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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Clint Ormosen on October 23, 2011, 01:25:23 AM
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After reading all the input from the other thread and thinking on it myself for a while, these are the rules I've come up with for the first Stunt 25 event. If it becomes obvious after the first event is flown that rule tweaks are needed, I'll do it. If I've left something out, I'll fix it now.
1. Power- Will be one (1) stock, side exhaust glow engine of no greater size than .25. If it came out of the box marked "25" on the case, it's legal.
Internal engine modifications are PROHIBITED.
Muffler pressure to fuel tank is allowed.
Tuned pipes are prohibited.
2. Fuel- Will have a nitro content of not more than 10%. (CD has no way to check this, so don't cheat!)
3. Fuel tanks- Any rigid fuel tank is allowed.
Uniflow tanks OK.
Bladders and pacifiers are prohibited.
Timed fuel shutoffs are not allowed.
4. Props- will be 2 blade only and not have a diameter of more than 9".
Larger sized props may be cut down to 9".
Prop pitch is not regulated.
5. Models- Can be full fuse or profile of any size.
Flapped or un-flapped designs OK
Models my be scratch built, kit built, ARF's, ARC's, or any combination. Construction/finishing materials are not limited.
All models must use 2 line control (no monoline type systems.)
All models will have landing gear of at least one wheel. Uni-wheel, taildragger, and trike style gear are all acceptable.
No model will have more than ONE engine. No multi-engine designs allowed.
6. Flight- The standard AMA stunt pattern (including time limit) is to be flown and judged in the same manor as the regular PAMPA event. All AMA safety rules apply including pull test and line size requirements.
All Models will R.O.G.
Any line length is permitted (70 ft max.)
3 attempts for 2 official flights.
7. Scoring- Standard AMA scoring for Aerobatics will be used (0-40 pts). Only five (5) place awards will be given. Handicap points will be given to pilots based on their established class in PAMPA stunt.
Beginners will be handicapped 75 points
Intermediate will be handicapped 50 points
Advanced will be handicapped 20 points
Experts will receive no handicap
The best of two official flights plus any handicap points is the posted score. In case of a tie, the winner will be whichever pilot is in the LOWER skill class. If the tie is between pilots of same class, the total of both official flights will be added together to determine the placing.
8. Appearance- No points will be given for appearance in this event. A separate award will be given for "Best Presentation". This award will be decided by no less than two (2) individuals not participating in the Stunt 25 event.
Once again, I'm hoping to get a Spring contest going next year and include this event in it. This will be a NorCal contest.
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Nice Job Clint!
CLP** BW@ CLP** BW@ CLP** 010!
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Nice Job Clint!
CLP** BW@ CLP** BW@ CLP** 010!
Thanks Dennis!
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Rules look good for a start. Leaves out my little four stroke. I also don't like the 9 inch limit on props. But, what am I to say as I probably wouldn't drive that far to fly. Hope you get lots of entries. H^^
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Doc, I'm just trying to limit power with the 9" props. We all know a good .25 will spin a 10".
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Hi Clint,My Carl Goldberg Buster now has a reason to get sat on the bench!!! The rules did not mention biplanes.Would a Flying fool or similar design be allowable?Nothin' like getting the goggles and leather skull cap out once and a while.And don;t forget the scarf!!Looks like a purely fun event and I can't wait.Jeff
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Hi Clint,My Carl Goldberg Buster now has a reason to get sat on the bench!!! The rules did not mention biplanes.Would a Flying fool or similar design be allowable?Nothin' like getting the goggles and leather skull cap out once and a while.And don;t forget the scarf!!Looks like a purely fun event and I can't wait.Jeff
Full fuse biplane with one engine is perfectly legal. Bring it.
umm..... but you're in Ohio. This event is in CA. :'(
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So using a 1/2A on a balloon tank is unacceptable.....Which limits down ward compatibility...just pointing this out..
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So using a 1/2A on a balloon tank is unacceptable.....Which limits down ward compatibility...just pointing this out..
Yup, it does. .15 to 25 engines are what I was shooting for anyway.
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The no flaps rule puts me out of the contest as the classic 42 inch model I was building for the event has flaps... Bummer
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The no flaps rule puts me out of the contest as the classic 42 inch model I was building for the event has flaps... Bummer
I'm out also. I can't see building a new plane for just one contest a year.
I'm building a Still Stuka with an FP 20 that can be flow in Old Time and Classic Ithink it would hold its own in a .25 event
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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The flaps issue is not easy to solve. Half of the people want them, the other half don't. In keeping with the simple idea, I decided no flaps. Come on guys, how long would it really take you to whip up a non-flapped model for this?
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Out of pure curiosity why no flaps ?
Do flaps improve turns ? I'm unsure so I am just asking this.
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Out of pure curiosity why no flaps ?
Do flaps improve turns ?
Generally, yes.
Brett
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I'm out also. I can't see building a new plane for just one contest a year.
I'm building a Still Stuka with an FP 20 that can be flow in Old Time and Classic Ithink it would hold its own in a .25 event
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
Are you going to finish it the same as the one mounted on the wall at Warren Walker's model airplane workshop? (Ouch)
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5. Models- Can be full fuse or profile of any size.
Movable wing flaps are prohibited. Elevator control only.
That's unfortunate, there are a bunch of drawings with relatively fresh ink for 25-sized airplanes. But it's your event.
I also note that my airplane was not specifically excluded. Probably doesn't need to be, it's going to fall apart the next time anyone looks at it funny. Too many years of Monokote in the warm California sun.
Brett
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The flaps issue is not easy to solve. Half of the people want them, the other half don't. In keeping with the simple idea, I decided no flaps. Come on guys, how long would it really take you to whip up a non-flapped model for this?
Would you reconsider the flap rule?
Imagine minatures of the the top stunters like the infinity or trivial persuit?
Talk about a cool event.
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Would you reconsider the flap rule?
Imagine minatures of the the top stunters like the infinity or trivial persuit?
Talk about a cool event.
Absolutely I would reconsider. Hey, I want it to be a fun event. If enough locals say they're actually going to enter but would like to see flaps allowed, I'll change it. No Problem.
So, lets hear it. Flaps yes or no? So far I see two yes votes.
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Another local: Flaps yes 8)
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No flaps. But I will not be in North California any time soon. I talked with Tom Hampshire about including a Sportsman 25 event at Brodak to be flown integrated into Profile, same as Nostalgia is integrated into Classic. Problem is huge entry of Profile Intermediate already. Last year judges worked the event until 6pm. My thought for Sportsman 25 was profile, no flaps, 25 max size to engine. If there's interest enough we can talk event over on the East Coast during the winter. I like the idea. On the East Coast it might be wise to have a Fox 35 waver. Lots of cult members around here. Often they practice the dark art on profiles. Crazy eyed fanatics. Will not abide any abridgment to their sacred ceremonies.
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Are you going to finish it the same as the one mounted on the wall at Warren Walker's model airplane workshop? (Ouch)
Yes Bill, I bought two rolls of black Monocoat just last week.
I swear I laughed my ass off when I saw that plaque on his wall.
I dont remember if you were there when I planted that poor thing, but there was absolutly nothing left of it but those tail feathers
I knew that Warren was up to no good when he asked me if he could keep the remains.
Tell Mr. Rule that I also bought a new Monocoat iron so I will be expecting more than twelve appearance this time. (Let me know his reaction)
I'll see you all at the Mackey Contest
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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No flaps. But I will not be in North California any time soon. I talked with Tom Hampshire about including a Sportsman 25 event at Brodak to be flown integrated into Profile, same as Nostalgia is integrated into Classic. Problem is huge entry of Profile Intermediate already. Last year judges worked the event until 6pm. My thought for Sportsman 25 was profile, no flaps, 25 max size to engine. If there's interest enough we can talk event over on the East Coast during the winter. I like the idea. On the East Coast it might be wise to have a Fox 35 waver. Lots of cult members around here. Often they practice the dark art on profiles. Crazy eyed fanatics. Will not abide any abridgment to their sacred ceremonies.
Run with the idea. Out here it looks like we're probably going to go with flaps. My original idea was to have an "A" engine stunt class, but the modern .25's pump out more power than the older 35's and 40's did. I thought I could limit performance by outlawing flapped planes, but the masses aren't going for it.
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We've lots of folks in the Philly Flyers who fly unflapped profiles as all purpose knock abouts. The weird winds at Neshaminy Park, PA, probably contribute to our use of these simple and versatile designs. Busters, Cosmic Winds, Magicians, Ringmasters, Skyrays, Streaks, foamies, all the Sterling, CG, Brodak sport profiles. Fit in a car. When the winds blow above 15 or so, can still fly these without fear or remorse. Will do the pattern easy enough. Good way to tune up. The planes are flown in Foxberg, Speed Limit Combat, Old Time, Profile, Classic, Nostalgia, even PAMPA. Easy to trim. Comparatively simple to repair. Tough when they hit the turf. Almost everyone flies an assortment of these.
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An outsider comment or two:
- I like the idea of simple smaller airplanes
- I also like the idea of miniaturized "large" stunters
So... a downsized Trivial Impact Bear - with airfoils, weight and numbers tweaked for flapless - should be about perfect... Or a flapless Magician with modified fuselage and fin shape.
... what do you have against diesels and other non-glow power anyway ... S?P ?
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This is sort of a WAM (Western Associated Modelers) commemerative event. There were no diesels or non-glow planes flown in WAM "A" stunt during "the day". If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand. If you like the idea of smaller airplanes and miniaturized large stunters with diesel and electric power, feel free to start your own regional event. R%%%%
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Good job, Clint! If you want to make everybody happy (which never happens) maybe consider a no flap bonus lke OTS. Or do it like my insurance company, bonus points for everybody that you don't get if you have flaps.
I like the rules as they stand. Good luck with the event!
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There were no diesels or non-glow planes flown in WAM "A" stunt during "the day".
So this is another Vintage Stunt event. Should have said so in the first place n~
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... what do you have against diesels and other non-glow power anyway ... S?P ?
Not a thing.
So this is another Vintage Stunt event. Should have said so in the first place n~
No, not a vintage event. Just vintage inspired.
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I endorse the "no flaps" position pretty much for all the reasons Dennis M listed in post #22. You want to pursue a new event it makes sense to appeal to as many available designs as possible. In time if the event has "legs" it will likely generate more purpose built designs.
There is nothing wrong with an event that generates new design thinking - i.e. no flaps.
I will shed a tear over "no electrics" but that should not be a barrier to going forward for now...
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Hi Clint,
I like the idea of No Flaps, but I am OK with it if flaps are allowed.
Mikey
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I endorse the "no flaps" position pretty much for all the reasons Dennis M listed in post #22. You want to pursue a new event it makes sense to appeal to as many available designs as possible. In time if the event has "legs" it will likely generate more purpose built designs.
There is nothing wrong with an event that generates new design thinking - i.e. no flaps.
I will shed a tear over "no electrics" but that should not be a barrier to going forward for now...
I don't think you will need to worry too much about electric adoption. In 2-3 years, Clint's 25 event might be the only place you see glow motors.
Brett
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I endorse the "no flaps" position pretty much for all the reasons Dennis M listed in post #22. You want to pursue a new event it makes sense to appeal to as many available designs as possible. In time if the event has "legs" it will likely generate more purpose built designs.
There is nothing wrong with an event that generates new design thinking - i.e. no flaps.
I will shed a tear over "no electrics" but that should not be a barrier to going forward for now...
I liked the "no flaps" rule too. But, it seems that more guys are interested in flying flapped planes. So if it gets the event going, so be it. However I'm thinking about a "no flaps" bonus in the scoring. Not sure yet.
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I don't think you will need to worry too much about electric adoption. In 2-3 years, Clint's 25 event might be the only place you see glow motors.
Brett
I am finishing an electric Shark 402 that would probably would have done just fine in Clint's event - maybe if I make motor sounds when I fly... >:D ::)
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Yes Bill, I bought two rolls of black Monocoat just last week.
I swear I laughed my ass off when I saw that plaque on his wall.
I dont remember if you were there when I planted that poor thing, but there was absolutly nothing left of it but those tail feathers
I knew that Warren was up to no good when he asked me if he could keep the remains.
Tell Mr. Rule that I also bought a new Monocoat iron so I will be expecting more than twelve appearance this time. (Let me know his reaction)
I'll see you all at the Mackey Contest
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
Hi Larry, yep...I was there & watched the demise of the shiny black Still Stuka. I was stunned to see it happen since I had just been looking at it when you were flying it in the speed cage. Warren wanted me to post a photo on here of the tail feathers on his shop wall but I didn't have the heart to do that to you (yet!). I'll talk with Eric when he gets back from his Mexican vacation in a few days.
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The flaps issue is not easy to solve. Half of the people want them, the other half don't. In keeping with the simple idea, I decided no flaps. Come on guys, how long would it really take you to whip up a non-flapped model for this?
That's tellin um!!!! mw~
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Great idea Clint for this event.
So a Flight Streak with or without flapps should be perfect, since you wrote in "5. Models- Can be full fuse or profile of any size. Flapped or un-flapped designs OK". So flapped designs should be a non issue.
Roger Greene
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Hey Clint, is this just a ruse to give Heman a place to fly his 1/2 A's? LL~ LL~ Sounds like fun, I'll have to start a search for 25. Hey, would you allow an old worn out .29? Just kidding.
See ya later.
Brian
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Great idea Clint for this event.
So a Flight Streak with or without flapps should be perfect, since you wrote in "5. Models- Can be full fuse or profile of any size. Flapped or un-flapped designs OK". So flapped designs should be a non issue.
Roger Greene
I think "non-issue" in all senses of the word - if they provide no clear advantage there's no reason to ban them! Mine will probably be sans flaps but now you can have 65% "Systrema"s, Trivial pursuits, and Divas. I think the world needs such things.
Brett
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I think "non-issue" in all senses of the word - if they provide no clear advantage there's no reason to ban them! Mine will probably be sans flaps but now you can have 65% "Systrema"s, Trivial pursuits, and Divas. I think the world needs such things.
Brett
If "someone" wanted to build a 65% Infinity would you mind suggesting the most appropriate moments and areas?
Eliott
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I think "non-issue" in all senses of the word - if they provide no clear advantage there's no reason to ban them! Mine will probably be sans flaps but now you can have 65% "Systrema"s, Trivial pursuits, and Divas. I think the world needs such things.
Brett
Yup, that's what the masses dictated. So that's what it going to be. Pretty much any single engine design you can think of. Flaps or not. Profile or not. Monoplane or not. Just remember it has to use a STOCK side exhaust .25 and a 9" prop.
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I was wondering about the Fox .25 Sch. engine...side OR rear exhaust. Uh, could I run two 9" props on it? ??? Steve
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I was wondering about the Fox .25 Sch. engine...side OR rear exhaust. Uh, could I run two 9" props on it? ??? Steve
Funny you should mention that engine. It's the one I'm going to use in MY Stunt .25 plane. (in the side exhaust version, of course.) I have a .19 size of the same engine but Fox doesn't make it anymore.
But to answer your question, one prop only, Steve!
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Yup, that's what the masses dictated. So that's what it going to be. Pretty much any single engine design you can think of. Flaps or not. Profile or not. Monoplane or not. Just remember it has to use a STOCK side exhaust .25 and a 9" prop.
Stock side exhaust NO LARGER than a 25 and NO LARGER than a 9" prop, right?
Limiting it stock engines and a 9" prop is an absolute master stroke, and an unmatched public service. It actually helps people despite themselves - since most of the stock engines run FAR better than the super-trick modified engines. It particularly helps anybody who thinks Dremel tools are a reliable hop-up tool for stunt. The 9" prop pretty much guarantees that they will run it in the mode where you get the most reliable high performance. They won't be trying to chug around at 8000 rpm, or if they do, they better make the airplane about the size of a 1/2A. There's also probably only a marginal improvement possible over a $1.74 APC regardless of the money spent. Almost everybody will have a good run unless they REALLY go out of their way to screw it up.
Because the limits will essentially force everyone to run the engine the way it is intended, I predict the average 25 Stunt airplane will likely fly better than 90% of their "real" airplanes. The more I think about this event, the more awesomely brilliant it seems. Kudos!
Brett
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Stock side exhaust NO LARGER than a 25 and NO LARGER than a 9" prop, right?
Because the limits will essentially force everyone to run the engine the way it is intended, I predict the average 25 Stunt airplane will likely fly better than 90% of their "real" airplanes. The more I think about this event, the more awesomely brilliant it seems. Kudos!
Brett
Yes, NO LARGER engine than 25 and NO LARGER prop than 9". I'll be checking!!
Thanks for the kudos! I like being called "brilliant". :D
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As I understand it, only 9 inch two blade props? Looks like I may have to shrink the Primary Force a bit as it will not perform with a 9 inch prop. Running APC 10-4 on it now. It is a box stock LA .25 with throttle removed and CL venturi/needle valve assembly installed. Or does that make it non stock? LL~ LL~ This event just may get people flying again for the fun of it. H^^
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If "someone" wanted to build a 65% Infinity would you mind suggesting the most appropriate moments and areas?
Eliott
If one took a set of plans to a good copy shop (see that post) and had them reduced to 65%, would they be in the ball park with the numbers???
Brian
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At first I was saying "what for?" but the more I think about it this is very interesting, Certainly less cost per airplane and less cost per flight. Probably a more relaxing atmosphere too. I personally would prefer flaps. Why restrict potential flight performance? (yes this point could be argued, but I won't.)
Since I have always done my own thing in designing, it brings me back to 1961 Willow Grove Nats. My own design "Futura" had an early Fox .25, 47" span. I still have the drawing. This airplane flew very well, even with what we would call small tail surfaces today.My original pencil drawing has wheel pants, but they were not made in time for the Nats.
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At first I was saying "what for?" but the more I think about it this is very interesting, Certainly less cost per airplane and less cost per flight. Probably a more relaxing atmosphere too. I personally would prefer flaps. Why restrict potential flight performance? (yes this point could be argued, but I won't.)
Tom, I have changed the rules to allow flapped models. That's what people wanted to fly.
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Clint,
I new that. I am just supporting flaps.
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Clint,
I new that. I am just supporting flaps.
Oh. Ok. Sorry.
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1st I've heard of this for an event. I really do like the idea. I have a RSM Stuka kit and new LA 25 that may have to mate. Or perhaps my short kit Primary Force purchased by Mike Pratt a few years back. Or maybe a Ringmaster with a OS20 FP I still haven't built. Being undecided sucks. May take a couple of years to make a decision