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Author Topic: "It's only a model" Saturn V  (Read 7436 times)

Offline Elwyn Aud

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"It's only a model" Saturn V
« on: May 01, 2009, 10:05:55 AM »
A bit off topic but still modeling. It's only 1/10 scale but at 36 feet long and 1600 pounds it's a lot of model.

Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2009, 11:54:36 AM »
Pretty impressive, it looks like Muncie too.
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Offline Richard Grogan

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 12:10:15 PM »
Whoever rigged those recovery chutes to the main body really knows what they're doing! Outstanding landing!
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2009, 12:15:41 PM »
Absolutely amazing.  Notice the first stage even landed upright?
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2009, 03:52:20 PM »
Looked a little like Redstone Arsenal to me?
But what do I know, probably nothing at all.

Jim Pollock   ???

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2009, 04:01:46 PM »
That is insane!!!  what a landing also  H^^
Matt Colan

Offline proparc

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2009, 04:06:06 PM »
This is so outstanding, I can't believe it!! These people are some serious engineers. The execution was flawless. Thanks for that one big time!!
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Richard Grogan

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2009, 05:11:47 PM »
I wonder if these guys needed to get a FAA permit or such to launch this monster?
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2009, 06:05:29 PM »
I wonder if these guys needed to get a FAA permit or such to launch this monster?

    Yes. And the launch site was in Maryland.

    Brett

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2009, 10:55:30 PM »
Model rocketry is EXTREMELY well regulated, with substantial engineering knowledge needed and many exams to proceed to higher flying, larger model rockets, though calling this thing a "model" really begs the question. You can be sure the team responible for this project is at the highest level of knowledge and certification. Much more regulated than any model airplane discipline, and for good reason when you are launching projectiles thousands of feet into the sky at near supersonic speeds. Don't know if speed of sound has been exceeded by "model" rockets or if it is allowed. Bet Brett knows the answer.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2009, 11:35:09 PM »
Don't know if speed of sound has been exceeded by "model" rockets or if it is allowed. Bet Brett knows the answer.

   Oh, certainly! Not at all uncommon, the hard part has always been to prove it. It was quite a trick in the late 60's-early 70s, and we had a few we thought *may* have done it in the early 70's. FSI even sold a kit purported to manage it, although most were pretty skeptical given that it was staged BP motors. It moved right along!  The biggest engine we could get was an F, and it was darn near impossible to get any sort of speed-measuring payload in the model, AND, have it light enough to still have sufficient speed. You can't hear the supersonic "pop" since the angle WRT the ground is very small. People tried color-changing paint that would shift at a particular temperature but it didn't stay fast enough long enough to transfer any significant heat.

    By the way, light weight is important to ultimate speed, most models above a D can pretty easily be built too light for maximum altitude. Too light, and it gets moving fast, but the speed dies off before it gets very high. Like throwing a ping-pong ball. With a heavier model the speed doesn't get as high, but it keeps going. So there's not a lot of motivation to save weight, frequently you need to add ballast to optimize the performance.

   Now, it's almost a trivial issue. Even one of the motors in the Saturn V model, used for maximum performance, is capable of going supersonic quite easily with a substantial payload, like an integrating accelerometer. Actually the passage of the shock wave past the barometer port is kind of an issue, because a barometric switch is sometimes used to deploy the recovery system, and the shock wave pressure can mimic low altitude. Most of the deployment electronics packages contain an "mach inhibit" system that prevents this. Point being, supersonic is so common that they are building it into $30 deployment packages.

   Actually, I am not much of a fan of HPR, and part of the reason is stuff like this launch. Maybe I am just an old stick in the mud, but you could put a rocket to 250,000 feet or more with all that propulsion. It's a neat flight, but seems like kind of a waste.

     I am also far from an HPR expert - Steve Fitton and Larry Foster are much more experienced in HPR than I am. I was an old Modroc competitor, and I finished in the Top 20 in NAR season points at recently as 2000, I think. My last three or four contest-qualifying flights were OOS and some sort of record, with various caveats to invalidate them. Best two were a 35 minute D Dual Eggloft flight (~8:30 timed, seen to land and recovered at ~35 minutes, after flying from one side of Livermore to the other, including right over the top of the Lawrence Livermore Labs (DQed, egg cracked)), and a 20+ minute OOS flight in 1/2A Flexwing Glider, last seen headed west at about 1500 feet and climbing rapidly (unofficial test flight).

      Brett

Offline dave siegler

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2009, 04:38:19 AM »
here is the backstory

http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/2829/30/

the flight was in maryland. 
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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2009, 09:58:28 AM »
Brett, thanks for such a complete answer.

You launched a model rocket OVER the Livermore Labs? That would put you in Guantanamo today, or some black site in Kygyrzstan!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2009, 10:51:35 AM »
Brett, thanks for such a complete answer.

You launched a model rocket OVER the Livermore Labs? That would put you in Guantanamo today, or some black site in Kygyrzstan!

    I think it was in 2003, so I guess not. It was on a parachute at the time.

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2009, 11:57:25 AM »
   Actually, I am not much of a fan of HPR, and part of the reason is stuff like this launch. Maybe I am just an old stick in the mud, but you could put a rocket to 250,000 feet or more with all that propulsion. It's a neat flight, but seems like kind of a waste.

     I may have underestimated. The equivalent total impulse could provide 2000 lbs of thrust for 20 seconds (~41000 lb-sec), which is tremendously more than the full-scale Arcas  sounding rocket (9800 lb-sec). 

    Brett

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2009, 01:06:49 PM »
What is HPR?
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Offline Ralph Wenzel (d)

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2009, 01:27:40 PM »
Just a guess, but HPR might be "High Performance Rocket" . . .

(Too many irons; not enough fire)

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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2009, 01:30:16 PM »
HPR = "High Power Rocketry."

The "1/2A" Brett refers to is a size of relatively small rocket engine, not an .049 gas engine. The 36-foot-tall Saturn V is definitely "HPR' though as Brett notes the altitude reached is not much given the power consumed. Still, WOW!!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2009, 02:14:20 PM »
What is HPR?


   High Power Rocketry. There are three more-or-less recognized divisions of hobby rocketry - Model Rocketry (Modroc, meets the traditional definition from the good old days), Large Model Rocketry (LMR, bigger than the traditional but still not requiring any sort of certificaiton), and High Power Rocketry (HPR, requires certification from a certifying group, Tripoli Association of Rocketry or NAR, National Association of Rocketry).

    Brett

Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2009, 02:44:48 PM »
I bet Albert II wished his rocket had worked as well!
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2009, 02:46:24 PM »
This model was displayed at the Toledo RC Show, April 3-5.  In addition to actual flying, it had good workmanship, too.

The owners mentioned that they had permission to launch in Maryland, late April, which they did!  They also mentioned that permission was granted some time ago and probably would not be granted again under the current regieme.

They were figuring a launch weight of 1700 pounds with 10,000 pounds thrust for an initial acceleration of 5.8 G's (a lot better than the prototype).  There was talk of hitting 4,600 feet, but the video seemed say 2,000 feet.  Maybe they were scaled back?
Paul Smith

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2009, 03:06:50 PM »

They were figuring a launch weight of 1700 pounds with 10,000 pounds thrust for an initial acceleration of 5.8 G's (a lot better than the prototype).  

    Of course the prototype had a lot larger fraction of the weight as propellant - which is why it got to the moon instead of 2000 feet!

    Brett

Offline Robert McHam

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2009, 04:25:57 PM »
Quote by paul:
"There was talk of hitting 4,600 feet, but the video seemed say 2,000 feet.  Maybe they were scaled back?"

True enough on the video it was said "2,000 feet" but that was nearly sixty seconds after the chutes popped!
A moment later it was announced "1,500 feet" as though  they were announcing how far (then) it was from the ground, as it was coming down.

I believe it went over 3,000 feet myself. Not sure how high at this time. I am sure there is a record of how high somewhere.

Robert.
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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2009, 04:26:35 PM »
Okay, for all you Rocket Men out there:




If the links don't work, google "Rocket Man William Shatner" and "Rocket Man Stewie." You need to watch Shatner first to "get" the Stewie version.

Offline Robert McHam

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2009, 05:02:54 PM »
According to the data from this site:
http://www.rocketsmagazine.com/saturn-v-project/launch/
Click on 'flight data'

Max Acc Alt. had recorded data that the rocket did reach over 4,000 ft. altitude.

Click on allthe buttons! there is a ton of photos and information of this craft. Make sure you hit the gallery too!

Robert
Crop circles are simply open invitations to fly C/L!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2009, 05:15:50 PM »

Max Acc Alt. had recorded data that the rocket did reach over 4,000 ft. altitude.



   And even this model made it near Mach .5 (450 fps).

    Brett

Offline James C. Johnson

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2009, 06:32:28 PM »


I am wondering if N Korea is blushing after this marvelous launch .. absolutely spectacular.. this is further proof for the need to advance modeling.. every full scale machine, building, bridge, has it's roots in a a mock up or model.

Did any of you make a Star Trek communicator or phasor? I am still looking for a guy.. David Heilman a great modeler .. and a Star Trek Fan .. he had a scale model of the USS Enterprise with lights.. I was 10th grade.. he was a couple years older .. went to Cal Poly and we never saw him again.. we followed a Ranger 30 all the way to the Mexican Boarder in his moms car .. I think that plane was in the air for over an hour before we lost it..

Jim

Offline Rob Roberts

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2009, 02:58:52 PM »
Here is a link to the club that hosted the launch. MDRA the best rocket club in the world.

http://www.mdrocketry.org/

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2009, 07:27:57 PM »
I'm most impressed that they got it back in one piece.  Getting recovery systems to work on large heavy rocket models has always been the most difficult part of the whole thing.  If you get that beast slowed down to 'only' 80 or 90 mph at apogee, its still a stupendous amount of mass to get under a canopy without things going wrong.  When I actively flew high power, the thing I prided myself with most was getting my models back, and back in one piece.  I only flew *small stuff*, ie no more than 4" diameter by 5 or 6 feet long with max power of a J-700.  Out of many models and many flights, I only lost three: The first a mach attempt that was lost around maximum dynamic pressure due to me out witting myself on the thrust ring assembly, the second because I let my friends talk me into flying the I-65 in a model too heavy for it when I knew better, and my little Loc Graduator was lost because some of the guys at Culpeper got tired of seeing it fly so much and epoxied the nose cone on when it was sitting out at the launch rack.  Back when I was flying ('90 to about '96) the failure rate for recovery of big (7.5" diameter or larger) was probably 75% or more.  Huge strides have been made in getting models down since then, as this video shows.  In 1996, if you had the motor power available (which you didn't), I would have bet on a 99.9% chance of a crash instead of a landing.  Bringing your model back was to me just as important as tearing a hole in the sky.
My most recent rocket flights have been on the opposite side of the spectrum, a Semroc Golden Scout on a 1/2 A6-2.  The paint on one wing of a stunt model probably weighs more than that little Scout...
Steve

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2009, 08:04:45 PM »
Back when I was flying ('90 to about '96) the failure rate for recovery of big (7.5" diameter or larger) was probably 75% or more.  Huge strides have been made in getting models down since then, as this video shows. 

   Everything seemed to work on this flight, but I haven't seen much improvement in the recovery systems overall. 25% still seems about right for most of the launches I have seen, and that includes LMR. There are a very disturbing number of lawn darts. That's what alarmed me, and darn near got me pilloried on RMR (along with a similar skewering of Tim Van Milligan when he mentioned the issue). It's one thing with an Alpha (or a Scout, good choice), where even it it does streamline in and hit someone, it's at most a bruise. But launching these models, that are typically built like tanks, into open ranges, with 75% recovery failures, just seems insane to me.

     LMR is almost worse, since they are still built like tanks, but also usually use motor ejection with reloads, which are, if anything, even less reliable. At least for most HPR models, you have altimeter/separate ejection charges, even if they seem to be by-guess-and-by-golly engineering, and almost afterthoughts. I have seen a bunch of LMR models streamline into the blacktop and just chip the tip of the nose off while leaving a 1" deep divot in the pavement. After a couple of these at a local launch, when I was RSO, I just wouldn't let them fly anymore, and it was like I burned down the old folks home. This is in an open parking lot in the middle of Santa Clara, people and cars all around. As soon as I went off-shift, they did it anyway with the next RSO, and sure enough, huge dent in the roof of a pickup (fortunately one of the participants, not a civilian). Granted, we haven't killed anyone yet, but I think it's just a matter of time.

     Brett

Offline Robert McHam

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2009, 08:55:11 PM »
As well as this whole thing went off from begining to end, It looks to me as though there was one chute that did not open as scheduled. There looks to be a drogue parachute for each one deployed and one extra and beneath it what looks to be a chute that did not open.

Like most well laid plans it seems to me that there was adequate area with those that did deploy. Good that there was!

Robert
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Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2009, 11:50:52 PM »
Spectacular, and impressive sound. All I could think about was the thousands of normal sized
hobby rockets that could be flown for the cost. (When you grow up poor, it tends to make you
think that way, even when you are no longer poor..)

It's great the YouTube allows us to capture and view such things, again and again.

And I admire the engineering and management that went into making it such a success.

L.

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2009, 12:19:46 AM »
Spectacular, and impressive sound. All I could think about was the thousands of normal sized
hobby rockets that could be flown for the cost.

   200 lbs of propellant is A LOT of Estes A8-3's!

    Brett

Offline RC Storick

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2009, 06:54:37 AM »
Whoever rigged those recovery chutes to the main body really knows what they're doing! Outstanding landing!

Not too bad for a mechanic ,actually he's a body man, but its all in the same family. I guess its a joy to some to watch a creation work but it would make me sick if I built something and shot it up with no idea how it would end. Just as in Real rocketry it could have been a disaster. I am glad it was a success for his sake. It is a beautiful model.

I think I will stick to control line where I have a handle on it.
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Offline Scott Hartford

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2009, 07:06:25 AM »
Hmmmm,.... Control line rockets anyone??? %^@ VD~

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2009, 07:42:23 AM »
Hmmmm,.... Control line rockets anyone??? %^@ VD~

I think Doug and Steve Moon tried JATO with Estes D12s on a model before, and I doubt very much they are the first.  For awhile Aerotech sold a rocket boosted R/C glider, something that used a low thrust long burning F motor if I recall.

'whip' flying model rockets in a circle with a string tied round the CG was always a time honored way to check stability of the model before launching it the first time.  This prevented some nasty suprises, especially for those who wanted to build a scale model of something. 

And don't worry Larry, no hobby rocket engines were harmed in the making of that video.  The "big" engines are typically a synthetic rubber/ammonium perchlorate formulation, and the Estes stuff is just a black powder formulation.
Steve

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: "It's only a model" Saturn V
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2009, 10:54:15 PM »
I think Doug and Steve Moon tried JATO with Estes D12s on a model before, and I doubt very much they are the first.  For awhile Aerotech sold a rocket boosted R/C glider, something that used a low thrust long burning F motor if I recall.

    I have flown the VectorAero 'Cuda RCRG. It's a pretty high performance model that can use 24mm glider reloads, D' and E's. It's a real hot rod, but it was not that difficult to fly. On the E6, it was pretty hard to *see*, however. The internal design made some very questionable decisions to save tiny amounts of weight, so I redesigned the fuselage and tail boom attachment - and ended up saving about 12 grams over the recommended weight, and the tail boom survived more than two flights.

    None other than the inimitable Gary Weaver also tried a rocket-propelled Ringmaster that also had a transistor radio attached to it. I think you will have to ask him why.

     Brett


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