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Author Topic: Thoughts On Electric Power  (Read 2183 times)

Offline Dick Pacini

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Thoughts On Electric Power
« on: July 30, 2012, 08:29:22 AM »
I posted this in the ballet thread but didn't receive any response.  Perhaps it belongs here.

"I have a comment about electric power that hasn't been mentioned yet.  Several posters have pointed out the advantage of being able to fly in a schoolyard without disturbing the neighbors.  That is a plus.  I think there is also an element of PERCEIVED SAFETY with electrics.  Not from the modelers but in the eyes of the public.  For some reason, the low hum of the electric powerplant appears tamer than the muffled growl of an IC unit.  Of course, we all know that a prop strike on a hand is the same, regardless if powered by glow fuel or batteries.

Now, that is my opinion, but for a moment, consider that the lower cost AMA Park Pilot license is only available to operate electric powered RC planes that are limited by speed and weight. The Park Pilot AMA insurance coverage is also less than for IC powered models,
("an appropriate level of liability coverage").  This a sign that the AMA regards electric models less of a danger.  Finally, would it be conceivable to grant a Park Pilot License to an electric PA pilot as long as his airplane didn't exceed 60mph or weigh over 32 ounces?  I think this challenge will be brought up in the future."
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 08:59:54 AM »
Dick,
with all due respect, the Park flyer license/insurance has little to do with electrics being perceived as safer,, it has everything to do with the CLASS of airplanes covered. They are very small, and regulated as to weight, and speed,, This limits the energy available to do damage, and therefore limits the liability to AMA insurance. To get a CL airplane in the same class, you are talking 1/2a stuff,,
I see where your thinking is, but I must disagree, our contol line equipment,, at least certainly most of the mainstream stuff, will not fit into the same "energy potential" class that the park flyer stuff does.. so I cannot imagine any way to lobby this into reduced insurance cost for us,,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 10:46:33 AM »
Dick I do understand where you are coming from, but I have to agree with Mark.  I have a couple of small (I prefer not to call them 1/2a) electric control line stunt planes both at our under 32 ounces but to buy insurance just for them and not be able to fly my larger electric planes locally just does not make a lot of sense to me.  We insure for the worst case, not the best case. 

It would be very difficult to make the case to AMA for such a plan.  Remember most of the park flyer's are ARF planes that can be documented  for both weight and size of the plane should a claim be made by taking a picture of the box it came in.  Most of our planes are hand built, how do we document the size and weight?  How do we prove we are within the specifications of the policy?   Anyway that's my two cents.
Andy
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 11:13:56 AM »
Interesting comments guys:

I would propose that Control Line flying was the ORIGINAL Park Flying.  Compared to Free Flight or early RC, CL could be done close-in, in a schoolyard or local park, only requiring a 70' hemisphere of space - most required 60' or less.  Even modern RC Park flyers need more room than that.

Check out Larry Renger's post in the main forum about his new electric trainer.  To my eye this crash resistant CL trainer correlates to the pusher electric RC birds that ignited the original Park Flyer craze.

I think electric power improves accessiblility - it is easier for a newbie to charge a battery and plug everything in than it is to learn how to start and tune an IC engine.  The hardcore CL enthusiast will argue that we don't need people who "buy & fly".  However, we are also NOT in the position where we can afford to turn away any potential participants!

A 2 lb weight limit is very close to a Brodak RTF electric Super Clown.  With a little effort a bird that size could be brought in comfortably under the 2 lb target. The Super Clown is a terrific sport flyer.

I have a 1/2A electric Pathfinder that is under 1 lb, flies well under 60 MPH and is a very credible CLPA machine  Andy Borgogna also has one and his experience is the same as mine maybe better because he has "trophied" with his.  The point being we are not talking about Cox RTF or hollow-logs here, the PF flies like a "real" CLPA bird.  Growing the airplane and its power system to a 2 lb limit would further improve its performance, mainly under less than ideal flying conditions.  

The Horizon PT-19 (full fuselage) is designed to fly either RC or CL.  It is not a hi performance bird but could have been at the same size and weight class.

Rather than focus on the price of insurance, it may behoove use to pick-up on the "Park Flyer" momentum.


  
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 12:10:26 PM »
I didn't intend to focus on insurance.  I wanted to point out that public perception may be that electric airplanes are safer than glow powered planes.  AMA tends to agree by offering a lower policy to park flyers.  I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be hit in the face with a prop regardless what the power source was.

As far as weight, If I recall correctly, at the '73 NATS, Bob Hunt's Genesis, powered by an OS 35, weighed around 34 ounces.  Today, with what Bob knows, I am sure he could build a plane that tipped the scale at 32 ounces.  I believe the 60mph limit could be comfortably achieved.

So, could a Bob Hunt (or others) obtain a Park Pilot's license under those conditions?

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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 02:40:53 PM »
Hi Dick,

I want to comment on a couple great points that Brother Denny offered.  One being aware that we NEED to bring in new "blood".   I would suggest that "someone" needs to put together a very low cost electric trainer that could be mass produced and sold like the Cox RTF were a few decades ago.  Make them available in large grocery stores, hardware stores, big box stores, etc.. You used to see the Cox RTF in all kinds of places!  It would need to include two batteries, lines and handle, RTF.  Just charging the batteries would be all that is needed.  Information about PAMPA, internet forums, and possibly "better" systems and models for moving up to.

Just MY thoughts since going to the local ball field and flying an electric will be less of a problem than unmuffled and even muffled IC engines.

Whomever that would take this on needs to think of it as a "loss leader" type of product.

BIG Bear
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 03:03:19 PM »
I agree with Denny that there is a need for a low cost entry level control line plane that is electric powered.  The plane that Larry Renger designed comes very close to filling that bill.  The power system is basic and gets the job done.  They only thing needed is to remove the receiver and put in a low cost timer.  This plane will not do the pattern, but it can teach the basics of take off, up/down control and landing.  Set the timer for 1 minute flights and any kid could be flying by the end of the day.  Larry already has done the CAD file and the materials are left over plastic political signs after and election. 
Andy
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Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 03:07:04 PM »
That's a great idea.  Do you think the Park Pilot program would ever be opened up to include C/L airplanes?  If the AMA were to get behind this, there could be a coupon included that would give a short term PP membership.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 03:43:09 PM »
I agree with Denny that there is a need for a low cost entry level control line plane that is electric powered.  The plane that Larry Renger designed comes very close to filling that bill.  The power system is basic and gets the job done.  They only thing needed is to remove the receiver and put in a low cost timer.  This plane will not do the pattern, but it can teach the basics of take off, up/down control and landing.  Set the timer for 1 minute flights and any kid could be flying by the end of the day.  Larry already has done the CAD file and the materials are left over plastic political signs after and election. 
Andy

Hi Andy,

I am not talking about a few guys doing this, but instead some company that would take on the role Cox performed in the '60s-'70s.  Those plastic RTF .049 powered models showed up everywhere!  A real "Blitz" is needed to saturate the market with a simple easy to fly model (like Larry's).

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Offline jfv

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 05:31:45 PM »
I have to agree with Dennis.  I just put an electric Clown together for a friend and it came out at 25 ox RTF with battery.  Flew it today for the first time and it flew great.  Fits perfectly into the park flyer class.
Jim Vigani

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 03:53:27 PM »
Has anyone checked to see if the Park Flyer program EXCLUDES C/L models?  I suspect they didn't think of it.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 04:39:24 PM »
Has anyone checked to see if the Park Flyer program EXCLUDES C/L models?  I suspect they didn't think of it.
I just looked at the AMA entry form -- 2 pounds & no IC engines is all that's mentioned.  You're not eligible for competitions under the program, but not word 1 is said about RC or FF or CL.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 08:02:42 PM »
I got Photos!  The three final models are DONE!  We flew the yellow and blue one this morning.  Great flier in me 'umble opinion ( Modesty is only one of my MANY virtues).   VD~ LL~
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 09:38:59 PM »
Big Bear
I talked with Eric Rule at RSM today and he is going to do some testing with his laser cutting equipment to see if it can be used on the plastic material that Larry used in his planes.  If it works out maybe we will see an electric 1/2a trainer in the future.  I know my mentor and "Zen Master" Larry Renger can produce the CAD file needed for the cut.  So lets see how Sunday works out, it will be our first attempt to use the plane in a training environment.  Also lets see how Eric does with cutting the plastic parts.  Stay tuned folks there is more to come.
Andy
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 10:29:21 PM »
Umm, there may be a detail or two to work our here.  See the attached: www.ktla.com/news/local/gayleanderson/  That is the trainer shredding the motor mount in the (2nd, at least) crash.  The nice reporter lady Gaye was flying on her own and made about 3 laps.  We awarded her a flight certificate, as that is farther than most get on the first try.

Y'all come out to the Compton airport at Wilmington and Alondra on Sunday.  Big doin's and lots of training for U/C and (gasp) R/C planned.

The entry is about 100 yards west of Wilmington on the north side of Alondra.  Show starts at 10 as I recall.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Peter Ferguson

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 08:55:22 AM »
"What is a park flyer model?

The AMA currently defines a park flyer as a model weighing less than 2 pounds that is incapable of reaching speeds of faster than 60 mph. It must use electric power for propulsion, be remotely controlled or flown with a control line, and remain within the pilot’s line of sight at all times"

CL is already covered by the AMA this is from their website.
Peter Ferguson
Auburn, WA

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2012, 10:26:53 AM »
Peter
By the definition you posted, you are correct there already is a provision for control line park flyers.  That's good to know.  Thanks for the input. :D
Andy
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Offline John Cralley

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Re: Thoughts On Electric Power
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2012, 11:56:33 AM »
Too bad that the rules do not allow Park license fliers to compete in contests. Seems to me that if a 1/2 A contest was being held then Park fliers should be able to compete (not in speed). It may be an insurance thing I suppose.

I also wonder if a special three day license could not be created so that individuals could compete without being full members. No magazine just the insurance and eligibility to compete. Kind of like a three day fishing license.  ;D

Sorry that I am wondering off the topic.  n1
John Cralley
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