ?  Say about 480 sq in ??

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Larry Fernandez]

Glad to hear that you'd be in, Larry. BUT, would you still be interested if there were no AP? How 'bout if there were no flaps allowed or at least a point deduction for having them?"

 I want this to be a simple event. As Brett stated, taken to the extreme the airplanes will become 75% Impacts! I don't want that type of model development in this event. Cheap and simple. Just another opportunity to fly at a contest. Not a pressure event.
 

Cheap and simple you say, The still Stuka was designed in 1952. Things were pretty simple back then. As far as cheap goes, how much more does it cost to add flaps to a plane??

One of the things I enjoy most about any contest, is to admire the workmanship and detail of the planes entered. Not to sound like a jackass, but I dont find myself getting jazzed over  monocoated profiles.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
 

[FLOYD CARTER]

I like small planes (not 1/2-A though).  You should consider that in many parts of the country, it is most always too windy for small planes.  (If not for the big 60 engines, I wouldn't have many flying days).

Not everyone lives in So Cal.  The wind blows most everywhere else.

F.C.

[Balsa Butcher]

Sportsman:No Flaps, Competitor:anything goes? Appearance points: Borrowed or bought RTF: 0 pts, ARF: 1-4 pts, ARC: 1-8 pts, Kit or plans: 1-10. Category declared at registration, competitors word on what is what. (just brainstorming here)

[Brett Buck]

I like small planes (not 1/2-A though).  You should consider that in many parts of the country, it is most always too windy for small planes.  (If not for the big 60 engines, I wouldn't have many flying days).

Not everyone lives in So Cal.

  Neither does Clint. And for the record some of the most difficult air we ever fly in is at Whittier Narrows.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

HHHmmmmmm so how big would an Infinity need to be if optimized for an FP .20 ?  Say about 480 sq in ??

     I would go even smaller than that, maybe 400-410. You underestimate how fat the airfoil is.

    Brett

[Steve Helmick]

I'm not in favor of more events. While California has a history of "Class A" Stunt, not many other areas do. I've gone to the GSSC twice, and Profile isn't flown there, so why would you want to have another event that also won't be flown there? Just wondering what there is to gain. The number of circles available is a limiting factor, and finding the staff to make the contest happen becomes a bigger problem. 

I've been to most of the contests this season in Oregon, Washington, and BC.  None had stellar entry levels. There's no way that adding another event would improve the situation. I just hope that the trend is related to bad weather or the economy, and will reverse itself in the future. I can't see that adding events can help.  Steve   

[Clint Ormosen]

Cheap and simple you say, The still Stuka was designed in 1952. Things were pretty simple back then. As far as cheap goes, how much more does it cost to add flaps to a plane??

One of the things I enjoy most about any contest, is to admire the workmanship and detail of the planes entered. Not to sound like a jackass, but I dont find myself getting jazzed over  monocoated profiles.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
 

Larry, I can't tell if you're messing with me, here.
When I said "cheap", I wasn't necessarily referring to the price of flaps.
When I said "simple" I wasn't necessarily referring to the (non)complexity of the Stuka
There is a happy medium somewhere between a 75% Impact with a 20 pt finish and MonoKote covered profiles. I'm hoping to find it.

My thinking is the "cheap" part is standard production, over the counter engines with NO pipes and some of the readily available production kits. (But doesn't HAVE to be a kit. Make a plane up!)
By "simple" I mean the event itself. Not a lot of rules and taking no time to have them appearance judged. Weigh, pull, and fly. If enough pilots were interested in having AP, I would certainly go for it too.

However, this whole idea may not work. Too many differing ideas. The Beg/Int guys want profile/ARF's and the Adv/Exp want full boat mini-stunters. I still have time to work this out, though. Not giving up just yet.

[Clint Ormosen]

I'm not in favor of more events. While California has a history of "Class A" Stunt, not many other areas do. I've gone to the GSSC twice, and Profile isn't flown there, so why would you want to have another event that also won't be flown there? Just wondering what there is to gain. The number of circles available is a limiting factor, and finding the staff to make the contest happen becomes a bigger problem. 

I've been to most of the contests this season in Oregon, Washington, and BC.  None had stellar entry levels. There's no way that adding another event would improve the situation. I just hope that the trend is related to bad weather or the economy, and will reverse itself in the future. I can't see that adding events can help.  Steve   

Steve, I agree with you that "Stunt 25" will never work on a large scale. However, I was hoping to pull it off at just one contest a year. Maybe two. I wouldn't even try to have it at the GSSC.

[Brett Buck]

However, this whole idea may not work. Too many differing ideas. The Beg/Int guys want profile/ARF's and the Adv/Exp want full boat mini-stunters. I still have time to work this out, though. Not giving up just yet.

     No, I wouldn't give up. But one thing I would suggest as a modification is to get rid of skill classes or, as I suggested earlier, just ban experts. Flying everybody together gives everybody a way to see how they "stack up" (not to mention simplifying the administration). It doesn't seem to hurt anything in Classic, and many people mention that they like classic for that reason.

    I certainly wouldn't want to have airplane restrictions. There's no good reason to limit it that I can see and most of the engines we are talking about work well on profiles, so there wouldn't be a huge motivation to build full-fuse airplanes. And you permit some creativity and imagination.

    If you are going to do this, decide pretty soon and let everyone know in time to get airplanes built. I will either judge it or build and airplane and fly in it if you want, for promotional purposes. Larry took my first idea, but I think I can make a "Super-Feno" using a Feno wing and a longer tail moment by next spring. 20FP or 25LA (boost port version).

    Brett

[Mike Scholtes]

Hi Clint:

Since this idea seems to be trending towards a "CentralCal-25" event, I too will commit to building something for Spring 2012. I already have a Goldberg Shoestring (scratch built in Tuscany in 1974 no less) with an LA25, but it got too porky in a rebuild. A Brodak Shark 402 would be a good choice, maybe with flaps, or a scaled down Medic. Or something completely original! I think the fatter-winged designs would be too draggy for most 25s if the same airfoil was retained, so maybe some thinning would be called for. Interesting idea, don't give up!

[Clint Ormosen]

   
    If you are going to do this, decide pretty soon and let everyone know in time to get airplanes built. I will either judge it or build and airplane and fly in it if you want, for promotional purposes. Larry took my first idea, but I think I can make a "Super-Feno" using a Feno wing and a longer tail moment by next spring. 20FP or 25LA (boost port version).

    Brett

Thanks Brett! I wanted to do this at a contest early in the next year. If it turns out that *I* can't be the one to put on said contest, I'll see if I can tack this event onto some other CD's contest. I'll everyone know if it's a go ASAP.

[Clint Ormosen]

Hi Clint:

Since this idea seems to be trending towards a "CentralCal-25" event, I too will commit to building something for Spring 2012. I already have a Goldberg Shoestring (scratch built in Tuscany in 1974 no less) with an LA25, but it got too porky in a rebuild. A Brodak Shark 402 would be a good choice, maybe with flaps, or a scaled down Medic. Or something completely original! I think the fatter-winged designs would be too draggy for most 25s if the same airfoil was retained, so maybe some thinning would be called for. Interesting idea, don't give up!

Thanks Mike. Please see my post above this one.

[Brett Buck]

A Brodak Shark 402 would be a good choice, maybe with flaps, or a scaled down Medic

  Don't scale down a Medic, it's already the right size. Goes GREAT with a 25FP, we have proof.

    Brett

[Bill Ervin]

I've been following this thread Clint and like the idea.  Miniature versions of big stunters possess an undeniable cuteness factor.  A 500 sq. in.  35 oz. version of one of Windy's old designs perhaps?   This one was built 20 years ago with a Fox 35.  A smooth running, modern 25 would be better!  I'm in!

[Balsa Butcher]

Actually, I'm having second thoughts about the concept of custom mini-stunters. I think they would be really cool but for the first year I'm going to recommend a simpler event: No Experts, No appearance points, No flaps. Flite-Streaks, Profile Shark, Magicians, Bill Howe's Bearcat, Skyrays, etc. At least for the first year. If it catches on, you can always add an unlimited/competitor class the next year (leaving time to build) for more serious competitors and open this class to experts . Appearance points should be given at this level. I think there would be time to run it at most NorCal contests, possibly tacked on to Intermediate like NOS 30 is to Classic.

[Jim Thomerson]

For a number of years I have been happily competing in stunt, at the Advanced level, with airplanes powered by TD 09, McCoy 19, Cameron 19, ST G23, etc.  I've flown compete patterns and survived in wind which put piped airplanes in the ground.  No need to make a special category for me. 

On the Doctor/Medic comment, a friend had a scaled down Doctor with a tuned Paw 09 diesel on it.  I watched him fly it in wind where everyone else had put their airplanes in the car.  He did things like triangular vertical 8's, and outside triangles with the points at the bottom.  All with one foot bottoms.  He commented, "That Ted Fancher knows some stuff!" 

[Clint Ormosen]

Lots of good comments here. I appreciate  all of them.

The problem with banning Experts from the class is that the Advanced pilots become the experts. So all it does is give the Advanced guys a trophy shot and the Intermediate guys are screwed.
I'm considering the "no flaps" idea. It would really limit class "development". Yes, I know there are flapless models out there that are very competitive. But you can't ban everything or it's no fun.

[Balsa Butcher]

Your right Clint, let anyone who wants to fly enter regardless of ability. I'd still support no flaps (for the first year anyway) just to keep the playing field a bit more level for those who enter the more basic designs. 

[Brett Buck]

Your right Clint, let anyone who wants to fly enter regardless of ability. I'd still support no flaps (for the first year anyway) just to keep the playing field a bit more level for those who enter the more basic designs. 

   Oh, I don't think that's going to level it, particular in terms of designing it. It may even the score in trimming - since they are easy to trim, you don't have to know that much about it to get it close. But if it's harder to fly, or has limited performance, that will make the gap bigger.  But a general rule of any sport or contest - the more you try to limit it, the more dominant the experts will get.

     Brett

[Joseph Lijoi]

Clint

This is an interesting thread that you have started.  Its kind of morphing into what would be a killer .25 set-up.

I wouldn't DQ the Brett Buck Skyray.  Maybe Brett Buck, or guys named Brett.  To Mr Bucks credit, the development was really finding readily available products in the right combination.  An elegant solution to a problem.  Most of what I read about the Brett Buck Skyray is build it and fly it.  If I am correct, the only mods he recommends are balsa ribs, which is really just to minimize crash damage.  He claims there is really no gain in performance. 

What I read on the FP 20 use is pretty much stock.  Run it on the ground once and then go fly.   The 9-4 APC prop is available in the worst of hobby shops.  Not really what some guys want to hear which is you can by this stuff from Tower Hobies and it works.  Unfortunately the FP 20 is no longer available.

Maybe the WAM rules were to get guys to fly stunt who didn't have a Fox .35.

I would say the Brett Buck Skyray would make a great event. 

 

[Balsa Butcher]

Maybe level the playing field was a poor choice of words. What I meant to convey is that within the class (if there are going to be classes) the planes would be more evenly matched if limited to non-flapped designs. The point is probably moot as I would venture a guess that the plane to beat will be a Skyray with an FP-20. 

[Mike Scholtes]

Speaking of suitable designs ....

I've made some preliminary inquiry about getting a laser-cut short kit of Ted Fancher's "Medic," wing ribs, fuselage sides, ply doublers, and a set of plans. That is all that the guys who follow this site need. Would there be any interest in this model if it was available (whether for this proposed event or just generally)?  Of course to go beyond the "idea" stage Ted would have to agree to allow it to be kitted and the other legal niceties resolved. I am not aware of it being available other than as plans.

[Clint Ormosen]

Speaking of suitable designs ....

I've made some preliminary inquiry about getting a laser-cut short kit of Ted Fancher's "Medic," wing ribs, fuselage sides, ply doublers, and a set of plans. That is all that the guys who follow this site need. Would there be any interest in this model if it was available (whether for this proposed event or just generally)?  Of course to go beyond the "idea" stage Ted would have to agree to allow it to be kitted and the other legal niceties resolved. I am not aware of it being available other than as plans.

Mike, I think Walter U. was going to kit the Doctor and Medic. (with Teds blessing.) You might want to check on that.

[builditright]

Quote from: Mike Scholtes on October 12, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Speaking of suitable designs ....

Speaking of suitable designs ....

I've made some preliminary inquiry about getting a laser-cut short kit of Ted Fancher's "Medic," wing ribs, fuselage sides, ply doublers, and a set of plans. That is all that the guys who follow this site need. Would there be any interest in this model if it was available (whether for this proposed event or just generally)?  Of course to go beyond the "idea" stage Ted would have to agree to allow it to be kitted and the other legal niceties resolved. I am not aware of it being available other than as plans.

Mike, I think Walter U. was going to kit the Doctor and Medic. (with Teds blessing.) You might want to check on that.

Hi Mike, what Clint posted is true, I received Ted's blessing to kit his three profiles; the Dr, Medic and his Fancherized Twister.

We are almost ready with his Twister and will be making a few soon but only have the Medic partially done.

If you want a set of ribs I could cut you a set now. I could also provide you with a top view of the wing to build from but our final plans are not completed yet.

If you are interested, send me an email and we can go from there.

Also thank you Clint for the heads up. 

[RogerGreene]

Hi Cliint,

A smaller size plane is a great idea. How about limiting the wing span to 50" and lines to .012"?

My 2¢

Roger

[phil c]

Just build yourself a nice plane and go fly it in the regular events- Profile, Pamap, AMA.  Many of the early stunters will fly extremely well with a Scnuerle 25.  If I remembe correctly, Steve Wooley built and flew a series of Argus designs back in the late 50's early 60's using the Fox 29 stunt engine.  You need a totally different set of numbers than for a 60 in., 4 lb 75 powered plane, but don't let that stop you.

[john e. holliday]

Maybe it is time for a handi-cap system.   I know Richard Byron worked on a list of peoples scores flying the different stunt classes for a few years.   Was supposed to average a persons scores over time.   I think the deal was an average of ten contest scores.  But, almost everyone knows how their scores are going.  How about a contest where the contestant writes his score he thinks he might get on a sheet of paper and then seal it in an envelope.   At end of day when all scores are posted, open the sealed envelope and see who got the closest.

Thinking on this it could be locally real easy as past records of a contest should be available.  The first place guy gets no handi-cap.  Then the guys/gals behind him, their handicap is the points behind they are of his score.  Or is it the hadi-cap is the number of points behind the perfect score of the pattern.

[MikeyPratt]

Hi Clint,
I'm in on this one.  Keep in mind that P-40 started out this way and morphed into a large profile event allowing 46’s and flaps.  This always seemed counterproductive to me (just my opinion).  The original concept of P-40 was a simple model with no flaps and .40 and smaller engines.  Brett and others have shown that simple models when adequately powered and trimmed, can be highly competitive.  This also allowed the use of kitted models such as, Skyray, Buster, Shoestring, Flitestreak, and a bunch of others.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Mikey

[Brett Buck]

I wouldn't DQ the Brett Buck Skyray.  Maybe Brett Buck, or guys named Brett.  To Mr Bucks credit, the development was really finding readily available products in the right combination.  An elegant solution to a problem.  Most of what I read about the Brett Buck Skyray is build it and fly it.  If I am correct, the only mods he recommends are balsa ribs, which is really just to minimize crash damage.  He claims there is really no gain in performance. 

What I read on the FP 20 use is pretty much stock.  Run it on the ground once and then go fly.   The 9-4 APC prop is available in the worst of hobby shops.  Not really what some guys want to hear which is you can by this stuff from Tower Hobies and it works.  Unfortunately the FP 20 is no longer available.

Maybe the WAM rules were to get guys to fly stunt who didn't have a Fox .35.

I would say the Brett Buck Skyray would make a great event. 

 

  This is rather flattering. I am glad someone appreciates the effort, which was not insubstantial. In any case it was fun and I learned something, actually a lot of things.

   You have the details essentially correct. If anyone wants to see the originals its documented ad nauseum on SSW, to the point most people got sick of hearing about it. In short, run the engine STOCK, NO MODS AT ALL, with the STOCK MUFFLER and an APC 9-4. Adjust needle to get the speed right and the engine running in a solid medium 2-stroke.

   I don't think it would make much of an event to have it just a Skyray/20FP or 25LA one-design event. It would immensely aid most of the beginner and intermediate fliers since it would fly much better than their usual airplanes and engines and would be easy to trim. In fact at this point I could set up an assembly line for trimming and make them all essentially identical, just bench-trimming them. But I feel it would get boring for the participants pretty quickly.

   It's a darn shame they don't sell 15LA-S's any more, that would be an even more interesting event than 25 (which doesn't seem like much of a limit as previously noted).

   Talking about this gives me another interesting idea that I think I will pursue (secretly until I know I can do it).

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Hi Clint,
I'm in on this one.  Keep in mind that P-40 started out this way and morphed into a large profile event allowing 46’s and flaps.  This always seemed counterproductive to me (just my opinion).  The original concept of P-40 was a simple model with no flaps and .40 and smaller engines.  Brett and others have shown that simple models when adequately powered and trimmed, can be highly competitive.  This also allowed the use of kitted models such as, Skyray, Buster, Shoestring, Flitestreak, and a bunch of others.

  In this case I would debate whether flaps would even be an advantage. I can do square 8's with the Skyray that would be competitive at the TT and it's as easy as falling off a log. The only real limitation it has is that its difficult to fly good straight lines (since you have to put in a substantial AoA change to change the track).

    Brett

[proparc]

I personally would not fly stunt 25 because, I need at least 60 feet "of something" to be comfortable. That means at least a 40.

[Brett Buck]

I personally would not fly stunt 25 because, I need at least 60 feet "of something" to be comfortable. That means at least a 40.

   I don't think many 25FP stunt planes will be flying on less than 60 foot lines!! You will sure be spinning like a bat out of Hades if you are much under that. The standard for the 20/25 FP is 60 to 62.

   BTW, since this is the time for inputs, if 4-stroke enthusiasts want to play along, you might talk Clint into the 60% rule so you can use Saito 30s.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

I personally would not fly stunt 25 because, I need at least 60 feet "of something" to be comfortable. That means at least a 40.

Nah.. I fly 25's on 60+ ft of .012 line all the time. No problem.

Hi Clint,
I'm in on this one.  Keep in mind that P-40 started out this way and morphed into a large profile event allowing 46’s and flaps.  This always seemed counterproductive to me (just my opinion).  The original concept of P-40 was a simple model with no flaps and .40 and smaller engines.  Brett and others have shown that simple models when adequately powered and trimmed, can be highly competitive.  This also allowed the use of kitted models such as, Skyray, Buster, Shoestring, Flitestreak, and a bunch of others.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Mikey

Mike, this is right on with what I'm thinking!

   
BTW, since this is the time for inputs, if 4-stroke enthusiasts want to play along, you might talk Clint into the 60% rule so you can use Saito 30s.

    Brett

Hmmm........ I kinda' doubt it. If I do that I'll get hit from all sides about letting some size of diesel or electric motor in, too. it's going to be a 2 stroke glow event, period.

[Air Ministry .]

N 30 / 25 .  thatd keep a lid on it . No Composites .Or Plastic . 

[Dennis Moritz]

Sportsman 25. Profiles. No flaps. Can be flown integrated into Profile P46. Same as Nostalgia flown at same time, in front of same judges, as Classic.

Possible sidebar rule: plane must have been kitted. Foamies similarly included.

Flapped planes are more complicated to trim and build. Obviously. When trimmed correctly they fly better (in mortal hands), usually. I guess. Despite Brett's high scores with a Skyray. And Dan Banjok beating up on locals on the East Coats (including Brodak) with Flea Market purchased Ringmasters powered by stock Fox 35s. Well. Usually they are stock Fox 35s. But these days it might be the Fox 35 with the Banjok lapped in piston/cylinder, the replaced and re-fitted front bushing, zoot crank, ringed back plate, straightened case... well, it is a contemporary stock Fox 35. The engine kit.

[MikeyPratt]

  In this case I would debate whether flaps would even be an advantage. I can do square 8's with the Skyray that would be competitive at the TT and it's as easy as falling off a log. The only real limitation it has is that its difficult to fly good straight lines (since you have to put in a substantial AoA change to change the track).

    Brett

My point exactly!!!

Mikey

[proparc]

While I tend to prefer the bigger ships, having flown a lot of Larry Rengers planes, I have to tell you, they are more fun than a barrel of monkeys!! Enya has a 20 size engine that I believe, may be jam packed with control line stunt goodness.

A 25 size category by it's very nature, would be a fun event. Instead of trying do things like eliminate the BOM rule, maybe, events like this with smaller less involved planes, would be one way to go. Designing kits for these motors would certainly be a snap.

I say, give it a try.

[Tom Niebuhr]

I think that this is a great idea, but I also wonder if we have too many events.

I would not restrict it to no flaps. If we have a new event why not encourage new design also. I wouldn't want it to be just another event for 50 year old profiles. Apply what we have learned over the years.

I flew a Fox .25 stunter at the '61 Nats and it was a great little airplane. More recently  I have designed the "Hobo" as a simple step up airplane. It will fly well with an FP .25, with no vibration or twisting problems.

There are also many Classics and some Old Timer full bodied airplanes that would be great for the event. I might even have to finish building the Hi Boy that I started 10 years ago.

[rob biddle]

   About 10 years ago we introduced a club stunt competition for .15 engines max.

 We had a program with a couple of local schools that got kids involved in racing events so they already had o.s fp.10 and .15 engines. This was just an offshoot to allow them to get involved in stunt at minimal additional time and expense.

 It was pretty successful for a couple of years, the only rule was .15cu" engines max, flown to vintage stunt pattern.

 Lots of fun all round.

 Cheers, Rob...

[Tom Niebuhr]

Unless you are from another planet, wind is everywhere.

[Bill Little]

Clint,

For the first year, maybe limit it to kitted profiles with out flaps.  All the Goldberg, Top Flite, Sky Ray, etc., are available from Eric or John or Sig.  The Shoestring, Cosmic Wind, Flite Streak, ansd Skyray give a lot of choices and even the F.S. ARF will do. 

See how it goes, get feedback and go from there.  It might end up a subcontest using reduced size Trivial Pursuits, SV-11s, Saturns, Geo Bolts, etc., but if it does then so be it!

Let everyone fly together, just reduce the engine size to .25 disp. MAX to start out.  Who knows, someone might have a great flying Jr. Ringmaster with a OS .15FP they want to fly.

Big Bear

[Brett Buck]

Clint,

For the first year, maybe limit it to kitted profiles with out flaps.  All the Goldberg, Top Flite, Sky Ray, etc., are available from Eric or John or Sig.  The Shoestring, Cosmic Wind, Flite Streak, ansd Skyray give a lot of choices and even the F.S. ARF will do. 

See how it goes, get feedback and go from there.  It might end up a subcontest using reduced size Trivial Pursuits, SV-11s, Saturns, Geo Bolts, etc., but if it does then so be it!

Let everyone fly together, just reduce the engine size to .25 disp. MAX to start out.  Who knows, someone might have a great flying Jr. Ringmaster with a OS .15FP they want to fly.

   15FP/Ringmaster Jr.?  If someone does that, make sure and make it a triplane with 3 Ringmaster Jr.   One will not be enough!

     Brett

[Bill Little]

   15FP/Ringmaster Jr.?  If someone does that, make sure and make it a triplane with 3 Ringmaster Jr.   One will not be enough!

     Brett

  Probably right, how about a Flite Streak Jr. w/OS /10FP??

Big Bear