So, at a recent contest, a former world champion who shall remain unnamed (well, until someone outs him, or people deduce who it was) only did four laps from the point of release until starting the wingover.

Our judges scored him up to the squares, then decided (apparently) that it wasn't an official flight, and stopped judging.

I figure that they should either have judged the flight as if it had no wingover, or given him 10 points for an attempt, scores for all his other maneuvers, and no pattern points.

However, looking at the rulz, I can't tell which one of the above it should be.  Is there a rule somewhere else that I'm missing, or a reading of the rules that makes sense in this case?  What's typically done when a pilot doesn't give the judges the two full laps, and how does that affect the fact that the reverse wingover starts an official flight?

Quote from: Tim Wescott on April 14, 2019, 05:38:47 PM
So, at a recent contest, a former world champion who shall remain unnamed (well, until someone outs him, or people deduce who it was) only did four laps from the point of release until starting the wingover.

   Yes, that takes some real Sherlock Holmes-level reasoning  skills. Very cleverly concealed, this could have been any of the Northwest-based stunt world champions, no real identifying information there.

QuoteOur judges scored him up to the squares, then decided (apparently) that it wasn't an official flight, and stopped judging.

I figure that they should either have judged the flight as if it had no wingover, or given him 10 points for an attempt, scores for all his other maneuvers, and no pattern points.

However, looking at the rulz, I can't tell which one of the above it should be.  Is there a rule somewhere else that I'm missing, or a reading of the rules that makes sense in this case?  What's typically done when a pilot doesn't give the judges the two full laps, and how does that affect the fact that the reverse wingover starts an official flight?

   Loss of pattern points, no other deduction. This is completely straightforward.  It is an official flight since the wingover was performed. I am not sure what "attempt" you are talking about, unless you left some detail out, all maneuvers were attempted and completed. But a lap was left out, it's like any other time a lap is left out, score all the maneuvers and loss of pattern points.

    There is no reasoning that I can imagine from the rule book where it doesn't constitute an official flight. Someone may have been mixing up the 2010-2011 rule change, where the rules had no pattern points, and instead replaced it with the FAI rule. That only lasted one rule cycle.

   I would be very curious what the basis of this assessment was, I could be missing something about it, or you left something out, because it seems otherwise inexplicable to me based on the current rules.

      Brett

   

Quote from: Brett Buck on April 14, 2019, 09:57:19 PM
   Yes, that takes some real Sherlock Holmes-level reasoning  skills. Very cleverly concealed, this could have been any of the Northwest-based stunt world champions, no real identifying information there.

That's right!  Because, you know, you gotta maintain the dignity of the sport.

Quote from: Brett Buck on April 14, 2019, 09:57:19 PM
   Loss of pattern points, no other deduction. This is completely straightforward.  It is an official flight since the wingover was performed. I am not sure what "attempt" you are talking about, unless you left some detail out, all maneuvers were attempted and completed. But a lap was left out, it's like any other time a lap is left out, score all the maneuvers and loss of pattern points.

    There is no reasoning that I can imagine from the rule book where it doesn't constitute an official flight. Someone may have been mixing up the 2010-2011 rule change, where the rules had no pattern points, and instead replaced it with the FAI rule. That only lasted one rule cycle.

   I would be very curious what the basis of this assessment was, I could be missing something about it, or you left something out, because it seems otherwise inexplicable to me based on the current rules.

      Brett

   

Thanks Brett.  That sounds sensible.  I'm going to re-read the rules to see if I'm just not seeing where that's spelled out, or if it really is one of those "oh, everyone knows that" ambiguities.

Fortunately in this case it didn't make a difference in any contest results -- but I wouldn't want to get it wrong if I were judging.

Quote from: Tim Wescott on April 15, 2019, 12:32:04 PM
That's right!  Because, you know, you gotta maintain the dignity of the sport.

Thanks Brett.  That sounds sensible.  I'm going to re-read the rules to see if I'm just not seeing where that's spelled out, or if it really is one of those "oh, everyone knows that" ambiguities.

Fortunately in this case it didn't make a difference in any contest results -- but I wouldn't want to get it wrong if I were judging.

   It is as explictly spelled out as it ever gets. The wingover makes the pattern an official flight. Leaving out a lap does not affect the maneuver score. Leaving out a lap does lose pattern points. It's not ambiguous at all.

     Brett

So what I'm getting here is that if a person only did one lap between a couple of maneuvers after the RW(reverse wingover) he would only lose pattern points?

Quote from: john e. holliday on April 15, 2019, 07:09:52 PM
So what I'm getting here is that if a person only did one lap between a couple of maneuvers after the RW(reverse wingover) he would only lose pattern points?

    Yes, aside from the brief period mentioned (2010-2011, I think), that was more-or-less always how it has been, and it works the same if it it before the wingover, too, unless I am missing something. Some other changes have been made to the pattern point rules over the the last 40-50 years, but not the laps between the maneuvers.

    Brett

Quote from: Tim Wescott on April 14, 2019, 05:38:47 PM
So, at a recent contest, a [pilot] only did four laps from the point of release until starting the wingover.

Our judges scored him up to the squares, then decided (apparently) that it wasn't an official flight, and stopped judging.

I figure that they should either have judged the flight as if it had no wingover, or given him 10 points for an attempt, scores for all his other maneuvers, and no pattern points.

However, looking at the rulz, I can't tell which one of the above it should be.  Is there a rule somewhere else that I'm missing, or a reading of the rules that makes sense in this case?  What's typically done when a pilot doesn't give the judges the two full laps, and how does that affect the fact that the reverse wingover starts an official flight?

The pertinent rules involved here are about the number of laps required between maneuvers and when a flight becomes official.

Paragraph 11. Flight Pattern:  "...doing less than two (2) laps between maneuvers ...will result in a loss of pattern points."

Paragraph 12. Official Flight:  "The flight will become official...when the aircraft turns into the inverted part of the Reverse Wingover."

In this case, assuming the "pilot" turned into the inverted part of the reverse wingover should be scored for the wingover as well as all subsequent completed maneuvers.  This was an official flight since the inverted part of the reverse wingover was performed.  Pattern points would be lost because the mininum number of laps were not completed prior to that wingover.

I do not think we need to get into semantics that since a flight is not official until the inverted portion of the wingover is performed, then how can the takeoff and level flight be judged if the flight is not yet official?  It has long been understood that when a pilot enters the circle for an official flight, his takeoff and level flight is scored.  If for whatever reason the pilot chooses not to do the wingover or in the past "waves off" the flight, the pilot will be charged with an attempt and the takeoff/level flight score is discarded.  (We are not talking about the FAI F2B rules here either.)

Keith

Quote from: Trostle on April 16, 2019, 07:57:00 PM

I do not think we need to get into semantics that since a flight is not official until the inverted portion of the wingover is performed, then how can the takeoff and level flight be judged if the flight is not yet official?

    I actually considered changing that when I re-introduced the pattern points, even briefly considering going back to the hand signal. But I spent way too much time out in the hot sun watching people do 7-minute attempts when they forgot it, so I just left it alone, it's good enough the way it is.

   Brett

Seems to me that the ONLY two times the judges should stop judging are when the RWO isn't done (inverted pullout makes the flight official) OR the safety thong is not attached to the flier. Both would be counted as "Attempts". 

Since the flier might suddenly do a proper RWO after a few "warmup" tricks, or might notice the safety thong dangling and put it on his wrist, then the proper thing for the judges to do would be to watch for either of those things to occur.

I've seen both happen in a contest. Howard forgot to do his RWO at the Evergreen Aviation Museum contest, and another time, somebody didn't attach his safety thong to his wrist. Can't recall who. Otherwise, just keep being judgmental!    Steve

Quote from: Steve Helmick on August 28, 2019, 01:01:15 PM
and another time, somebody didn't attach his safety thong to his wrist. Can't recall who. Otherwise, just keep being judgmental!    Steve

Chasing down the consequences of flying without putting on the safety thong takes you all over the place in the rule books.

First: Paragraph 12 of the Control Line Aeorbatics 2024-2025 says: "The flight will become official either when a foul occurs per General Paragraph 9 or when when the aircraft turns  into the inverted part of the reverse wingover."

Then Second: Paragraph 9 of Control Line General says: "For precision aerobatics, any foul defined in these regulations happening between when the model begins a takeoff and when the model comes to a stop shall result in the flight being official and receiving a zero score."

Then Third: Paragarph 4 of Control Line General says: "Failure to use a safety thong in those events for which they are required shall constitute a foul."

So, if I am understanding the rules correctly, a pilot who takes off without the safety thong around his wrist has committed a foul per Paragraph 4  of the General Control line rules.  The consequences from Paragraph 9 of the General Control rules is that the pilot is charged with an official flight and that official flight receives a score of zero.

Joe Ed Pederson

Yup. In the case of taking off with a non-attached safety thong, I wouldn't be scoring any maneuvers, even if it was attached after takeoff, during the flight. Foul, charged with an attempt, zero for the round.

A good pitman wouldn't launch the plane without the safety thong attached to the wrist, even if the flier signals to release. Shut it down and go down two in the flight order...he'll thank you for it...or should.  Steve

Quote from: Steve Helmick on August 15, 2024, 02:27:29 PM
Yup. In the case of taking off with a non-attached safety thong, I wouldn't be scoring any maneuvers, even if it was attached after takeoff, during the flight. Foul, charged with an attempt, zero for the round.

A good pitman wouldn't launch the plane without the safety thong attached to the wrist, even if the flier signals to release. Shut it down and go down two in the flight order...he'll thank you for it...or should.  Steve

I agree that a good pitman wouldn't launch and the whole "launching without the thong on the pilot's wrist" is highly unlikely to happen.  I agree that none of the maneuvers should be judged.  I agree it would not erase the foul even if a pilot could manage to get the thong on during the flight.

BUT the flight is NOT to be charged as an ATTEMPT. 

Because of the foul of taking off without the thong around the pilot's wrist, the flight is charged as one of the pilot's OFFICIAL flights (see again Paragraph 12 of Control Line Aerobatics 2024 and 2025, and Paragraph 9 of Control Line General 2024 and 2025) AND that official flight will be given a total score of zero.

Joe Ed Pederson

Um, I wrote "attempt" and "zero for the round", so that is done. The guy with the foul...whatever it is...still has two attempts for the 2nd round as I see it. Unless that WAS the 2nd round.  Steve

Quote from: Steve Helmick on August 16, 2024, 06:15:27 PM
Um, I wrote "attempt" and "zero for the round", so that is done. The guy with the foul...whatever it is...still has two attempts for the 2nd round as I see it. Unless that WAS the 2nd round.  Steve

Yes, that is how I read it as well.

I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

My apologies.

Joe Ed Pederson

Quote from: Steve Helmick on August 15, 2024, 02:27:29 PMYup. In the case of taking off with a non-attached safety thong, I wouldn't be scoring any maneuvers, even if it was attached after takeoff, during the flight. Foul, charged with an attempt, zero for the round.

A good pitman wouldn't launch the plane without the safety thong attached to the wrist, even if the flier signals to release. Shut it down and go down two in the flight order...he'll thank you for it...or should.  Steve

Trying to attach a wrist strap while flying would be more dangerous than flying out the flight without it.  If this happens, the judges should just charge an attempt and take a break.

It appears as if the word "attempt" is being thrown around loosely. It clearly states that the thong infraction is a foul, and the result is that it counts as an official flight with a zero score. That's your score for the round. You don't get another try in that round, which is what it means if the flight is designated an "attempt".

By the way, you also get a zero, not an attempt, if parts fall off the model in flight, such as wheels, battery hatches, tip weight box lids... This is per CL General Paragraph 7, SAFETY RULES.

I can't remember who told me to count laps on takeoff(6) and inverted(7) out loud and start the maneuver on the count.  Helps calm the butterflies that we all deny having and the extra lap is a safety net.  As a CD I can't see this as an issue.  I can nit-pick rules with the best of them, but this was black and white.  It was two separate issues.  Official Flight-Check.  Lost pattern points-check.  Getting an attempt because the judges screwed up is not right.

Ken

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on September 02, 2026, 07:24:09 AMGetting an attempt because the judges screwed up is not right.

In every aspect, judge failures should not penalize the pilot. In Howards case where they threw out 1/3 of the scores for him and not every one else is a totally bad call. He should have been moved to the end of flight order and allowed to re-fly his flight. The same when the judges stop scoring as the result of misunderstanding. The basic contest procedure is for each contestant to fly in front of the same jury of judges. The judges job is to score presented maneuvers. The CD / chief judge's job is to make the rules calls. If I were seriously actively competing, I would submit a rules change to correct this. I'm not so it's up to a regular to take the lead.

Quote from: Mark wood on September 02, 2026, 10:25:10 AMIn every aspect, judge failures should not penalize the pilot. In Howards case where they threw out 1/3 of the scores for him and not every one else is a totally bad call. He should have been moved to the end of flight order and allowed to re-fly his flight. The same when the judges stop scoring as the result of misunderstanding. The basic contest procedure is for each contestant to fly in front of the same jury of judges. The judges job is to score presented maneuvers. The CD / chief judge's job is to make the rules calls. If I were seriously actively competing, I would submit a rules change to correct this. I'm not so it's up to a regular to take the lead.

The judges should score every maneuver presented to them.  If there is an issue it should be resolved AFTER the flight by the CD.  If stopping was the wrong call by the judges he should be awarded a reflight and not charged with an attenpt.  If the ruling was a foul he gets a zero but it was a pattern points issue how are you going to award a score unless the judges scored the remainder?

Ken

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