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Author Topic: Why do lap times speed up during flights?  (Read 1555 times)

Offline walterbro

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Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« on: June 25, 2008, 04:04:41 PM »
I have been flying my twin Polyampa2 finding the best prop ,trimming the round 8's,&
getting the best line lengths for performance during the last 2 weeks. I am keeping a
notebook and one thing is puzzling me. My lap time after 5 laps is always slightly
slower than the lap speed just prior to the cloverleaf. This is a good thing but I do not understand why. For example 5.0 sec after 5 laps turns into 4.9 sec prior to cloverleaf. I am using CC-35 ESCs and one zigras timer that does not have a voltage
compensation feature.
    Has anybody else had this same thing happen on every flight?

 Just curious as this is not a problem !

 Walt

Alan Hahn

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2008, 07:06:31 PM »
You are using the governor? If so I can't see how it is speeding up. I could imagine it slowing down if your battery was running down and going below the voltage needed to maintain a constant rpm. But not speeding up.

My setups have been pretty constant--although inverted flight is 0.1 second faster than upright. I attribute this to the apparent fact that my plane trim is more efficient inverted than upright. Takes less power too (just a little less).

Offline dave shirley jr

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 07:17:58 PM »
not being an expert on electric stunt but knowing a thing or two about motor control.
i would attribute that to temperature changes in the motor windings. a very small resistance change could be throwing off the govenor.
I'm not sure how the govenor is sensing speed but i would assume it is thru winding current since there is no external encoder or tachometor like we use in industrial controllers.
as far as the inverted vs upright speed difference how about a battery shim, lower should richen it up ;D
Dave jr.

Alan Hahn

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2008, 07:39:18 PM »
The ESC knows exactly the rpm (for a brushless motor) since it has to do the commutation itself. The only issue is how it corrects for different loads.
A long term speedup makes no sense--if you are using governor mode. At least not to me! n~

Offline Steve Scott

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 08:48:29 PM »
Ambient temperature could have somthing to do with it.  If you fly LiPo batteries they don't perform that well in cold temps.  As the cells warm up you get more "oomph".

Alan Hahn

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 10:44:17 AM »
Again the governor should account for this--but maybe Walt isn't using a governor mode.

The other off the wall possibility is that the throttle/timer control is setup to increase the throttle over the flight. Normally (or almost always) that feature isn't used with the governor mode. I do use it in my 1/2A when I don't use a governor to compensate for the dropping battery voltage. Of course it isn't perfect compensation, so it might overcompensate (or under) depending on how you setup the throttle rise.

Just a guess!

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 03:32:05 PM »
Here's a stretch:

If you are using a governor, would it tend to balance the speed side to side?  In other words. if both motors were perfectly synchronized and ran EXACTLY the same speed static, then when flying the circle the inboard would be pulling ahead and the outboard dragging a little because of the difference in circle radius.  Could the governor actually compensate for the slightly different (faster) speed need to fly the larger radius?

That would NOT answer why it does not happen in the first 5 laps though.
Denny Adamisin
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Offline walterbro

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2008, 04:31:27 PM »
Yes I am using Heli High gov. mode and it seems to work the entire flight. In reading
all of your comments, the one that might be responsible is the heat or warm up factor.
The ESCs warm up so do the motors and batteries. I was told last year at the NATs
by E-flite engineers that the motors and batteries really don't reach their best efficiency until a much higher temp than I like to run. Currently I am using 68-70% of
the battery rating and the temp ranges from 116 degrees to 124 degrees F.My ESCs are mounted in the nacelles and have fair cooling. I also noted the same speed up on my single motor NAKKE with an AXI2828/10 with same batterys EVO lite 14.8v 4270MAH.

Walt   
 

Alan Hahn

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2008, 07:53:54 PM »
Walt,
my CC Phoenix 35 has been a faithful 8100 rpm from 40o to 90o ambient, with the battery going from about 70o to 130o (from looking at an inflight data recorder). It is counting the magnets as they rotate by. I don't see how they could be speeding up

What timer are you using? If it is a JMP-2 or Ztron, are you sure you have the same throttle setting for both the beginning and end settings?

Offline walterbro

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2008, 06:09:20 AM »
Alan
I am using a ztron it is an older version with a pot. It does not have a voltage comp.
feature. It puts out a constant 1.285 ms. However I do use a JMP on my Gemini
twin which I have converted to Heli high Gov. mode. I have noted the same small lap speed increase during my flights. I have not measured lap times inverted,but I will
on my next flights.

Walt     

Alan Hahn

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2008, 07:57:28 AM »
Well it sure is a mystery to me!

Alan Hahn

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2008, 08:06:25 AM »
Well there could be one more possibility.

I have two "identical" CC Phoenix 35 ESC's. I set the newer one up to use on my motor test stand to make some measurements. Using the same JMP-2 timer that faithfully gives 8100rpm on all 14 magnet motors with the , I noticed that the newer one gave a slightly higher rpm (8200 from memory). I attributed that to the fact that the ESC has to convert the pulse width from the timer into a rpm setting, and perhaps the ESC clocks were slightly different--or whatever circuitry is used in the ESC was slightly different. Maybe as the ESC warms up during the flight, this circuitry slightly drifts making the ESC think the throttle setting is slightly increasing. It is also possible the timer/throttle could also slightly drift if its temperature changes. My timers are on the outside of the plane, so they take on whatever that temperature is, and as I note, that has varied all over the place with at most only slight (and unnoticeable to me) rpm variations. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

Or something like that! ;D

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2008, 02:35:53 AM »
How exactlty is the governer set ? is it software that interperts a resistance as a digital number ? Is it a pysical digital number held and compared by bits of a byte ? Maybe it is all just relative to tempature changes in the circuit that causes a fluctuation durinG flight. You could try insulating parts of the circuit that might be getting too cool in flight.

Alan Hahn

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Re: Why do lap times speed up during flights?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2008, 06:29:05 AM »
As far as I know, in the Castle Creation Phoenix line, the ESC uses the pulse length from the timer/throttle to set an appropriate count rate---the ESC counts the magnets as they rotate by the armature. That is why the kV of the motor doesn't matter. As long as they have the same number of magnets, any motor will give the same rpm if hooked to the same controller--within the limits of the voltage available of course. A motor with a different # of magnets will just scale its rpm. Common magnet counts are 10 (the Brodak stock motor and high kV type motors), 12 ("CD ROM" type motors), and 14 (most AXI and Scorpion "standard" motors). Of course I am talking about outrunner brushless motors. Inrunners have a lot fewer magnet poles (2 in one I have).

"Clearly" there is no issue in the counting (because it has to have that circuitry to know when to do the electronic commutation for the brushless motor), but in order to get a rate (=counts/unit time) it does need a clock. Also that clock is used to convert the timer/controller pulse width into a digital value (or equivalent) to make the pulse rate comparison. So my guess is that this clock might be sensitive to temperature changes.


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