News:



  • March 28, 2024, 01:37:46 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?  (Read 1905 times)

Teodorico Terry

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« on: April 29, 2022, 07:44:50 PM »
Hello,

I am using a Talon 35 on a small model running in governor mode with the throttle signal generated by a Brodak timer.  The throttle pot on the timer is set to max power which I understand as being a full throttle signal.

The set-up:

  1000KV motor (SunnySky X2820)
  4S battery
  10x5 prop

I am hoping to get about 10200 K RMP but for some reason the ESC will top out at 10000 RPM.  I ran a simple test with the ESC hooked up to a R/C receiver and ran the motor up to 12200 RPM using with the ESC in its default setting.  Based on this I know that the motor, battery and prop combination should be able to reach 10200 RPM but when governing I do not seem to be able to get the right settings.

The ESC is set-up as follows:

Vehicle type           :  C/L
Throttle type          : Governor
Governor type       :  Set RPM
Initial spool up rate:  Medium
Head speed change: Medium
Governor gain        : Medium

Battery                   : 4S and the associated settings
Motor and gearing   :  1000Kv, 14 poles

Desired head speed:  10200 RPM on all three
PMW rate               : 16 khz

I have played with the PMW rate and tried the different governor types (high and low) and nothing seems to work.  Based on the instructions it seems that in governor low mode I should be able to go beyond 10K RPM but when I tested the RPM was limited to 6500.  On governor high, the RPM came at 12200.  In either case it appeared that the ESC was ignoring the desired RPM.  I also played with the pot on the timer to see if altering the throttle signal would have an effect; it did not.

Finally, I have been using the Castle B-link to do the programing as it would be what I would be using at the field if I needed to make any changes.  I have the option of using the normal Castle Link through a computer as well.

Hopefully there is someone out there who can point out my mistake.  At this point I am thinking that the easiest solution is to use a 10x6 prop so that the RPM would be under 10K.

Thanks,

Teo

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2022, 09:28:36 PM »
So you get 12200 RPM with an RC setup and the ESC in it's "default setting", then you change two things, and get 10000 RPM with the timer and the ESC set to governor mode.

What do you get with the ESC in governor mode and the RC setup?  Or the ESC in its default setting and the timer?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Teodorico Terry

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2022, 06:18:56 AM »
Tim,

When running the ESC with the timer it is always programed to run in governor mode.  Only when I tested it with the R/C receiver it was set to its default settings which allow for a linear throttle response (i.e. not governed).  I could try it in its default setting and see how it responds to the throttle signal from the timer's pot.

I also have a Jetti box so I could test timer output to see what signal it generates, I had assumed that with the pot it would vary in range as it would if using a receiver instead. 

None of my current set-ups go beyond 10000 RPM as my lowest pitched prop is a 5.5.  I am tempted to set-up one of the other systems to go above 10K to see if they can do it.  I am interested in testing a 12x5 prop so I will need to do it at some point.

Thanks,

Teo

Rick_Huff

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2022, 06:43:03 AM »
Teo,
I've run into the same problem with my twins.  Castle told me that there is nothing to lower the rpm at which they'll govern.  I found two solutions:  1.  Go to a very low pitched prop.  A 4" pitch prop worked for my twins, a 5" pitch did not.  2.  Replace the Talon 35 with a Jeti 33.  The Jeti doesn't seem to have this problem, or at least, it occurs at a much lower rpm.
I'm using 6s batteries, which may exacerbate the problem.  A 5" prop may work with the 4s system.
Rick

Offline pmackenzie

  • Pat MacKenzie
  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 765
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2022, 10:34:17 AM »
I would try regular governor mode, and see what RPM you can get from adjusting via your timer.(i.e not simple and not aet)
Try low and high.

But first step would be to do non-governor mode and a very small prop to make sure the system can actually get to the RPM you want.
Then try with the prop and make sure it can get there loaded. Ideally it should get to your target plus about 30% for good governor operation.

Since your timer just has a pot to set RPM, then set RPM mode makes sense. Make sure you have the pole count set correctly in Castle Link.
The ESC only knows electrical RPM, the pole count is needed to set the corresponding mechanical one. Most of the motors we use are 14 poles, but not all are.
(I don't recall if the Castle program talks about poles, or pole pairs?)



MAAC 8177

Offline William DeMauro

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 796
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2022, 11:58:02 AM »
These would be my initial settings. I would not use set rpm. I would use those settings and put a small prop on it and set the rpm with the pot. The small prop (6" for example) keeps the motor from loading up while setting the rpm. Once I had that set I would switch to my "fly" prop. Now I have not used a talon but I'm pretty sure that it would mirror other castle speed controls that I have used.
AMA 98010

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4208
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2022, 12:22:57 PM »
I have use the Castle Talon 35 on several ships with no issues. My setup is a little different then you have used. I set the ESC to Control line mode, fixed rpm. Then I set all three section in the governing section to the rpm I want. I like to use a higher pitch lower rpm to save batter amps (it allows a smaller total pack size to be used, diameter and rpm are high drain). I set the timer to 100% throttle with a 20 sec motor start delay and let the ESC do the controlling.

I would suggest at least going to a 6" pitch as the 5 is going to give a low lap time (around 5 sec on 60') which is ok for just flying around but you will need to get to around 4.7 sec to get through the pattern on any but the lightest wind day.

Best,   DennisT

Teodorico Terry

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2022, 01:43:43 PM »
Hello Guys,

I did a little more experimenting today but it still does not want to govern properly about 10K RPM:

1) ESC defaulted to standard mode, used the pot to set the desired RPM.  On the timer alone it does not hold RPM well, although it takes small steps over time to increase the throttle it is not enough to keep the RPM constant.  The RPM would probably vary widely in flight due to loading and unloading when flying maneuvers.  No go.

2)  Saving the same pot position, took at look at high and low governing.  The RPM still peaked over 12K on high governing but it was slightly lower than 6.5K on low governing so the throttle did appear to affect RPM in the low governing mode.  The problem is, the max it will reach is 6.5K when full throttle is applied (looking for 10.2 K)

3) Changing the PMW did not really affect the RPM although the motor did become screechy if set too low (12 khz seems to be about right)

4) Since I can control the RPM when using the "SET RPM" mode if under 10K I switched the prop from a 10x5 to a 10x5.5.  The motor seems OK at 9.5K RPM and I will just go fly and see what happens.  I wanted the 10x5 prop because I thought it would provide more "excess power".

Dennis - My first attempts at E-stunt were using higher pitched props.  This was based on my R/C experience.  What I have come to realize is that it does not work as well as a lower pitched prop.  The closest thing that I can come to a real world comparison would be the difference between a climb and cruise prop on a full scale plane.  In our case we want to have excess power in level flight since we do not have the benefit of a throttle so E-stunt uses more of a "climb prop".  Normal R/C would be closer to a "cruise prop". The way I think about power is that we roughly use pitch to get the lap times we want and then adjust the prop diameter to get the power we need.  For example, a 10x5 or 11x5 would be spinning at roughly the same RPM to achieve a 5.0 second lap time everything being equal, but the power input will be significantly different.  If we pull into a loop, provided the RPM remains constant, the 11x5 prop will make more power and probably fly the maneuver better.  The prop diameter in some respect is determined by the size and weight of the plane.  Say a 10" prop might be great for a 2lb model but a 3lb model would prefer the 11" prop.

I have a rather ugly SIG Fazer which I modified quite a bit for C/L.  Most people would not recognize it.  It currently flies on 6S using a 13x6.5 prop and it is a decent flier for what it is.  The typical lap times run are in the 5.4 second range and it has enough power to fly through the hourglass which I consider to be the most power hungry maneuver.  On 62'6" lines which translates into a 67' foot circle from the top of my head to the propeller spinner and it equates to  53 mph in level flight.   Using a 13x8 prop on the same set-up gave me a very efficient cruise but the model struggled through the hourglass.  In both cases the lap times were very close.  You can certainly feel the difference in power and that was what changed my thinking.

At any rate, we will see how the little Shark 402 does on the new set-up with the 10x5.5 prop (33 oz ready to go, longer and deeper fuse to accommodate electric and keep the CG, flaps and a normal landing gear).

Thanks,

Teo

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4208
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2022, 02:44:49 PM »
Teo,
I appreciate you point and agree to some degree. I have a Still Stuka (48" span, 34oz) I fly this on 60" C to C at around 4.65 sec lap time (I like to go a bit faster all the time so I don't need to change speed in the wind). On the Stuka I use APCE-P 11x5.5 cut down to 10" and pitched to 6". This is set for fixed rpm at 9900 rpm. On my Ringmaster I found a battery pack the fits in the nose (right where the tank would fit), this is a 5S 1600 mah pack by HobbyShake. On this ship I am using a APCE-P 10x5.8 cut to 9 1/2" diameter and pitched to 7" at 9650rpm. This gives a lap time of 4.65 sec on 60' C to C. The reason for the lower rpm is to allow using the 1600 mah pack with fits the area and gets the balance were it needs to be while giving 18% reserve. You didn't mention the capacity of pack you are using but I assume around 1800 - 2200mah range.

The SIG Fraser as I recall is a 3D ship and has pretty large flaps that will add lots of drag during maneuvers where normal stunt flaps would not slow the ship that much. I believe that blade area is important to stunt ships to pull through the maneuvers regardless of pitch. The higher pitch large diameter that you tried seems to have loaded the motor and caused it to slow in the high load maneuvers. Many RC Pattern ships use pitch up in the 10"+ and pulls just fine. Way back when the Drone Diesel was king in control line stunt they used 11x10 props (with very wide blades) at 6000 rpm and won a lot of contests.

I had an issue similar to yours except mine would not go over 9500 rpm. I was using (and still do) the old Ztron timer. It has three steps for rpm and it turned out that they were not all set to 100%. So even though the ESC was set for 9900, it wouldn't get there. Once I reset all the rpm steps to 100% the ESC was in control and in fixed rpm mode would hit any rpm I wanted.

Best,   DennisT

Online John Rist

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2944
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2022, 05:39:13 PM »
All the above problems is why I like the KR timer.  It has active RPM control that adds power on the up hill part of the maneuver.  It decreases power on the down hill leg.  Also it works with most cheep ESC.  The only down side is you have to hook up a wire from the KR timer to one of the motor leads.  So far all of mine have been trouble free, that is so far.   :P     D>K
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4208
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2022, 09:09:18 PM »
Electric motors by their nature add power as the load comes on. It reacts very quickly and eases off power going downhill or if pushed by the wind to hold back. All the extra stuff to make it run as a 4-2-4 is extra complications. Adjust the gain a bit high and you get that from the ESC controlling to fixed rpm (it gives it a very slight overshoot for a little burst of rpm to catchup as the load is comes on). Runs like a top level piped IC setup with a more efficient prop (current top level IC setups low pitch/high rpm use props that just let the engine wind up so it can't go more if pushed). You need to try a couple setup with the ESC controlling rpm and the timer just delaying start and timing flight as the simplest. Try a different timer set all rpm section to 100%. Fine one that works for you to fly strong in the wind and use that as your standard setup and go fly.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 06:19:49 PM by Dennis Toth »

Teodorico Terry

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2022, 05:34:24 AM »
Hi -

Meant to reply yesterday but ran out of time. I did a little experiment to see if the inability of the ESC to go over 10K RPM was unique to the Talon or if it affected the ICE series as well.  I swapped props on the Fazer and put a 12x5 and asked the ESC for 10.5K RMP and I got it.  The programing of the ICE is basically the same as the Talon; however, it is possible that I am not using the best approach (user error is highly probable when I am involved).  It could also be that I do not have enough headroom between the max RPM and the RPM requested.  Not sure.  At any rate, for the Shark I opted to go with a 10x5.5 prop and we will see how it goes.

I have enclosed a photo of the Fazer, as you can see it looks nothing like the original model.  The flaps are of narrower cord, the wing includes rounded tips, lengthened the fuselage a bit and re-did the tail altogether.  It flies reasonably well although it is a little heavy at 60 oz. 425 watts of static power on 6S turning a 13x6.5 prop at 8300 RPM. Lap times in the 5.3-5.4 second range on a 67' circle (spinner to my head).  Trying to fly the outside square loop while flying 4.6 sec laps like Dennis does would result in one corner followed by a fence post landing....Just too fast for me.

The other photo I posted is one of my phone next to the Castle B-link.  This is one of the reasons I use Castle; I can easily update the programing at the field without having to use a laptop.  If you use the ICE series or its current incarnation it also allows for data logging which I have found to be extremely useful.  Never used it on my R/C model but in C/L I was constantly downloading the data as I tried different props and RPM settings.  It helped find the best balance between power and duration.

I also use Jetti, particularly on the 2M Pattern model.  That model has a Plattenberg and it seems that European ESC communicate more effective with European motors and US made ESC do. I also have a Jetti box which I use to program that ESC.

Thanks,

Teo

« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 06:20:07 AM by Teodorico Terry »

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4208
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2022, 06:40:04 AM »
Teo,
I still think the issue is in the timer. Swap that timer into the Frazer, with the smaller prop, and see if it gets to the 10.5K rpm as you did in the test. On the 67' lines the 5.3 ish lap time is not bad. BTW, nice looking ship.

Best,    DennisT

« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 07:57:09 AM by Dennis Toth »

Teodorico Terry

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2022, 07:26:08 AM »
Well, I did a little more experimenting and it appears that the issue is the timer, but not in an obvious way.  For the Talon ESC, in order to go beyond 10K RPM it needs to be run using governor high.  This setting does require a throttle signal capable of delivering the RPM.  Although you have the option of entering the desired RPM what really determines the RPM is the throttle input.  Entering the desired RPM results in the ESC suggesting the throttle setting (using the Castle link on a computer) needed to achieve the RPM.

As it turns out to achieve 10.2K RPM the throttle signal needs to be about 47% of full throttle so I set about to play with the power pot (i.e. throttle setting on the timer).  The lowest RPM I could achieve was 11K RPM with the pot set-up to provide what I thought was no throttle signal.  At this point I was confused so I connected a servo to the timer to see what kind of travel it generated as I adjusted the power pot.  When you first start the timer it generates no signal; however, once its starts, it appears that its signal ranges  somewhere between 55% at low throttle to 100% full throttle.  In essence, you cannot generate a throttle signal under 55%.  Now it made sense, the 55% is greater than the 47% needed to achieve 10.2 K RMP and hence why I kept getting 11K RPM.

So the conclusion is that if using the Brodak Clown timer and Castle ESC you can govern up to 10K RPM using the set RPM governor and 11K RPM and above if using the governor high option.  I have a more expensive version of the timer that I want to try out to see if it has the same limitations. 

Live and learn,

Teo

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4208
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2022, 11:11:23 AM »
Teo,
If you get a chance try using Control line mode, fixed rpm, set for you 10.2K, set the timer for 100% throttle. It should go with no problem.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Brent Williams

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1260
    • Fancher Handles - Presented by Brent Williams
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2022, 12:56:17 PM »
Which model of the Hubin timers are you using?
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Teodorico Terry

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2022, 05:47:10 AM »
Brent,

I am using the one which used to be part of the  power package for the Brodak clown, FMc-0.  One the members in the R/C club decided not to try C/L so he just handed it to me.  From the image you can see that the timer defaults to 65% power at the lower end and hence why it over revs in Governor Hi mode.  I have tried running it on the "set RPM" mode and varied the throttle input to no avail and it makes sense.  You just need a throttle signal to trigger the ESC and after that it should reach the set RPM.

I have a Hornet timer sitting around as well so I was going to run a little experiment using it instead.  We will see.

Thanks,

Teo

Offline Mike Alimov

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 379
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2022, 07:19:14 AM »
At the time those timers were being designed, Castle's latest ESC designs were Ice, Edge and Phoenix. Talon did not exist then. So Will Hubin has implemented RPM mapping accordingly.
A year or two ago, I brought his attention to the discrepancy between older and newer Castle ESC RPM maps, and he created a new firmware and released an upgrade chip for hus programmers. However, I'm afraid this does not apply to the simpler pot-operated timers, only the FM-9 series.

Teodorico Terry

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2022, 04:50:29 PM »
Hello Mike,

Thank you for the update.  It makes sense.  The funny thing is that if the signal could be lowered to 40% or so, it could be made to work with the ESC set on Governor High.  I ran some more experiments over the weekend and it appears that it will govern over 10K RPM but what you program is not necessarily what you get.  There is a 250-300 RPM discrepancy on the low side.  This is probably why when I was shooting for 10.3 K RPM I was only seeing about 10K RPM.  I programmed it to 10.6 K RPM and started seeing about 10.25K RPM, maybe a little higher.  It also got me wondering if my tach is off but at the lower RPM's what I program is what I get.  I guess I can live with that quirk now that I know.

Thanks,

Teo

Offline Mike Alimov

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 379
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2022, 08:02:27 PM »
Yep, about 250-300 discrepancy sounds about right. Also known as a Phoenix-Talon dichotomy in the quantum physics books 😉

Teodorico Terry

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Talon 35 will not govern over 10K RPM - Any suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2022, 08:24:38 AM »
Funny you say that.  I also fly R/C and other than having to set brake levels, cutoffs and throttle curves it is pretty straightforward. Even though I was very familiar with electrics once I started dabbling in C/L once again I found much that needed to be learned.  My other planes use ICE ESC which allow for data logging and it has been quite an eye opener in terms of understanding how the governor mode works.

Thanks,

Teo


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here