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Author Topic: two motor electric C/L model  (Read 2279 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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two motor electric C/L model
« on: December 06, 2015, 06:03:31 AM »
Hello,
Is it feasible to use dissimilar motors in such model?

Say, I will use Cobra 2826/10 and 2826/12 ( KV=930 and 760 respectively).

2826/10 will be used on the inside and 2826/12 on the outside wing.

If yes...how to wire everything in the most efficient way?

Estimated RTF weight: below 7 lbs.

Your comments, suggestions and friendly critique are always welcome.

Regards,
Matt

Offline John Cralley

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Re: two motor electric C/L model
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2015, 06:44:43 AM »
Matt,

Should be no problem since you will be using two ESCs (one for each motor) and a single timer. The K timer that Keith Renecle makes could be a problem. I think it could be attached to only one of the motor wires (to one of the motors) for governing but still control both motors. Maybe Keith will verify this. You should disconnect the BEC supply wire from one of the ESCs so that the timer is feed from only one of the ESCs.

I assume you are using a full fuselage. For running the wires, you should locate the ESCs in the fuselage near the battery (you are planning on one battery I assume). Short wires from battery to ESC is the rule and long wires from ESC to the motor. Therefore, you should run the three motor wires from the ESC in the fuselage to the motors via the wing. For my twin, I made a balsa tubes by wetting 1/32" balsa sheet and wrapping it around a dowel and then cementing the edges when it dried. You would need to build these into the wing during construction. I could pull the wires through the tube (kind of like pulling house wires through a conduit).

Using two batteries (one in each nacelle) would be a option if there is room. This would save the weight of the heavy ESC to motor wires in the wing and only the light timer wires would be required in the wing.

Hope this helps.
John Cralley
Scratch Built - Often Re-kitted!!!
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Central Illinois

Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: two motor electric C/L model
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2015, 07:09:05 AM »
Using dissimilar KV values will make the plane want to yaw if the thrust is significantly different.  I am sure it *could* work, but there will be added complexity that makes me question why try this way.  Twins are already complex enough.

If it were a push/pull arrangement twin this would be less of an issue. 

OTOH the motors could be set to the same RPM, and the ESC have the throttle limit set up differently, separately, so the difference is simply under the hood.  Maybe it can work out fine with just a little more bench setup.

Phil

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: two motor electric C/L model
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2015, 07:51:28 AM »
I think the only chance of success will be to use the Castle Phoenix in "Set RPM"  mode.  This is normally a good idea for twins anyway since there is always some small kv variance motor to motor and Set RPM will neutralize it.  This is not a perfect solution - because you will be operating in vastly different throttle regimes and the dynamic response of the motors & the governors will likely be different.  Castle recommends that you have the motor running at between 70% - 85% throttle setting for best governor performance, seriously doubt you can get BOTH motors in that range unless you are also using different props on each side - please don't go there. 

As for wiring I would opt for separate batteries (actually Castle recommended this to me) but one timer on a Y harness. The Y harness for a battery is HEAVY and adds nothing to the performance of the system.


Ya know Matt, if you are going through the time/cost/expense of building a twin, you REALLY ought to pony up for another motor to match one of the others
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline John Cralley

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Re: two motor electric C/L model
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2015, 10:39:38 AM »
After thinking about this in church during the sermon  >:( ;D I agree with Denny and others. Just get another matching motor. The Castle Creations ESC would be the way to go if you insist on trying to go forward with different KV motors.

As to different props, I once accidentally put a 6 pitch on the inboard and a 5 on the outboard of my twin. Great line tension but not great flights!  mw~
John Cralley
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AMA 52183
Central Illinois

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: two motor electric C/L model
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015, 01:00:48 PM »
Guys,
Thank you for your thoughts.

I will use Keith Renecle advice: "using my timer system with twin motors requires two separate timers unfortunately. You can use a single switch that feeds both timers, but each esc will need it’s own timer. One larger battery will work fine for both motors and would most likely weigh less than two separate ones.

I will also get two identical motors as it makes everything easier.

At this moment I do not know which motors to choose but I would like to stay with Cobra.
Perhaps I should simply buy another 2826/10 or 2826/12 but which one is better?

I hope the answer will emerge when I size the plane starting from the diameter of the propellers.
These are three blade props similar in shape to the Mosquito props.

Cobra publishes the Motor Propeller Data and 2826/10 shows max. continuous power of 830 Watts on 5S LiPo and max. current = 45 Amps.
2826/12 shows 780 Watts on 5S LiPo and max. current 42 Amps.

Assumed span of the model: 65" (scale 1: 6.7 w/r to the actual airplane)
Corresponding, scale like prop. diameter: 12 " (3 blade).

It is important for me to keep the "scaled" prop. diameter.

Cobra 2826/10 (weight: 171 grams or 6.03 oz., KV=930) with MAS 10x5 with 3 blades on 5S, develops 787.5 Watts at 42.57 Amps.
Cobra assigned a yellow range to this setup therefore the prop can be used, but full throttle should be kept to short bursts. (80 to 100% power).    

There is no test data for 12" diameter 3 blade prop. but for sure the current will go up.

Not good.
 
2826/12 does not have the 3 blade prop. data at all.

3525/12, KV=650 shows on MAS 12x6x3 and 5S (18.5 V), 36.17 Amps, 669.2 Watts at 9,509 RPM  but this motor weights 8.92 oz.
5S battery ( one for two motors: 6000 mAH capacity ): ~26 oz. Cobra ESC: 40 Amps ( I have two already ) or 60 Amps: weight per one: ~2 oz.

2 Motors + Battery + 2 ESC + 2 props + wiring + harness + switch + 2 governors + spinners =~ 52 oz.

Painted structure with retractable landing gear: 46 oz. ( quite challenging at this size).

Total: 98 oz.

Decisions, decisions and more decisions.

Regards,
M

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: two motor electric C/L model
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2015, 06:44:07 AM »
Hello again,
I am going to buy two Cobra 3525/10 or 3525/12.
Both can turn MAS 12x6x3 props with acceptable current and RPM (10,807 and 9,509 respectively) and develop enough power to fly the 100 oz. plane.

Comment: each motor develops easily 550 Watts at ~80 % power on 5S battery with this prop.
                Both produce therefore 1100 Watts.
                Taking 100 Watts per pound, the limit weight of the RTF model is 11 lbs.
                The predicted RTF weight is less than 6.25 lbs. so I will be able to fly this thing with ~50-60% power and save the battery.
                 
                It maybe not feasible, though, as the KR governor lower RPM limit is 7,500 and, with 50-60% power setup, the RPM with MAS 12x6x3 prop can drop
                below this limit.

Has anybody tried to file MAS13x6x3 to get 12x5x3 or perhaps the blades will end up too narrow?

MAS three blade props have one huge advantage - price.

I understand it is not feasible to twist the blades after heating in order to decrease the pitch.

Or maybe it is possible somehow?

Thanks,
M   

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: two motor electric C/L model
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2015, 09:00:02 PM »
This sounds like a fairly large aeroplane .
Is it windy where you are .


 S?P

Some fairly solid lines might be necesary . Some 2 Kilo ( 72 Oz. 0 planes could go out beyond 70 ft. easilly .
Might save you being towed down the field or pulled of your feet . ;D

That said my little DeH88 ( 66 span ) is very light & neutral on the lines , so it aint necesarilly so . Though
it might pay to be prepared .

Any pictures ?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 07:17:33 PM by Matt Spencer »


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