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Author Topic: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?  (Read 1230 times)

Offline Larry Renger

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What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« on: September 30, 2011, 12:35:23 AM »
Andy Borgogna and I got into a discussion of what the running magnetic fields look like and how are the fixed magnets set up in an outrunner motor.  After much discussion, we decided we hadn't a clue.  :-[

Enlightenment please?  Especially with some graphics!   BW@
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2011, 08:35:54 AM »
Complicated.  And not necessarily the same from motor to motor.

The one I have on my desk has 12 magnets in the bell and 9 poles on the armature.  Having fewer armature poles than magnets makes it a bit harder to think about, but it can be done.  The magnets are arranged N, S, N, S, etc., so the magnetic field sort of loops in and out and in and out of those magnets.  The windings are arranged so that the pole pieces on the armature are wound with winding A, then B, then C, then A again, etc.

I don't have any pictures, but basically the way it works is that in operation the ESC will put power on two out of the three wires to the motor; this energizes one coil fully and puts half voltage on the other two, and gives the armature the appearance of having six magnetic poles.  These will try to line up with six of the 12 magnets in the bell, and the motor will turn.  The ESC uses the voltage present on the remaining wire to decide what to next, and based on that it switches what power is going where on the three motor wires.

I don't know if, without pictures, this is going to get you very far.  I have a very clear picture of how this works, but it's in my head.  Here, let me think it very hard at you . . . -- does that help?  I looked for an explanation on the web and didn't find anything  :-[.

It's easy to tell what the magnet orientation is if you can get access to the bell and if you have a spare magnet or two (like a hatch magnet or a canopy magnet).  It's also easy to look at the armature and count poles -- and the armature poles are always wound A, B, C, etc.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2011, 10:47:47 AM »
Here's an animation.  It's an inrunner, it's got hall sensors, and it's a six-pole armature with a four-pole magnet.  But if you're totally lost on basic motor theory it may help out.  Remember that with magnets, like poles repel and unlike poles attract (it helps to play with a magnet).  The goal of any motor is to do its best to keep a north pole pointed smack in between a north and south pole of the field (that's the permanent magnets), and a south pole pointed smack in between a south and a north pole in the field.  That keeps the torque at its maximum.  Of course, the controller (or the brushes and commutator) have to work to make that happen, and you can't keep the armature pole located exactly -- that's what keeps Castle Creations and Plettenburg in business.

Don't get freaked out by the speed of this animation!!!.  There's little arrows in the picture that you can use to step through it, once you're finished being alarmed by how fast it goes by.

http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/brushless_motor.html

Here's another one, that's better animated, gives you time to think, but is for the same kind of motor:

http://focus.ti.com/docs/training/catalog/events/event.jhtml?sku=OLT111035
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2011, 10:54:18 AM »
Tim
"The ESC uses the voltage present on the remaining wire to decide what to next, and based on that it switches what power is going where on the three motor wires." 

I think I understand what you are saying, is the above statement referring to back EMF from the non-energized coils?  So it uses this information to decide which coils to energize next, I never would have guessed this process.
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2011, 11:21:22 AM »
Andy:

Yes, that's right.  It leaves one wire floating, and watches for the voltage on that wire to cross the half-voltage point.  The voltage in question comes from the back-EMF, and so long as the motor is going fast enough it's quite reliable.

That's why a "sensorless" motor kind of stumbles and starts slow -- it actually needs to start up in a different mode until the processor gets a clue of what the motor is doing, then it can get up to full speed.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2011, 11:25:35 AM »
And it also explains why you haven't read an easy to understand article about it in any modelling magazine. HB~>
Dean
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2011, 11:34:08 AM »
And it also explains why you haven't read an easy to understand article about it in any modeling magazine.
I've thought about it, but I could never see how to achieve the "easy to understand" part.

It helps a lot to grab some nails and one of those 1950's "electronics for boys" books and build a few motors.  But it's still not the world's simplest thing.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2011, 12:09:19 PM »
The magnets are arranged N, S, N, S, etc., so the magnetic field sort of loops in and out and in and out of those magnets  (quote)

This is the part I don't get.  If the magnets were widely spaced the above might work, but they are about as close as they can be assembled. In my experience, when you stick magnets together N-S,N-S  all you get is N---S and if they are in a circle, you don't get anything! With the close spacing,  I would think the magnets would have to be N-S,S-N,N-S to create the pole positions.    S?P
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2011, 01:47:27 PM »
The magnets are magnetized in the radial direction -- ie: the 'thin' way (see the attached
rough sketch), not the 'long' way or the 'narrow' way.  The electromagnets (poles) are also
creating a field in a radial direction, the polarity of which is 'flipped' back and forth by
the ESC, at whatever timing is needed to keep the rotation going in the same direction -
commutation.  The ESC keeps track of what has happened by monitoring the 'disconnected'
phase.



You should subscribe to this Yahoo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lrk-torquemax

It is dedicated to brushless in/out-runner theory.  There are many good references,
links and design threads, links to ESC design and programming, and links to
motor/prop 'calculator' programs.


The following is found at the bottom of most of the Moderator's posts:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOTOR BUILDING FAQs

Excellent motorbuilding articles by Brian Mulder,they cover the all the basics,
a must read:
http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.za/
-> Articles by SouthEasterners.
-> Electric Motors - part 1-5

Do-it-yourself motor homepages, manuals/tutorials, videos, checks and tests.
Thread is active, bookmark it for future reference and subscribe to it:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993 (sticky thread, at top of
subforum)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2011, 08:39:20 PM »
Now that makes sense! Thanks.   :!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2011, 08:53:42 PM »
Ya I agree Larry, you had that figured out on Wednesday.  I assumed the timing of the coil energizing was done based on timing by the ESC.  But the ESC actually tracks the motor rotor position by the back EMF voltage  on the non energized coils.  It all kind of makes sense, I still am not quite sure why one coil is fully energized and two are half energized.  Also what is the relative position of the two half energized coils to the one fully energized.  But it is kind of starting to make sense.
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2011, 09:09:57 PM »
I still am not quite sure why one coil is fully energized and two are half energized.  Also what is the relative position of the two half energized coils to the one fully energized.

Actually I think I was half wrong when I said that.  If the motor is delta wound (which means that the head end of winding A goes to the tail end of winding B, and the head of B goes to the tail of C, and the head of C goes to the tail of A, and each intersection is connected to a motor lead), then what I said is correct.  If the motor is Y wound (which means that the tail end of all windings are common, and the head ends are connected to the motor leads) then only two coils are energized, each with half the available voltage.

In the delta-wound case, the two half-energized coils will have poles of the opposite sense as the one fully wound coil.  In the Y-wound case, the two energized coils will have poles of the opposite sense, and the last coil will just be going along for the ride.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2011, 10:37:00 AM »
ThanksTim, it's be nearly 50 years since I sat through "Servo and motors" class in Air Force Tech school, but I kind of remember that delta and "Y" windings were done for torque and revs.  One type delivering higher torque and the other delivering higher revs, I don't have a clue which was which.  As I said it was back in 1965, so I could have it all wrong.  Is there a standard type of winding, delta or "Y" used in the motors for our application? 

I also remember that there was a way to connect the windings in a servo to servo connection that if you gave one of them a quick twist the other would accelerate to distruction.  We would let it wind up and then shut the power off before windings started to fly off, it was fun VD~.
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2011, 04:10:44 PM »
ThanksTim, it's be nearly 50 years since I sat through "Servo and motors" class in Air Force Tech school, but I kind of remember that delta and "Y" windings were done for torque and revs.  One type delivering higher torque and the other delivering higher revs, I don't have a clue which was which.  As I said it was back in 1965, so I could have it all wrong.  Is there a standard type of winding, delta or "Y" used in the motors for our application?

I don't think there's a standard -- either way is just about as efficient, they just give different Kv and resistances depending on which one is chosen. 

Quote
I also remember that there was a way to connect the windings in a servo to servo connection that if you gave one of them a quick twist the other would accelerate to distruction.  We would let it wind up and then shut the power off before windings started to fly off, it was fun.

Probably by connecting the feedback of one to the controller for another, but that depends on the specific system.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: What the heck are the magnetic patterns in a brushless motor?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2011, 08:50:48 PM »
It would be really nice if some of the manufactureres would pitch in with whatever the heck they are really doing, or maybe some electronic genius dude would deconstruct a few motors and let us know what is REALLY going on.  I think we are getting a better picture of possible scenarios, but probably not what really is the current (sorry) hot tip.   n~
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!


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