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Author Topic: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types  (Read 2025 times)

Offline Brett Buck

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Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« on: November 03, 2011, 11:48:49 AM »
Does there exist anywhere Thevenin's equivalents for the different battery types and brands? This is somewhat related to the "unexpected halt" question, if the power draw runs the voltage available for the controller low enough to cause it to drop out, it would presumably cause it to reset and then quit. Although I expect that some sort of back EMF spike is more likely. It would be trivial to determine the non-reactive equivalent by test. I don't immediately see an easy test for a reactive equivalent.

   One would expect the smaller the battery, the higher the apparent resistance, so it would seem possible to outsmart yourself and have excess voltage drop, even if the nominal capacity was sufficient for the flight.

   Brett

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 11:50:31 AM »
Yes.
Think approximately 3.7V (temp dependant) and a handful of milli-Ohms per cell.
Dean
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 12:12:26 PM »
Yes.
Think approximately 3.7V (temp dependant) and a handful of milli-Ohms per cell.
Dean

  To first approximation. What I see is a HUGE variation in battery size, and capacity. One would think that the larger or the larger capacity, the lower the intrinsic resistance. And it would probably vary by manufacturer.

  The next obvious question is less likely to have a good answer. The reactive equivalent would presumably be modeled as a gigantic but slow (like a super-cap) capacitor with a tiny series inductance. That would seem to matter given that the back EMF and noise from the motor is going to get filtered to some degree or another by the reactive elements of the battery (and everything else of course).

   Brett

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 12:15:55 PM »
Electrochemical cells, in general, tend to exhibit a characteristic of a fixed voltage (temperature dependent, as Dean mentioned), in series with a resistance that varies with temperature, cell construction, and state of charge.  Again in general, that effective resistance goes up as the charge diminishes -- I believe that the primary mechanism for this is either that the electrolyte gets depleted (as in lead-acid cells) or that the outsides of the electrodes get discharged first, so all of the various ions involved in the battery chemistry have to migrate through the ever-thicker discharged layer before they get to something active.

If you push that model much at all you find out that there's a time dependence -- start sucking current from the cell and the voltage doesn't immediately drop: it quickly goes down to a plateau, then sinks slowly.  Nothing is a nice exponential, and in particular the recovery when you take the load off can take minutes or hours (at least with NiCd cells -- I'm not as up on this new-fangled LiPo stuff as I should be).  So you end up with a model something like this:

Code: [Select]
             ___                   ___
     .-------|___|------- // ------|___|--o------o
     |         Rn    |               R1   |
    /'\              |                    |
   |   |            ---   * * *          ---        Vterm
    \./  Vopen      ---  Cn              ---  C1
     |               |                    |
     |               |                    |
     '---------------o--------------------o------o
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)

Go much beyond this in detail and things get wacky: For the most part the ultimate open-circuit voltage is a constant that depends on the cell chemistry, but severe over- or under-charge changes that chemistry.  Again with NiCd cells I know that the actual oxidization state of the stuff getting plated onto the electrodes changes with significant over-charge, while if you manage to completely deplete a cell of either the plating on one or the other electrode, or the electrolyte, or whatever, then the open-circuit voltage will change (probably permanently).

LiPo's are different: they don't work by plating material onto the electrodes.  Instead, they work by stashing ions into the nooks and crannies of the electrode material -- in fact, one of the (or perhaps the) failure modes of overcharged LiPo cells is that actual lithium gets plated onto the pertinent electrode, and starts reacting with the electrolyte.  There's also some failure mechanism that happens when the cell voltage gets too low (I think that one isn't dangerous by itself, but if you try to charge a cell that's discharged too far then you just plate lithium out onto an electrode, and hilarity ensues).

If you really want to know this stuff, find "battery university" on the web and read what they have to say.  You may also want to find a copy of "Rechargeable Batteries Applications Handbook", published by Newnes.  If I recall correctly, Red Shoenfeld (of "battery clinic" fame) actually had a hand in the writing of this book (it's authorship is attributed to "staff").  It says nothing about LiPo batteries, but after you read it the things you do find on the web about LiPo's will make tons more sense.
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 12:23:03 PM »
  To first approximation. What I see is a HUGE variation in battery size, and capacity. One would think that the larger or the larger capacity, the lower the intrinsic resistance. And it would probably vary by manufacturer.

In general the larger the capacity, the lower the internal resistance, yes.  But a higher discharge cell (i.e. 40C vs. 20C) will be constructed to have thinner electrodes with more surface area.  This reduces the internal resistance at the cost of size and weight (and money), because the wrapping is less efficient.

Quote
The next obvious question is less likely to have a good answer. The reactive equivalent would presumably be modeled as a gigantic but slow (like a super-cap) capacitor with a tiny series inductance. That would seem to matter given that the back EMF and noise from the motor is going to get filtered to some degree or another by the reactive elements of the battery (and everything else of course).

See my previous post for reactive equivalents.  Back EMF from the motor shouldn't show up at the battery as anything other than a reduction in current demand -- actually letting your ESC absorb power from your motor and charging a LiPo battery with it would be Very Bad Style (customers would be dissappointed with their batteries catching on fire, for one thing).  Noise from the motor will get through to some extent because those honkin' big filter caps they put on ESC's are still small compared to the noise a motor can generate (I sometimes wonder if they do anything other than look good -- certainly you have to get the expensive kinds of aluminum electrolytics to get the ESR down, for pretty much the same reasons that a high-discharge battery is bulky and expensive).  But noise from the motor is probably not going to be a huge issue -- brief spikes aren't going to be "noticed" by the electrochemistry; they'll just get absorbed by the effective series resistance in the cells.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 12:51:34 PM »
Electrochemical cells, in general, tend to exhibit a characteristic of a fixed voltage (temperature dependent, as Dean mentioned), in series with a resistance that varies with temperature, cell construction, and state of charge.  Again in general, that effective resistance goes up as the charge diminishes -- I believe that the primary mechanism for this is either that the electrolyte gets depleted (as in lead-acid cells) or that the outsides of the electrodes get discharged first, so all of the various ions involved in the battery chemistry have to migrate through the ever-thicker discharged layer before they get to something active.

   I am pretty well up on the theory - your schematic is probably missing a series inductance, BTW, although it's probably negligible.

   What I am more looking for is the data for particular batteries (whatever data there might be).

   Brett

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 01:15:43 PM »
Figure out where the cell comes from (if you can), find the manufacturer's site (if you can), and look for a discharge curve (if you can).  If I seem a bit cynical, it's because I've done this sort of data search before, and often come up empty-handed.

You're not going to find a nice theoretical model, or parameters for one -- battery manufacturers just don't think that way.  At very best you'll find a curve of the voltage vs. time for a number of different discharge currents, and you'll have to fit your favorite model to that.  This data sheet contains an example: http://www.tenergy.com/core/media/media.nl?id=27670&c=671216&h=86512ecbd1b295c7bd1c&_xt=.pdf.  While you're perusing it and wondering why I didn't show a discharge curve for the company's LiPo cells -- it's because I haven't been able to find any.  Manufacturers don't seem to have much pride in their products as long as they can make $$, so you're kind of on your own.

It's actually pretty easy to plot your own curve, if you can get your hands on representative packs.  Radio Shack used to sell a nice voltmeter with RS-232 output; they probably still do (or one with USB serial built in).  It reads out once a second, IIRC.  That, a PC, a big resistor or light bulb bank, and a switch big enough to switch the expected current will give you a test set that won't have quite a perfectly flat current vs. voltage characteristic, but it'll be good enough.  Then just capture the voltage vs. time, and make sure you shut things down when the battery's discharged.
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Offline Jason Greer

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 02:29:06 PM »
Brett,

The following link will take you to a collection of battery graphs and in depth testing of various batteries and manufacturers:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342568

My apologies if you've already seen this information.

On another note and this is more related to the other thread regarding halts.  That thread has been diverted and I didn't want to get caught up in what is happening there.  I thought that a source for more information on failures and their causes may be to look into the RC helicopter world.  They are running in a very similar governed mode.  I think a lot of those guys are also using the Castle Creations Phoenix ICE ESC's as well.  There are certainly a lot more of them then there are us, so the number of failures that could be reported is certainly higher as well. 

Thanks,
Jason
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Offline schuang

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 08:49:58 AM »
Does there exist anywhere Thevenin's equivalents for the different battery types and brands? This is somewhat related to the "unexpected halt" question, if the power draw runs the voltage available for the controller low enough to cause it to drop out, it would presumably cause it to reset and then quit. Although I expect that some sort of back EMF spike is more likely. It would be trivial to determine the non-reactive equivalent by test. I don't immediately see an easy test for a reactive equivalent.

   One would expect the smaller the battery, the higher the apparent resistance, so it would seem possible to outsmart yourself and have excess voltage drop, even if the nominal capacity was sufficient for the flight.

   Brett


The equivalent model changes over time so it is probably not very useful.  Then if the manufactures put out some test results without any nin. Spec, it is also not good enough for us, either.  The things we must do is to observe the battery performance very carefully over time and minimize the risk.

Btw, I've mentioned that interconnections/connectors are things that most of people ignored.  These resistants are in series with the Rth.  Wire's resistant won't change much over time, but the worn plugs will.

Regards,

Sean

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 09:38:48 AM »
The equivalent model changes over time so it is probably not very useful.  Then if the manufactures put out some test results without any nin. Spec, it is also not good enough for us, either.  The things we must do is to observe the battery performance very carefully over time and minimize the risk.

Btw, I've mentioned that interconnections/connectors are things that most of people ignored.  These resistants are in series with the Rth.  Wire's resistant won't change much over time, but the worn plugs will.


   I have a notion of modeling the system, particularly with regard to the noise and spikes in the system, and knowing how much the battery contributes to the filtering would be relevant. I am also somewhat probing the state of the art/state of analysis to see where to start for myself.

    We have a bunch of square waves running around at reasonably high frequencies. One wonders what sort of noise that generates and how the system deals with it.

    Brett

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2011, 10:05:34 AM »
   I have a notion of modeling the system, particularly with regard to the noise and spikes in the system, and knowing how much the battery contributes to the filtering would be relevant. I am also somewhat probing the state of the art/state of analysis to see where to start for myself.

    We have a bunch of square waves running around at reasonably high frequencies. One wonders what sort of noise that generates and how the system deals with it.
By the time the current pulses get back to the battery wires they should be triangle waves, and (depending on the switching frequency and motor inductance) attenuated somewhat.  I'm not sure what those honkin' big caps on the input do when the system R external to the ESC is small, but when it's large they would suppress voltage pulsation.

When I started with RC electric flying I would periodically get caught up in analysis paralysis because I didn't know everything.  Just (as one of my favorite customers puts it) push the "I believe" button and move on.  Accept that it's magic, and life becomes easier (or at least more expedient).

My electronics bench is stuffed with customer work at the moment or I'd put an E-power RC plane on it and do some quick checks for you.
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Offline schuang

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2011, 12:25:59 PM »
   I have a notion of modeling the system, particularly with regard to the noise and spikes in the system, and knowing how much the battery contributes to the filtering would be relevant. I am also somewhat probing the state of the art/state of analysis to see where to start for myself.

    We have a bunch of square waves running around at reasonably high frequencies. One wonders what sort of noise that generates and how the system deals with it.

    Brett

The battery is a big honking decoupling cap so ESR is pretty low probably even up to tens of mega hertz.
They must have taking all these into account when start designing the ESCs.  All controller chips is running at much lower voltage rail (5V or even lower) and use LDO power management chips to regulate the low rail supply very well to improve the PSRR.  I know the output drivers (typically 6 MOSFETs) hookup to the battery directly and all other devices are powering up by LDOs.

You may need to reverse engineer one of the ESCs and get an idea instead.

Regards,

Sean

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2011, 01:12:34 PM »
They must have taking all these into account when start designing the ESCs.
I'm going to print that out and take it to the next meeting of my consultant's group.  It may actually have them rolling on the floor.

Some of "them" have, indeed, taken this into account (CC, no doubt, has).  But you cannot imagine the depths to which people fail to take issues into account in product design until you've spent a few years being a consultant, getting called by desperate business managers who were heros for figuring out how to get the job done for 1/4 of what it usually takes, then suddenly find themselves hiring a consultant at the last minute to actually make things work (often by turning it into a wad of bailing wire and duct tape with a product somewhere inside, trying to get out).

Somehow there's never time or money to do it right, but there's always time and money to get it fixed at the last minute.
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2011, 04:58:01 PM »


Somehow there's never time or money to do it right, but there's always time and money to get it fixed at the last minute.
[/quote]

That's not unique to the electronics industry.....

P Walker

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2011, 05:50:41 PM »

Somehow there's never time or money to do it right, but there's always time and money to get it fixed at the last minute.


That's not unique to the electronics industry.....

P Walker

  Indeed. Save $5 up front, today, and so what if it costs you $20 million later?

   Brett

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 07:28:13 PM »
Somehow there's never time or money to do it right, but there's always time and money to get it fixed at the last minute.

Well managed & cleanly implemented projects never get noticed...  The guy who rides in on the fire engine to save the day is the HERO - even if he was the root cause of the fire to begin with. 
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2011, 11:54:44 AM »
"Well managed & cleanly implemented projects never get noticed...  The guy who rides in on the fire engine to save the day is the HERO - even if he was the root cause of the fire to begin with."

So true Dennis, so true.  We use to say "Today's fireman, is yesterdays arson.".  And d@mned if they didn't get all the achievement awards. ''
Andy 
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2011, 02:52:40 AM »
Thevenin.  Name rings a bell.  Wasn't he a sidekick of the Emperor of San Francisco?
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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2011, 10:30:49 AM »
No, no, no ... He was the guy that invented the musical instrument that makes the spooky sounds like in the old Star Trek theme. ~>
Dean P.
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2011, 10:44:24 AM »
Leon Theramin did not invent Loulie Jean Norman, and her parents would have been offended had you seriously suggested that it was so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loulie_Jean_Norman,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theramin
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Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2011, 11:03:23 PM »
I'd prefer a Norton equivalent - Ed Norton, Ralph Kramdens pal..  8)

Seriously, I suspect the equivalent voltage source and series resistance are both dependent values, functions of multiple variables, including temperature, current level, and battery charge state and capacity. Not some nice simple clean linear value.

L.

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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2011, 03:00:51 PM »
Yes, Ed Norton, the Emperor.
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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Thevenin's equivalent for various battery types
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2011, 06:43:08 PM »
Leon Theramin did not invent Loulie Jean Norman, and her parents would have been offended had you seriously suggested that it was so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loulie_Jean_Norman,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theramin


Hi Tim,
Quite a story, eh? Kidnapped back to Russia! Golly.
I love the curious bits of history tied to many technical innovations.
You should hear the presentation I give at club m,eetings about the invention of Spread Spectrum techniques, as used in RC these days.
  Dean
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