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Author Topic: Fly by wireless  (Read 48468 times)

Offline Gus Urtubey

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Fly by wireless
« on: August 12, 2015, 01:58:31 AM »
Gus
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 09:00:23 AM by Gustavo Urtubey »

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2015, 05:09:11 AM »
That sounds really cool for sport flying and building. It sure would make for some hair-pulling rules discussions in Stunt, Carrier and all the other CL disciplines.
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2015, 07:59:01 AM »
I think the rules already address how control surfaces can be moved. It requires that the control input is through the control lines. The surfaces can be moved by either hard linkage or servo's as long as the control signal/command comes from movement of the control lines. It doesn't matter if that signal goes through pushrods, wires, radio signal or fiber optic as long as the input come from movement of the control lines.

The use of servos for control surface movement actually is interesting in that it could allow some new and interesting designs where you don't have to have straight line hookup of the surfaces to the bellcrank. Drawback is the added weight of servo and battery, but still could be fun for some.

Best,     DennisT

Offline phil c

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 08:46:24 AM »
One of the big reasons some people like C/L  is that you can feel what the airplane is doing.  Without force feedback, or a lot on internal sensing in the electronics, the pilot won't be able to respond to what the plane is doing. 
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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2016, 10:38:21 PM »
One of the big reasons some people like C/L  is that you can feel what the airplane is doing.  Without force feedback, or a lot on internal sensing in the electronics, the pilot won't be able to respond to what the plane is doing. 

I agree.  Besides the romantic part that Phil mentioned, I think it would be very difficult to relearn how to fly precise maneuvers with out the aerodynamic resistance on the controls.

Offline TigreST

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2017, 10:04:45 AM »
.......... I think it would be very difficult to relearn how to fly precise maneuvers with out the aerodynamic resistance on the controls.

 :!You would not have to worry about "relearning" anything...there will be a "ap for that".   Stand in the middle of the circle hold onto to a single line attached to the middle of your handle. Open the ap on your cell phone.  Push the go button,...then just move about to allow the application to fly your pre-programmed pattern for you. 

 


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Online John Rist

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2017, 09:39:38 AM »
I have flown scale ships that that have the elevator controlled by a servo.  The feel at the handle is not a lot different.  The reason for the set up was that it was a large scale model built from a converted RC kit.  It flew great but it was lead sled. This is OK for scale but not so good for stunt.  On top of all that as I read it scale rules no longer allow elevator control by a servo.  All other functions are ok.  I don't see any future for servo controlled flight surfaces in stunt.  Sport flying is another thing.  I have wanted to build a RC controlled model that is tethered by a mono line attached to a chest harness.  It would have active ailerons and rudder.  could make for some interesting maneuvers. 
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Offline phil c

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2017, 05:39:47 PM »
One area where this could be really helpful is in trimming.  Got a bit of a roll, trim it out.  A bit twitchy, slow the elevator response and/or travel a little.  Rabe rudder causing trouble, reduce movement and/or travel.  You could trim almost anything related to the controls in one or two flights.  Add a moveable trim weight and you could even trim the CG.

As Brett has pointed out many times though, once the system is built there is no practical way to prove that it isn't acting as an autopilot of sorts to smooth out maneuvers, minimize over control, control the engine run which is already allowed in electric(very bad decision that ).
phil Cartier

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2017, 12:13:34 AM »
As Brett has pointed out many times though, once the system is built there is no practical way to prove that it isn't acting as an autopilot of sorts to smooth out maneuvers, minimize over control, control the engine run which is already allowed in electric(very bad decision that ).

    I agree on the autopilot, but not the engine/motor. I see nothing being done in electric that couldn't have been and has been done on engines, and the reliability is (somewhat to my surprise) similar.  Igor's feedback system effectively accomplishes the same thing, more-or-less, that Aldrich was trying to do with a Fox 35, Big Jim was trying to do with the ST60, and Hunt/Pappas did with the tuned pipe.  In fact, even after thinking about how to improve on it on IC engines using electronic feedback control for something like 45 years, I still can't see a way to do better than I am doing with a pipe and an Eather prop.

     I still routinely see the same sorts of problems with electric setup that I see all the time with IC setup, for many of the same reasons. Many people set their controller up with FAR more response that they should, because it makes the feel like heroes when it pulls their arms off in the corners. Unfortunately, it also makes the airplane much harder to fly than it would be otherwise.

    Every successful stunt power system since about 1950 has had very similar characteristics, I am not at all hung up on finding another way to do the same thing.

      Brett

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2017, 07:56:07 AM »
:!You would not have to worry about "relearning" anything...there will be a "ap for that".   Stand in the middle of the circle hold onto to a single line attached to the middle of your handle. Open the ap on your cell phone.  Push the go button,...then just move about to allow the application to fly your pre-programmed pattern for you.
:) I have to agree with you .... considering I was born in the era of party lines and hand cranked wall mounted telephones, the design, production and addition of a whole set of as yet undesigned sensors opens the imagination to another realm of possibilities and yet stay within the "ol' skool" but still current rule requiring the elevator to be directly controlled by the lines.  For example, the USMC CV-22 Osprey .... imagine direct elevator control as per the rules but sensors on the elevator trim, movable ailerons and rudder to compensate for slack lines or to ease the tension for certain conditions, sensors to detect and compensate for any mismatch in throttle rpm, sensors to ensure rotor rpm for transition from hover to forward flight and back to hover, weight-on-wheel sensors to allow low and hi-speed taxi, and best of all pre-programmed sensors to detect a specific point during the performance where it taxies to full stop, engine to idle, brakes applied for full stop, cargo doors open, a pallet gets shoved out, door closes, then the engines spin up for taxi to takeoff.

Silly??  Maybe .... but in the words of Napoleon Hill “Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve.”

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 10:36:46 AM »
We have been flying with 2.4 Ghz now since 2013 and you are not limited to just one receiver. You can drive multiple receivers with the same transmitter.

Let's say you have a complex model that has features in both the fuselage and the wing, you can have a receiver in the wing and one in the fuselage. In my case the model will be electric powered with the BEC power feature. All I have to do is run a power wire from the 1st receiver to the 2nd receiver. Instead of having 3 or more servo connections between the wing and fuselage I will only have one which is the power connector.

Another application is an electric powered twin that uses BEC, each nacelle would get a receiver and command only one motor, but they both as a team control the throttle on the twin. You could run a Y-harness between one receiver to command both ESC's but you have to make sure that you cut the red wire on one ESC so that only one feeds power to the receiver with the BEC.

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Offline George Fruhling

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2022, 02:09:24 PM »
I have flown scale ships that that have the elevator controlled by a servo.  The feel at the handle is not a lot different.  The reason for the set up was that it was a large scale model built from a converted RC kit.  It flew great but it was lead sled. This is OK for scale but not so good for stunt.  On top of all that as I read it scale rules no longer allow elevator control by a servo.  All other functions are ok.  I don't see any future for servo controlled flight surfaces in stunt.  Sport flying is another thing.  I have wanted to build a RC controlled model that is tethered by a mono line attached to a chest harness.  It would have active ailerons and rudder.  could make for some interesting maneuvers.

I don't see the advantage of a tethered radio control model.  None of the feeling of being connected to the model and few of the advantages of RC. 

Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2022, 01:09:12 PM »
This thread hasn't been awake for a while but I am working on something like this. It's a Potentiometer mounted in the center of the bellcrank. It will feed the signal to a Adafruint control board. This then will control the flaps. The elevator could be either be controlled by a servo or pushrod. By using this configuration you can have the flaps follow a linear path same as the elevator or alter it to respond on a curve. This way the flap can move 0 at the early elevator input and increase as the elevator nears maximum, simular to Igor's logarithmic control linkage. Another advantage is the flaps don't have to be 90 degrees to the fuselage. It will allow a wing with the flaps at any angle you want to design. As far as feel of the control surface it will still be there as the elevator is still directly connected to the bell crank. Although I'm not too sure that it would be very different if you opted to go with a servo on the elevator as well as the flaps. I will post a thread about it in more detail when I have the bell crank milled with the potentiometer mounted. I also need to have the code for the board finished. if anyone is interested in this I can make it available.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2022, 07:49:41 PM »
By using this configuration you can have the flaps follow a linear path same as the elevator or alter it to respond on a curve. This way the flap can move 0 at the early elevator input and increase as the elevator nears maximum, similar to Igor's logarithmic control linkage

Actually that is opposite of Igor's but similar in that the flaps move at a varying rate vs the elevator.  Since this rate can be programmed and adjusted it opens a lot of interesting possibilities, if only it were legal under the rules.  Most of the control pressure you feel at the handle comes from the flaps so I think it would take a lot of getting used to.

Ken
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Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2022, 10:36:37 AM »

Actually that is opposite of Igor's but similar in that the flaps move at a varying rate vs the elevator.  Since this rate can be programmed and adjusted it opens a lot of interesting possibilities, if only it were legal under the rules.  Most of the control pressure you feel at the handle comes from the flaps so I think it would take a lot of getting used to.

Ken
Your right it is opposite the way I wrote it. I should of stated it differently. But the curve could be adjusted either way. I would like to read the rules more carefully as my understanding is that servo control is legal as long as it is controlled by the bellcrank. This would be the case. The rate at which the servo moves is directly related to movement of the bellcrank it can be increased or decrease by the control board but this is the same as if it were done mechanically by varying the length of the control arm. There is no autopilot or course correction involved. I'm sure it you're probably right as to it not being legal, but I'm not sure how you would be able to control a servo without a control board. The only difference is the rate being linear or expotential. Guess I need to look up the rule book.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2022, 02:18:56 PM »
Your right it is opposite the way I wrote it. I should of stated it differently. But the curve could be adjusted either way. I would like to read the rules more carefully as my understanding is that servo control is legal as long as it is controlled by the bellcrank. This would be the case. The rate at which the servo moves is directly related to movement of the bellcrank it can be increased or decrease by the control board but this is the same as if it were done mechanically by varying the length of the control arm. There is no autopilot or course correction involved. I'm sure it you're probably right as to it not being legal, but I'm not sure how you would be able to control a servo without a control board. The only difference is the rate being linear or expotential. Guess I need to look up the rule book.
As much as I love this idea, here is the rule:

2.7.1.
The input from the pilot to the aircraft shall be solely via mechanical
movement of the control line or lines, with only the exceptions noted in
Paragraph 2.6. The movement of any aerodynamic control surface shall
be implemented only using mechanical linkages from the control lines.
There shall be no electromechanical actuators (servos, motors, etc.) that
in any way directly affect movement of any control surfaces or otherwise
affect aerodynamic changes by electromechanical means.

Ken
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Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Fly by wireless
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2022, 04:05:57 PM »
Thank you that is exactly what I was looking for. Takes a little wind out of my sails. But I still will proceed. Not going to compete with this next ship anyway.


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