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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bill Mohrbacher on May 08, 2016, 06:20:43 AM
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In the 70's there was a profile carrier event where engines with BBs or needle bearings were not allowed. I know Fox made special bushed version of the 36Xs for this event.
Were there other CL events where you had to use a bushing engine?
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I think the earliest versions of 'slow' events, combat, rat race started out that way. As usual progressive changes milked the 'slow' mostly out as well as the interest.
Dave
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They got one now called formula Fox or Fox speed. Plain bushing only. The heat generated is amazing.
MM
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I think the earliest versions of 'slow' events, combat, rat race started out that way. As usual progressive changes milked the 'slow' mostly out as well as the interest.
Thus proving that the more restrictions you put on an event, the more that experts will dominate it. The definitive slow rat may or may not have had the plain bearing engine, but it had so much stuff hanging off of it that even I didn't understand what it did. Put on restrictions, and someone will find the loopholes, and the more you adjust the rules to compensate, the faster loopholes will be created, and the more expertise is required to exploit them all. Happens over and over in the "slow" events.
Brett
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I think the current slow combat rules, what I know of them, has dealt with that well -- you just need to clock at the right speed in level laps, and you're done. So you can run anything, as fancy or pedestrian as you want, as long as you meet that one requirement.
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My 1970 rule book lists a plain bearing requirement for profile carrier but does not list slow combat or rat events. My 1976/77 book shows slow combat as an official event and slow rat as provisional, both with .3600 limits but no plain bearing requirement. There was some interest in the plain bearing requirement in the mid-1970s and some clubs may have gone that way, but I don't recall any official AMA events calling for it, other than profile carrier. Like Brett said, place a restriction on an event and people will find a way around it. Case in point, the Big Goodyear event as flown in the Southwest in the 1970s. The Goldberg profiles or a Ringmaster, 9-7 prop, 2 oz tank, no fast fills, shutoff or hot gloves. I don't recall the exact engine specs but they leaned towards sport engines. Next thing we knew, the hot shots were running ball bearing schneurle motors on funny fuels and going 100 mph. So much for a fun event.
Bob in NEPA
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The SLOW events worked well as a second or third event for guys to fly a local contests for fun. They didn't have to invest in fancy equipment or spend much time at it. When things get into specialization then they can't be those second events anymore. We flew a lot of slow combat in the 60s-70s. The rules usually said plain bearing engines, suction tanks, min. two wheel landing gear with ground take offs. Sometimes they even required a semi scale outline or paint jobs. 300 sq. in. minimum wing areas. These contests were a ball and used stuff everybody had. The Flite Streak was about the hottest thing you could fly.
Dave
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Next thing we knew, the hot shots were running ball bearing schneurle motors on funny fuels and going mph. So much for a fun event.
The moral of that story - don't make anything intended for local club fun into a National event! I think that is all that has kept Profile 40 alive.
Brett
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As Brett says, for sport events keep them on local level. The Witchahawks Shoestring rules were on one 8 X 10 sheet of paper.
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My 1970 rule book lists a plain bearing requirement for profile carrier but does not list slow combat or rat events. My 1976/77 book shows slow combat as an official event and slow rat as provisional, both with .3600 limits but no plain bearing requirement. There was some interest in the plain bearing requirement in the mid-1970s and some clubs may have gone that way, but I don't recall any official AMA events calling for it, other than profile carrier. Like Brett said, place a restriction on an event and people will find a way around it. Case in point, the Big Goodyear event as flown in the Southwest in the 1970s. The Goldberg profiles or a Ringmaster, 9-7 prop, 2 oz tank, no fast fills, shutoff or hot gloves. I don't recall the exact engine specs but they leaned towards sport engines. Next thing we knew, the hot shots were running ball bearing schneurle motors on funny fuels and going mph. So much for a fun event.
Bob in NEPA
Thanks for your answer Bob
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I think "Bushing Only" rules were much more prevalent at the local level back in the day. The Minneapolis Piston Poppers, as I recall, flew Goodyear Racing events at the club level banning anything but. Early attempts at "slow combat" also preceded formal rule changes ...
Duke Fox maintained the only advantage ball bearings or needle bearings had over a properly fitted "plain" bearing was in starting friction. As late as 1964 I often used a 1959 plain bearing Fox 29X in combat, and easily outran many ST G.21-.35 powered opponents.
The real test in combat is, what happens if you plant your engine 6" in the ground and need to restart? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess the needle and - more so - ball bearing engines are much more likely to suffer from restarting without a thorough cleaning.
Not that any capable combat pilot would plant an engine, of course ...
Dennis
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Some local 1/2a combat allow plain bearing 0.061 engines, as the BB high performance 0.049, 0.051 are hard to find, and expensive.
The stock plain bearing 061. provide no performance advantage in that event.
I think the slow events regulated the wrong thing.
Speed limit combat has the right idea, put the rules on the thing you want to limit. In that case speed level flight speed.
The old slow combat airplanes are good flying but fragile beasts with problematic hard tanks. Speed limit airplane are tough and easy to work on.
Other slow events were more like $$$ limited events. BB motors were more expensive and not as available as bushing motors.
Why not just limit everyone to 1 propeller? The RC slow combat, mandates a prop fuel and max rpm of the motor.