News:



  • May 20, 2024, 11:05:58 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE  (Read 1467 times)

Online Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4344
THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« on: February 03, 2011, 04:52:51 PM »
When I was a boy I learned to fly using IC engines.  When I started flying electric I put aside my IC things… (Don’t you love postings that begin with paraphrased parables???)

A few years ago, Castle Creations launched a new set of programming parameters geared toward the Electric Control Line enthusiast.  Castle made it so the excellent Helicopter “governing” features were available now with a Prop Brake, then they went one giant step farther – they created new “Set RPM” mode.  With this ECL flyers could literally program the RPM setting they wanted and the ESC would deliver that same setting, flight after flight.  The program actually lets you program up to 3 settings at a time so if you get to the field and decide you want to fly a little faster or slower you can call up those speeds and get an EXACT change in the RPM setting every time – sounds like “Stunt Heaven”, eh?

I keep reading about people’s set ups and in some cases their issues to overcome when using Castle’s High Gov (or Low Gov as the case may be) particlulary when using low pole count motors like the old style Brodaks & Plettenbergs, and cannot fathom why these folks have not adopted the “Set RPM" mode.  More to the point, I cannot fathom why folks still insist on using analog “sundials” (tachometers) to SWAG at their RPM settings when digital electronic control is available.

I suppose that some of it is comfort; the High Gov modes let us “set the needle” just like we used to do with IC power – however, that is its weakness.    Usually the perpetrator uses an optical tach, dials in the RPM the best they can and gives it a go.  Just like IC it means that you will likely miss the setting as often as you hit it.  No worries, if it is too fast or too slow the process is repeated next flight.  Once the “happy RPM” is determined then the consistency of electric flight sets in and all flight speeds are the same – until the flyer hits conditions (temperature shift, altitude, wind or calm) and the user has to dial in the new somewhat faster or slower setting all over.  Heaven forbid you accidentally TOUCH the needle (the adjustment pot) between flights!

The basic flaw of this system begins with the measuring device.  The optical tachometer is the primary feedback tool for determining whether the RPM is correct, yet it is the least accurate least repeatable component in the system and completely at the mercy of outside influences (60 hz light sources, prop color, tidal stresses, planetary motion – you get the drift) Thus the analogy: using a tach to set the correct RPM on an e-powered stunter is literally like trying to use a sundial to set an electronic clock.

Consider the Set RPM alternative.  Again, the flyer goes through a similar trial & error process to get to their favored RPM.  However, instead of that RPM being the by-product of a throttle setting determined using a sundial (tachometer) the RPM is PROGRAMMED into the ESC and is used in the ESC feedback loop to actively control the motor.

To me the game-changing advantage occurs when I want to change the RPM setting for conditions.  With the Castle system you can program 3 RPM’s.  Using a Hubin FM-2SR or FM-9 timer, you select the RPM you have programmed.  The overwhelming advantage is that you select EXACTLY what RPM increment you want to use.  You can also revert back to EXACTLY the RPM you started with – no sundial required.  I usually try setting up the MIDDLE RPM setting as the regular setting, then make the LOW setting 100 RPM lower and the HIGH setting 100 RPM higher.  I have found that 100 RPM makes a pretty good step for most airplanes, but I could just as easily make it a 50 RPM step (as I do on the ultra clean Mythbuster) or 150 RPM step (have not needed that yet).

The one most commonly noted “downside” to Set RPM mode, is that you need a PC to access the ESC and change (reprogram) the three available RPM presets.  If you have a laptop PC then doing so in the field is really not that big a deal, if you do not then you have to go to where your PC is to change the presets.  I will counter with the thought that changing RPM well outside your normal settings is always a bit of a pain, the key difference with Set RPM is that you can change exactly where you want it to be, without guessing and doing the tachometer two-step.

The more I learn about High gov and Low gov, the more I appreciate Set RPM.  I suggest that if you have not tried it that you give it a go and see if it will break you of that needle valve habit left over from your IC days..!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline John Cralley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1235
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 08:53:48 PM »
Thanks Dennis,

I've been using set RPM for over a year and have never looked back.

However, I do understand that you can dial in different RPMs to suit conditions using Will Hubin's FM-9 system in the field without a computer. All you need is the FM-9 programmer. Please correct me if I'm wrong, since I have yet to use the FM-9 system although I have one in my hot little hands and am waiting for SPRING to give it a try (thank God that the groundhog did NOT see his shadow).  y1
John Cralley
Scratch Built - Often Re-kitted!!!
AMA 52183
Central Illinois

Online Bob Hunt

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2756
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 10:21:06 PM »
Well, I don't even pretend to know any of the technical aspects of either system, but I have flown both set RPM and Gov mode systems back to back and I would litterally quit flying electric if I were constrained to fly with the set RPM mode. That's a strong statement and not one intended to cause an argument. I find that the high gov mode gives me a bunch more "punch" in all conditions, but specifically in the wind. I don't feel any of that punch with the set RPM mode. I'll stick with the gov mode from now on.

Again, this is not meant to start a fight; it's only my strong opinion formed from experience.

Bob Hunt  
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:34:51 PM by Bob Hunt »

Offline PJ Rowland

  • AUS - 29541 AMA - 809970
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2058
  • Melbourne - AUSTRALIA
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 11:49:41 PM »
In my experience, Opinions are best formed from adivce based on opinions formed from experience.

 ;D
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

...
 I Yearn for a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Online Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4344
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 05:03:08 AM »
Hi John
I also have some FM-9's ready to try.  I believe they let you program the throttle position then your ESC takes it from there.  If you are in Hi gov or Low gov the throttle increments are different, and I also do not know how the ESC accomdates different KV & such when it s working ot a % throttle position.

Bob
At last we disagree on something!

Castle has told me there is no difference in the governor reponse for Hi Gov vs Set RPM, but paractitioners aren't so sure..!  I have heard that arguement before (Branch, Sawickit are trying to test & prove)  I have not seen it manifest itself.  Perhaps because the "punch" really is nore useful in calm conditions, in the wind we are usually more worried about braking - which should also be an outcome of more active governor response.

I know I am happy that when I change my setting for conditions I know EXACTLY what I am gettingm every time.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline John Hammonds

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 567
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 10:57:31 AM »
Well, I went in the opposite direction, I always used "Set RPM" mode when I 1st started with a jmp2 timer as I liked the step up in RPM which was available via the timer for the latter part of the flight, but since getting my FM-9 from Will have gone over to Gov Hi completely (And although opposite from John C just like him "never looked back"). I've not noticed any difference in flight behaviour between the 2 systems at all but then again it would probably take me a lap or two to notice the wing had fell off, that's the level I'm at.

The reason why I prefer Gov Hi is simply down to the FM-9. True with "Set RPM" I get a choice of 3 RPM's but the RPM adjuster pot on the FM-9 doesn't work. (I presume because it does not take the throttle across any of the throttle % boundaries. So with Gov Hi I get the ability to tweak the RPM via the Pot or adjust the RPM over a very wide spread using the programmer box. (I am assuming the programmer box is telling me the true RPM) In fact the programmer box is such a simple device to use I rarely adjust the pot at all, even if I'm actually walking out for a flight.

The other reason I use Gov Hi/Lo is in "Set RPM"you can put any RPM into the boxes which falls within the governor limits but in Gov Hi/Lo Will's box changes RPM in increments. I thought this meant the RPM I was dialling in using "Set RPM" was not necessarily what I was actually flying at and the Phoenix was rounding up or down to the nearest increment so the true RPM using Dennis's example above may in fact not be 100 RPM between each of the 3 figures but 50/150 or something similar. (But I am prepared to be told I am wrong on this one).....

TTFN
John

I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.....
Fast, Cheap, Reliable - Choose any 2!
BMFA 165249

Online Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4344
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 03:58:40 PM »
Hi John H
Well I think you'd notice when the wing fell off, the gov would have to crank i up to maintain RPM as you went into prop-hover mode!

All seriousness aside, you bring up an excellent point.  Even when you "Set RPM" and save the program, when you re-open it usually you find the RPM is a little different than what you programmed.  I have actully gone in and varied the RPM but just a few at a time to get it to save just what I wanted and more importantly to save the increment I wanted.

With nine new birds ready to test fly and five builds in progress I am expecting a VERY busy summer of flying and testing.


Been thinking about the governor "Spike" that folks claim is stronger for Hi Gov; it does not make any sense if the ESC is doing its job.  To wit: The ESC is only capable of delivering the required RPM - either that which is programmed (Set RPM) or that which is commanded by the throttle (Hi or Low Gov)  The ONLY logical reason for a tall spike is if - for whatever reason - the motor falls way off the desired RPM has needs a hard boot to get it back.  A mythical "perfectly" governed motor would never exhibit any kind of spike.  Make sense?



 
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline bob branch

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 941
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 07:09:40 AM »
It is very easy to test the difference in two modes, fixed rpm and gov hi. Using a data recorder we (Rick Sawicki and I have used the Castle Creations ICE esc's recorder). You use the same rpm and fly the same model in the same conditions on the same day and look at the recordings to see if there are any differences. Dispite what the folks at Castle Creations say, there are differences in the graphs. This is why we did the experiment in the first place, to see if there was an advantage to flying in one mode or the other. If you do the experiment you will see the differences where the plane manuevers. They are not difficult to find. Then make your own decision as to which mode you want to fly in. 

bob branch

Offline Bill Little

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
  • Second in COMMAND
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 10:35:11 AM »
Thanks, Brother Denny, for starting a nice discussion!

Now, for a guy who isn't "out" of the IC mode yet:  Where does prop selection fall into all this?

Thanks
Bill
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline bob branch

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 941
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 11:04:05 AM »
Bill

Thus far props are pretty simple, especially cause you can dial in the rpm you want. Whenever possible you want to use a pusher prop because its reveres rotation puts the Propwash on our side rather than against us. It creates line tension in the high slow maneuver points like hour glass 3rd corner and clover 3rd loop where we normally have little trouble getting line tension. Using these props and with the governor helping we have not just better line tension but really solid line tension in these places. You can fly in a low pitch mode with pitches in the 4 inch range or higher pitch mode in the 6 inch range. Both have their proponents. Both work and if you are set up properly engine size and kv and prop wise you will have minimal to no windup with either system. APC's props are pretty tough to beat and they have created a few pusher props for us in sizes that are very useful. Today you can have pusher props for anything from a .35 size airframe to a .90 size frame. Just depends on what you want to do. But the props are cheap and those of us who have experimented with lots oer a number of years have had trouble beating the APC electric props. btw, they are much thinner than what you are used to dealing with. Your impression will be..."you've got to be kidding".

bob branch

Offline Bill Little

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
  • Second in COMMAND
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 11:12:40 AM »
Thanks, Bob.

So with E-C/L, you basically pick your prop and set everything to it, whereas with IC, you get the engine where you want it and pick a prop.  Simplified I guess??

Thanks, again
Bill
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline bob branch

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 941
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 01:48:29 PM »
Bill

No I think for most the airframe comes first. That will dictate the motor range. Some will interpret motor next some prop. I tend to still select motor cause that is the background I have from glow. But I know for instance that on a 650 sq inch bird I need to turn a an apc 12X6EP prop at about 8600 rpm to fly the pattern on 63 ft lines at a 5.2 sec lap time. If the plane will fly the pattern properly on that length lines and is not a real heavy (read 80 ounce range) plane then an axi 2826/12 on 4S will do that if I carry 3700 mah of battery. I do not need that large a battery for the amount of current used during the flight but to have full governing all the way thru I have found that to be true. On 4s I can fly a smaller pack but my engine govening will not be as good near the end of the flight.  That comes from careful data recording and experience. But I have to state I do not fly scratch built airplanes any longer. Everything I fly is an arc or arf so I am not flying planes that are as light as possible. Some arfs are very light but not as good as I could achieve scratch building. That gets made up for in the finish though. I no longer paint but only film cover so my finishes weigh a lot less than a paint finish. All those of course are my choice. They work for me, maybe not someone else.

If I need to fly a heavy plane I would probably opt to set up for a lower pitch prop setup and select my motor accordingly. If I needed a lot longer lines I would need to set up for more rpm to get the 5.2 to 5.3 sec lap times I like to fly at and that most 650 or so planes need on 63 ft lines to fly well. I have noticed I do not need to go to 5 or under 5 sec laps in electric to get a good pattern on the planes I fly. If I needed longer lines, I would have to modify something. I would probably go to a 5 cell system to get the added rpm since I do not like to fly higher kv motors. Some people may use higher kv motors. Just depends on what you have worked with and what you like, how much heat you will put up with .... a long littany just like glow that comes from experience, experimentation and careful data recording. Because you can set up rpm independant of quality of engine run though you are freed up from needing a hole host of props in your collection. When you start to figure the cost of a large collection of carbon fiber props, electric really starts to get less expensive than glow in a hurry. Being able to set the rpm precisely and predictably lets you optomize exactly what the plane needs without worrying about what kind of run you will get. If you have the battery capacity to effectively have the governor work, you can dial in whatever you need. Same the amount of power. If you need any level of power not mater what it is, you can set up for it. If you need PA .75 level of power you can do it. If you need OS 1.60 power, you can do it. If you need 0.20 power you can do it. It doesn't mater.

A good start point for someone considering electric is to read as much as you can on what people have done. One thing you have to realize is the setup thread for instance is what the person was doing for a setup on a particular plane at a particular time. As they have learned more they may no longer use that setup. I have used setups that with what I know today I would be embarassed to have published. But its a learning process and isn't that part of why all of us do this hobby? I mean you can get a nobler, put a fox .35 in it, fly it on 60 ft lines with a 10X6 prop and fly the pattern. But you may want to learn more. Try a different prop, different lines, different balance point. Its the learning part that keeps many of us coming back for more. Its no different in electric. If you are considering a particular model, read around at who has flown it in electric. Contact them ask them about what they used and do they still use what they started with or did they change it? What would they use today? It can save you a lot of trial and effort. Hey! That sounds like what we do in glow too doesn't it?

bob branch

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4239
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 03:08:28 PM »
Guys,
I have been flying ECL for almost two years and flown both the Hi gov and set rpm. For me I like set rpm. I have been using the ZTron V3 timers, I set all three set points to 100% in the timer, set the delay start for 20 sec then do all the adjustments from the CC45. Simple works great can do field rpm change with the CC field board.

Best,              DennisT

Offline Archie Adamisin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 07:06:05 PM »
Guys,

I really think this is a case for what works best for you is what you should use.  I prefer Set RPM as I have a laptop that I download from the ICE every flight for a log book.  I also use it to make any changes if need be.  Once set, I have rarely changed anything besides messed with governor settings to really see what happens.  Motor timing and PWM rate are other things I mess with until I get the set-up to where it needs to be. 

So I say, use what's easiest for you.  but more important GO FLY!!!!!!  ECL makes it more about the pilot as the power-system is the least of your worries once set-up. 

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Archie Adamisin
Burlington, KY

Offline Peter Germann

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 04:01:25 AM »
From my so far limited experience, I believe that there is not really a case...

Whether the target flight RPM value is one of the three stored "Set RPM" value or whether it comes from the FM-9 timer is, as I see it, not of fundamental importance because both "Set RPM" and "Governor Mode" are insofar governed as the controller keeps every selected RPM chosen constant, regardless of prop load.

Whether "Set RPM" or "Governor Mode", to me governed constant RPM comes quite close to IC 4-2-4 as the ESC in both modes actually adjusts power (Watts) as much as approx. +/-40% up and down to compensate for prop load changes in manoeuvres. It does so at exactly the right moment, without noticable delay and perfectly repeatable.  Quite an achievement...

I use "Governor High" mode because it allows me to select any actual RPM required on the FM-9 propgrammer and load it into the FM-9 timer on site, w/o having to carry a laptop (which I dont have). This is very handy, in particular when test flying a new airplane. In order to properly function, the FM-9 Programmer must come with the program version offering "New Phoenix high mode". For details on my current setup, please check updated "Signorina Elettra" in "List your Setup".

rgds, Peter Germann
Peter Germann

Offline Percy Attfield

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2011, 07:39:28 AM »
Hi,
Interesting how each have his preference. I use the Keith Renecle system which provides easy at the field programming, with totally constant speed and have only enjoyed the best electric flights with this system.  It was last year September that I last flew an IC engined plane.  If you have problems with a tach due to winds etc set it up in the workroom or inside the car when at the field where there is minimum influence.

I also do not wish to start an argument just to point out there are some very effective and easy to use alternatives.

Regards
Percy
Percy Attfield - South Africa

Online Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4344
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2011, 08:56:28 AM »
Percy
I am looking forward to trying Keith's system if/when we ever lose our snow cover.  Keith has taken a totally different tack then anyone else and with that there is potential for NEW opportunities.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline CircuitFlyer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
    • www.circuitflyer.com
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2011, 10:51:36 AM »
Interesting topic.  How would "Set RPM" or "Governor Mode" work for twin engined motor models?  Is it possible to set the RPM of each motor sererately? Two motors may not be exacly the same or a pusher and a traction prop of the same size may not produce the exact same thrust either.

I hope someone can clear up my confusion - how does the FM-9 sense the actual motor RPM in order to control "Governor Mode".  Is there a feed back signal from the ESC to the timer?  If so, can that work with a twin?

Paul
Paul Emmerson
Spinning electrons in circles in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada DIY Control Line Timers - www.circuitflyer.com

Online Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4344
Re: THE CASE FOR CASTLE’S “SET RPM” MODE
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2011, 11:19:27 AM »
Interesting topic.  How would "Set RPM" or "Governor Mode" work for twin engined motor models?  Is it possible to set the RPM of each motor sererately? Two motors may not be exacly the same or a pusher and a traction prop of the same size may not produce the exact same thrust either.

I hope someone can clear up my confusion - how does the FM-9 sense the actual motor RPM in order to control "Governor Mode".  Is there a feed back signal from the ESC to the timer?  If so, can that work with a twin?

Paul

Hi Paul
With a twin you need an ESC dedicated to each motor.  In Set RPM you program in the ESC what each motor gets, including if you want a different RPM for each motor. 

If you use Hi Gov then the ESC responds to the RPM directed by the timer.  If you want different RPMs then you need 2 RPM signals (two timers).

I think it was Dean posted about the possibility of "slaving" the second motor in such a way that the current draw would be balanced for the 2 motors.  If such a thing is doable then it seems like it would help overcome any differences between the RH & LH versions of the same prop, and maybe even drive a different but balancing RPM betwen the inboard and outboard motors on a twin - NIRVANA!  The dynamic (governor) responses would get a bit gnarly tho...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here