Author Topic: "Diesels" (Read 7732 times)

Neville Legg · « **on:** February 11, 2009, 11:56:14 AM »

Hello there

I've been given a couple of larger diesel engines, PAW 29's (approx. 5cc) I wonder if any of you had any experience of flying a larger diesel powered model?
I would think they would swing an 11" or larger prop with plenty of authority!!

Cheers Neville

Randy Ryan · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2009, 03:23:01 PM »

Indeed they will, maybe even a 12"

Willis Swindell · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2009, 08:46:41 PM »

Neville

I converted a G 21 ST 29 to a diesel Years ago and used a 12x5 on a 600 sq. in. plane and had no problems.
Willis

Clayton Berry · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2009, 08:58:24 PM »

Yeah, but it still stunk up the joint.

I'd rather smell a skunk. A dead one. Maybe dead a week, just past the fork in the road. Mmmm.

Mixed with the odor of burning oak leaves, and a bit of last week's limburger cheese sandwich in the top center pocket of my overalls. In August. In a '54 International with no air conditioning. Sitting next to my grandmother, who still thinks you need a bath at least once a month. And a cooler full of dead bass between us. Did I mention the pinto bean soup with ham from last night?

Diesels. Gotta avoid 'em.

John Miller · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2009, 09:58:46 PM »

So Clayton, what is it you dislike about diesels?

Garf · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2009, 10:00:21 PM »

I have a PAW .29DS. Not as much power as I thought it should have. I converted a ST G21 35 to diesel. That has some power.

Clayton Berry · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2009, 06:02:40 AM »

Quote from: John Miller on February 11, 2009, 09:58:46 PM

So Clayton, what is it you dislike about diesels?

Ha!

The smell. No kidding. A guy in our club runs them now and then. Hal Howard from Virginia. It's become something of an inside joke. He once bought a half gallon of fuel at a swap meet with me. He was going to take it out to my truck. But, not in the back - he put in the back of the cab of my nearly new Dakota. For several hours. I think the odor lingered until I sold it at 176,000 miles. I just don't like it.

But, as they say, some of my best friends run diesels. Not that there's anything wrong with it...

Paul Smith · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:12:09 AM »

I have to agree with Clayton. Unless you live alone with your diesels, the smell is a deal-killer.

If I wanted to use diesels (and keep my wife), I would need diesel clothes, a diesel car, a diesel car parking place (off site), and a place to take a shower before coming home.

ps: I can live with the daily beating I take for dope fumes.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:07:00 AM »

Diesels is an acquired taste like Pizza. First time I had Pizza I wondered how anyone could eat the stuff. But, the wife didn't like the aroma after testing the F2C planes. I would still fly F2C if it weren't so expensive. Having fun, DOC Holliday

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2009, 12:43:31 PM »

Some time before I bought a gallon of Red Max diesel fuel, I mixed my own. I had heard that the diesel "smell" is actually the kerosene. So, I mixed up a batch using lamp oil, castor oil, and ether. It had very little smell. Of course, the ether is bad, but it evaporates out of clothing and only the lamp oil smell is left. The lamp oil I used had a nice perfume content, and wasn't bad at all.

I still have most of the gallon of Red Max, because diesel isn't something I do every day, and those motors are very economical!

Floyd

Clayton Berry · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2009, 02:59:53 PM »

Nah, everybody likes pizza. Or, as I tell my little tax exemption, every critter likes pizza. Birds, slugs, raccoons, flies, bad huys, good guys...

I don't know what the offensive ingredient is, but I just don't care for it. Raw, or exhaust. Yuck.

Castor, on the other hand, is to be dabbed behind the ears (females) or used as shaving lube for the ol' electric shaver gadget. Or added to the gas in your weedeater if you want to really enjoy your lawn chores.

mike hartung · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:50:33 PM »

Hi Neville, I have a PAW .35 in a Brodak Zero that I built two years ago. I am not real experienced with these engines, but the engine pulls the airplane fine. I have a three blade Master Airscrew prop on it but I can't remember the length and pitch right now. It took me a few tries to come up with a prop that would work. The engine seems to vibrate a bit, but I my not have had the compression set correctly. I bought this engine new and tried to follow the instructions to the letter.It takes a while to let the engine warm up so you can get the compression and needle valve set right. I would burn about a half a tank trying to set it up then pinch off the fuel and top the tank off. The engine would start right up hot and be ready to go. I need to try some other props to see how much of a difference they make. Yes you do need a VERY BIG RAG for cleanup. And do not try to save the rag.Good luck.

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:39:47 AM »

one poster has pretty well hit the cure for the dreaded diesel stink. Go to your favorite craft shop and get some candle scent. If your smart you'll get one that your wife likes. No more offensive smell and your wife will then think that you have a girl friend stashed somewhere. your friends will wonder about you when they get in your truck.
Oh and you only need very little in a gallon of fuel, like 15 drops.
dennis

Bill Heher · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2009, 06:46:23 AM »

Hey Clayton, I see I'm not the only guy that "Loves the smell of glow fuel when I'm mowing".

I use up the old stuff at the bottom of the jug by putting an ounce or so in the tank on the lawn mower or weed whacker, makes a dreary task more enjoyable. Once iIput to much Powermaster GMA blend in my old Lawn Boy 2 stroke- and it wouldn't shut off! Turned the key off and it just kept roaring away- had to choke it to death.

It sure smells better than the neighbors old Mercedes Benz diesel- I call it old smoky- and she is a smelly, rattling, wheezing old German.

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2009, 01:52:36 PM »

Hi Neville,

Pay no heed to the wimps who moan about the smell. I have run diesels for over 50 years and I love em including their delightful fragrance.
I have had many PAW through my hands and none of them was less than very good. A 12 x 6 on a .29 should be no problem. Remember they will happily run much larger props than a 12 x 6, if you back off the compression. Although this may not be a good idea for stunt.
I have heard people knock PAWs. Sometimes people say that PAW stands for P--s Awful Workmanship instead of Progress Aero Works. I heard this so often that I thought there may be a quality control issue. I suspect that it may be all down to the fuel used. Most people mix their own, I suspect diesel fuel is not too easy to find in the US.
Be careful of the kerosene (paraffin to us Brits)that you use. It is not a closely defined substance, consisting of a whole range of hydrocarbons. NOT all suppliers kerosene is equal. If you are disappointed with results then CHANGE the kerosene supplier. You will be amazed at the difference in performance between suppliers. It took me a long time to discover this simple fact!
The basic PAW .29 is a fairly mild diesel, very easy handling, but not the equal in power to the DS varieties. Its still no slouch. If you like the constant speed, piped sort of run, a la OS 40 VF or the FP 20 with BBTU, then you will love a diesel stunt run. Just learn how to handle diesels and you won't regret it.

Try it, you might even like it!

Andrew.

Clayton Berry · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:04:00 PM »

Quote from: Bill Heher on February 13, 2009, 06:46:23 AM

Hey Clayton, I see I'm not the only guy that "Loves the smell of glow fuel when I'm mowing".

I use up the old stuff at the bottom of the jug by putting an ounce or so in the tank on the lawn mower or weed whacker, makes a dreary task more enjoyable. Once iIput to much Powermaster GMA blend in my old Lawn Boy 2 stroke- and it wouldn't shut off! Turned the key off and it just kept roaring away- had to choke it to death.

It sure smells better than the neighbors old Mercedes Benz diesel- I call it old smoky- and she is a smelly, rattling, wheezing old German.

Before I got back into modelling, I was into motorcycles (and wimmin). I was at the racetrack at Summit Point West by God Virginia, and came across this oder. Couldn't figure it out. A few days later, I was visiting a guy that sponsored a racer. A Yamaha TZ 700. 4 cylinder roadracer that was all the rage at the time. Anyway, there we are. Looking at a Truimph TR7 and how to fit a 350 Chevy V8 in it. His wife is mowing. With a two stroke Lawn Boy. And there's that smell...

Bean oil. That's what he called it. It was leftover racing gas that they were running in the lawnmower. Castor.

Weird how an odor can trigger memories. Suddenly I was back in Huntsville and Shreveport and we were flying model airplanes.

I still can't stand the diesels, no matter how wonderful they must be. As to the perfume additive, reminds me of the joke about the guy who put billiard chalk on his hands after a nite with his lady friend. She gave him grief for spending another nite playing pool.

Neville Legg · « **Reply #16 on:** February 14, 2009, 02:35:02 PM »

Andrew,

I too live in England, and have used diesels for about 45 years, I must admit that its the burnt paraffin (kerosene) that smells awful. I love the smell of ether!
My query was, has anyone used one in a "35" size stunt model? And how did it go? I've used 2.5cc diesels in combat and team racers but nothing bigger!
As a side note, did you know that the Oliver Tiger is being re-born in England again! under the watchful eye of non other than Mr John Oliver himself!
I've ordered a Mklll.

Cheers Neville

Garf · « **Reply #17 on:** February 14, 2009, 08:13:40 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Tinsley on February 13, 2009, 01:52:36 PM

Hi Neville,

Pay no heed to the wimps who moan about the smell. I have run diesels for over 50 years and I love em including their delightful fragrance.
I have had many PAW through my hands and none of them was less than very good. A 12 x 6 on a .29 should be no problem. Remember they will happily run much larger props than a 12 x 6, if you back off the compression. Although this may not be a good idea for stunt.
I have heard people knock PAWs. Sometimes people say that PAW stands for P--s Awful Workmanship instead of Progress Aero Works. I heard this so often that I thought there may be a quality control issue. I suspect that it may be all down to the fuel used. Most people mix their own, I suspect diesel fuel is not too easy to find in the US.
Be careful of the kerosene (paraffin to us Brits)that you use. It is not a closely defined substance, consisting of a whole range of hydrocarbons. NOT all suppliers kerosene is equal. If you are disappointed with results then CHANGE the kerosene supplier. You will be amazed at the difference in performance between suppliers. It took me a long time to discover this simple fact!
The basic PAW .29 is a fairly mild diesel, very easy handling, but not the equal in power to the DS varieties. Its still no slouch. If you like the constant speed, piped sort of run, a la OS 40 VF or the FP 20 with BBTU, then you will love a diesel stunt run. Just learn how to handle diesels and you won't regret it.

Try it, you might even like it!

Andrew.

I originally mixed fuel with lamp oil. The engine seemed anemic to me. Then I mixed a batch with bus diesel fuel. What a difference. Then I added Amsol diesel ignition improver. That made the engine easy starting and smoother running. Fuel is everything to a diesel.

Clayton Berry · « **Reply #18 on:** February 14, 2009, 10:29:11 PM »

Quote from: Garf on February 14, 2009, 08:13:40 PM

I originally mixed fuel with lamp oil. The engine seemed anemic to me. Then I mixed a batch with bus diesel fuel. What a difference. Then I added Amsol diesel ignition improver. That made the engine easy starting and smoother running. Fuel is everything to a diesel.

I thought flipping was everything to a diesel. That's what I see people doing with them. Then again, I've seen some vid and even some action at the Nats. Them babies are good in the pits. For only just a few seconds. Amazing,

Am not knocking them, but I still say they have a queer odor about them. I actually own one. An ED Mark 2? 1951? Some red anodizing on it. Sits in drawer.

George · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:51:42 AM »

Quote from: Neville Legg on February 14, 2009, 02:35:02 PM

...As a side note, did you know that the Oliver Tiger is being re-born in England again! under the watchful eye of non other than Mr John Oliver himself!
I've ordered a Mklll.

Cheers Neville

WOW! I have one of his Mk III's that I bought new in ~1958. I'm sure there will be a waiting list...just like there was back then. I got mine in only a month (normally three) because someone up the line backed out when it got to the dealer, who then sent it to my dealer.

It must be something for John Oliver to see an engine he created so long ago come back to life.

Do you suppose he will be making some sort of muffler for it?

George

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #20 on:** February 15, 2009, 01:00:29 PM »

Hi Clayton,

Diesels are odd, in that you don't flip them like a glow, you almost whack them! If you must flip them, then you need a loose wrist joint and you follow through using the weight of your forearm. Its not easy to describe but much simpler to do. Most folk used to glows, can't handle diesel starting! If all else fails then use a starter, but don't get the engine too wet or it might hydraulic, then a bent con rod or worse!

Regards,

Andrew.

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #21 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:54:31 PM »

We started messin' around with a few diesels in Tulsa recently. Tom Martin has a can of Eric Clutton's Olde English Mix Diesel Fuel that he had purchased ages ago but never opened so he figured it was time to see if it was still good(and it was!). Tom has a Tower 40 with a Mecoa diesel head on it that he put on an old plane he got from Ted Snow's estate. It's probably got between 400 and 500 sq.in of wing area. With the Tower 40 conversion it's flying around 5.2 second laps on 68 foot lines. I believe it's turning an APC 11-5 at 9000 PM. I have a little home brew stunter with a MK-17 .09 on that hadn't flown in a few years it so I dusted off and brought it out for a few flights.

George · « **Reply #22 on:** February 16, 2009, 08:33:44 AM »

Elwin,

That's a great looking home brew stunter you have that MK-17 in.

I have one in a Brodak "Flying Clown". The MK-17 is a nice diesel.

George

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #23 on:** February 16, 2009, 12:49:17 PM »

Hi Neville,

I tried to PM you, don't know if it worked! I build light and have flown a Calamity Jane, Palmer Thunderbird and the old Morley Thunderbolt, with PAW 29 and 35s. They were all 35 sized stunters. Both the standard 29 and 35 were just fine. I run them in side winder configuration and this gets rid of the over rich syndrome in tight manoeuvres. Inverted motor can give trouble on tight loops and upright motors give the same trouble in tight bunts.
Where can I order some more Oliver Tigers............................PLEASE! I have carefully hoarded mine over the years and they all get flying time, but the fear of smashing one takes the edge off enjoying them!!

Thanks,

Andrew.

Neville Legg · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2009, 12:40:35 PM »

Hello Andrew and all other chaps,

I do apologize for not replying earlier, but my Apple Imac packed up a couple of weeks ago and I have to wait for my son (son B) to bring a laptop home from college, so there are some gaps in my replying!
You can order an Oliver Tiger by e-mailing tom.ridley@clinthill.co.uk They are making all of the Oliver Mk's including the Mk5! There is about a 3-4 month wait, but its worth it!

Cheers Neville

Tom Martin · « **Reply #25 on:** February 17, 2009, 01:56:17 PM »

I would like expand on Elwyn's post about the Tulsa Gluedobbers diesel flying.
The Tower 40 was well broken in prior to instaling the Mecoa head. It took a few runs to get the settings dialed in, then it was hand started at the run compression. It does require needle changes on different days. It runs like a turbine, smoothly, with no slowing at any time.
Joe Gilbert flew the AMA pattern with good line tension everywhere & a few extra laps on 3 1/4 oz of fuel.
The venturi is .257" which I feel is max for this engine on diesel.
As Eywin said, the fuel is Dr. Diesel's plain bearing vanilla flavor mix. I believe it has at least 30% castor. This fuel smells nice, & the exhaust smells like rose petals. My van smells sweet while the plane is in it. (It has stayed in it for days at a time).
Elwyn's Scamp flys great, & the 09 runs remarkably well on the high castor fuel. Elwyn is a great flyer, but does not compete, choosing to take pictures instead.

Tom Martin

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #26 on:** February 17, 2009, 04:26:05 PM »

Hi Neville,

You need not worry, I already have my order in for a couple of late Mk111 s and a Mk1V, I shall be saving up for a Major and a Cub!

Good Dieseling!

Andrew.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #27 on:** February 17, 2009, 08:36:44 PM »

Tom, does the can say anything about the formula? For sport flying I run 25 parts Oil(Castor), 30 parts ether and the remaining 45 parts is good kerosene. The kerosene was bought at ACE Hardware in a gallon can. Once set, the compression is usually go for sport flying. Just open needle when first starting cold. Count the number of clicks. May have to get my deisels back out sometime. By the way if you use scented lamp oil, which is a higher grade of kerosene, you need to up the oil content in the mix. Like 30 oil, 30 ether and 40 lamp oil. Have fun, DOC Holliday

Michael Boucher · « **Reply #28 on:** February 18, 2009, 12:59:48 PM »

Hi Neville, Thanks for the information on the new Oliver Tigers. I am totally enjoying this thread. Would like to hear more about the PAW 35 powered Brodak Zero. Thanks, Mike

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2009, 06:55:53 AM »

Hi Neville

Just had to add this one. Bob Zambelli PM'd me about a PAW, on I think it was a Brodak Cardinal prototype. He said the PAW was the worst of all the engines he tried on it! After a few laps, the muffler exploded, on restarting the engine, it went for a few more laps before seizing up!
I think that Bob knows what he is doing, he certainly has a lot of diesels! It just goes to show that I go for years without anything but praise for PAWs and next thing is that someone else just has a total disaster with the same marque. Don't blame me if your 29s behave like Bob's!

Best of Luck,

Andrew.

Neville Legg · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2009, 11:19:30 AM »

Andrew,
The PAW range of engines are good 'ole reliable workhorses, not outstanding, or up to the Oliver tiger or Super tigre range, but they are a lot cheaper! I've never had one that didn't run ok, they vary in quality quite a bit though. A bog standard brew I use is, 1/3 ether 1/3 paraffin and a 1/3 Castrol M! Works fine, I add more ether as the fuel gets older, to compensate for evaporation!

Cheers Neville

Author Topic: "Diesels" (Read 7732 times)

Willis Swindell