Author Topic: Sultan e (Read 5311 times)

WhittleN · « **on:** August 12, 2010, 07:02:26 AM »

Folks
Just thought I would show you my electric. It is a redesign of my Sultan airplane, focused on drag reduction. It has a 695 sq. in wing that is 18% thick (measured without the flaps). Wing is foam then fiber glassed then MonoKote’d; same for the Stab and flaps/elevators. Fuselage has a coat of K&B for the finish.
This airplane was designed on the trip back from the Northwest Regional’s at the end of May. You can imagine that Paul Walker’s airplane was the inspiration. First foam was cut 7 June and off I went. Ignorance never stood in my way but Bob Branch and Kim Doherty where of great help.
I could not get a Plettenberg Orbit 20/16 in time to install into this airplane - so I went with the AXI 2826/12 and CC Ice 50 Lite. Mr. Will Hubin helped with a FM-9 and controller. I was so tickled when everything worked the first time just as advertised. It now has a series of 2 min flights and 5 patterns on it. I’m not real excited to fly my IC powered Sultan – although it is one of the best flying airplanes I have ever had. This thin wing (18%) really lifts very well – please remember we fly at 4650’ MSL. It turns as clean as my 24% wing IC Sultan up here and that is quite a feat.

Norm

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #1 on:** August 12, 2010, 07:44:02 AM »

Hello Norm,
Great looking ship!
Okay, you are the first I have seen to use the circumferential air inlet and the front mounted motor together, not to mention the rear stabilizer mount.
What are your immediate post-flight motor temperatures?
Are the 3 or 4 small holes in the motor-mount bulkhead the only way that air gets from the gap around the spinner to the motor?

again, congrats,
Dean P.

WhittleN · « **Reply #2 on:** August 12, 2010, 08:08:05 AM »

Hi Dean
I can't tell you the immediate temp but taking the airplane back to the pits pulling the cowl, I can hold two fingers on the motor without discomfort.
Yes it has 4 holes spaced between the mounting screws holes are oblong 1/4" X 7/16". Everything stays very cool.
I forgot to mention the airplane weighs 59 oz with a 5S2600 ThunderPower battery

Norm

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #3 on:** August 12, 2010, 12:01:47 PM »

Hi Norm,
If you can stick your fingers on it for a long time then it's under 145F, unless you worked as either a waiter or auto mechanic!
If so, that is good! By the way, Harbor Freight has a coupon out for a decent IR thermometer with sighting laser for $25.
What is the total area of the holes in the firewall and what is the width of the gap between the spinner and fuse?
Thanks,
Dean

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #4 on:** August 12, 2010, 04:27:16 PM »

Wow Norm, you hit ALL the bases with this one. EVERYTHING looks great, love that squeeeky clean installation. The 5S system will tend to run a little cooler (lower current than 4S)

I am really excited for ya!

WhittleN · « **Reply #5 on:** August 12, 2010, 04:59:47 PM »

Dean
Area is approximately .385 sq. inches (total). Spinner is .5 inches in front of motor plate. I would suspect the motor is cooler than 120 deg F. I will get a IR thermometer. As you can see in the picture the cowl has a baffle that cools the ESC and flows back to the battery. Neither of them are hot and I can pull the battery and hold without trouble. I will take a picture with the spinner remove soon and post. The inside of the annular intake is filleted to approximately .1875"Radius
The prop nut and washer shown in the picture are no longer used. It is a flanged metric bearing with a trust spacer on the motor side of the rear mounting plate. No need for no stinkin' prop nuts

Norm

WhittleN · « **Reply #6 on:** August 12, 2010, 05:06:39 PM »

Thanks Dennis
I flys good too. I never expected a 18% thick wing to turn so well at this altitude. I guess I now understand why Hunt & Walker are so hot on electric. The power is just instantaneous.

Norm

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #7 on:** August 12, 2010, 08:53:46 PM »

Thanks for the info, Norm.
It's obvious you put some thought into things.
Now it's time to noodle around and optimize the governor gain and bandwidth(response time).

For all the genuine benefits of lower-drag airframes, the fast added torque in the corners that governed operation gives us could even be used to give a big-flapped airplane good POP coming out of a corner. You won't find Bob or me building one of those anytime soon, anyway!

take care,
Dean

ptg · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2010, 09:01:10 PM »

ET Tu Norman,

Soon head shims will be made of lead and find their rightful place somewhere on the outboard wing! This is some pretty cool stuff and we haven't even got started yet. I'm having too much fun designing, building and tinkering with lectricity, it must be illegal. Congrats and look forward to seeing it do some tricks.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #9 on:** August 12, 2010, 09:41:50 PM »

Very nice Norm!

WhittleN · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2010, 07:09:47 AM »

Dean

I finally bought an IR Thermometer. Checked the temperature of the motor as soon as I got back to the pits and turned over the airplane - 134 deg F. With a +/- 4 deg F error (Harbor Fright $20 Thermometer) that would put it about where you speculated in the above post.
I am also consistently putting 1500 ma back into the batteries after a 5:25 min flight. This is with a 13 X 4.5 APC prop (by the way thanks Dennis Adamisin for bring the prop to production). I will be going to fly at sea level next month and will be interested in finding out the ma consumption at 4600’ lower altitude.
Regards
Norm

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2010, 08:00:41 AM »

Hi Norm:

Welcome to the fold... Great looking ship! Yes, now your clothes and your car won't smell funny anymore and your wife will love you for it!

Would you consider letting us publish your E-Sultan in Stunt News? Fame and glory - but no money - could be yours!

Again, great job and welcome to electric!

Bob Hunt

WhittleN · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2010, 08:19:08 AM »

Bob
I only do it for the fame and glory don't need no money - government only takes it away.
Sure let's put it into Stunt News, please let me know the requirements and time line (suspense).

Norm

TDM · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2010, 12:55:35 PM »

Quote from: WhittleN on August 23, 2010, 08:19:08 AM

Bob
I only do it for the fame and glory don't need no money - government only takes it away.

Norm

True

Bart Klapinski · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2010, 02:23:05 PM »

Hi Norm. I have been reading all of this with a lot of interest. I,of course, have seen your IC Sultan fly when I was in your neighborhood and your E-Sultan flies better? OK--- I know it does. I'm thinking that for Profile and Expert/Open stunt E is the way to go. I'm some what of a purist however and would do it in Classic or OTS. For those who haven't met you, you are a VERY good flyer and have a lot of intelligence to boot. I hope I will see you at the Golden State meet.

Bart

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2010, 07:21:17 PM »

The Bart Klapinski on our humble forum!
I genuflect.

Dean

WhittleN · « **Reply #16 on:** October 15, 2010, 05:17:37 PM »

The Good news

The Sultan-e has been repaired.
A couple of weeks ago Gordan and I were flying and as I pulled up for the wingover the AXI 2826/12 just stopped. I don't run as fast as I used to so the fuselage in front of the wing just crumpled. I contacted Castle Creations (the manufacture of my speed control) seems I mistakenly set the PWM frequency to "outrunner" thought I had a out runner but according to the folks at Castle I need to set the big motor to 8kHz. The outrunner mode is for small park-flyer motors. So the thinking is that the AXI just lost sync and stopper.
Since I broke the AXI motor during impact I switched to the Orbit 20-16 with the CC ICE 50 Lite. The Orbit is a 10 pole motor vs. the AXI (14 pole) so the Governor is set to Low unfortunately this gives you 300 RPM steps. I really wanted finer steps than that so I switched to the Schulze F2B controller. the Schulze doesn't have a built in BEC so I also had to switch to the Hubin FM-9R timer. So now with the new controller I have about 30 RPM step resolution. I'm happy.
The rebuild and switch in equipment resulted in elevation the weight from 60 to 62.5 oz. with battery (ThunderPower 5S 2600).
Hope this helps anyone using the CC ICE ESC.
Regards
Norm Whittle

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #17 on:** October 15, 2010, 06:37:15 PM »

That's a lot of switchin! Glad to hear the "E" version of Sultan is back in the game. I doubt those extra 2.5 oz will amount to anything either...

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #18 on:** October 15, 2010, 08:24:07 PM »

Norm,
How many mah are you using with the "new" set up compared to the "old" set up? Thanks for keeping us informed.

WhittleN · « **Reply #19 on:** October 16, 2010, 11:47:05 AM »

Crist
With the Ice ESC and the Plettenberg 20-16, APC 13 X4.5, 65' eye to eye lines; 1550 ma. I'll post what the average with the Schulze is after I fly tomorrow.

Norm

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #20 on:** October 16, 2010, 08:17:33 PM »

Thanks Norm.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #21 on:** October 17, 2010, 09:57:26 AM »

Norm
As a quick aside, you could get the RPM you want in the 10 pole motor with the Castle if you use the "Set RPM" mode.

Your power usage numbers sound great. If can believe what you read about the Pletty you should see a pretty strong improvement too, both for the motor sizing and the Orbit's claimed effiecincy (don't know that anyone here has actually TESTED that)

Russell Bond · « **Reply #22 on:** October 17, 2010, 04:55:34 PM »

I replaced my Arrowind 2832-5 with an Orbit 25-10 and instead of using 2400 mah, I now use 2200 mah. (4s battery.)
I now use a 3300 battery instead of a 3700, saving 2.5 oz!...(although the motor is almost an ounce heavier, but I'm still in front.)

Also, I have set the ESC to "Set RPM" and have no troubles, just don't set the PWM rate to 8kz; 12kz or 16kz works. When I set it to 8kz, it blew the prop loose!...

WhittleN · « **Reply #23 on:** October 17, 2010, 05:05:46 PM »

Update - the Plettenberg, Schulze and FM-9R use 1450 ma. This is down 100ma over the ICE Lite 50 and FM-9, same motor. Average is of 3 flight's of battery data 1455, 1438 and 1467ma. One should remember that I fly at 4650 MSL so at sea level I'm guessing about 200ma more consumption.

Dennis I will try the set RPM mode. Does it do anything different than Low Gov?

Norm

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #24 on:** October 17, 2010, 11:13:54 PM »

1450mah??? Sounds like your battery is too big! All seriousness aside 2200 mah should still be safe, and you will get back some of that 2.5 oz

Set RPM requires that you do just that. You call it up on the first page of the Castle menu, three boxes "lite up" on the mid-left side of the page. I usually use the middle box for my expected flight RPM then set the high at +100 and the lower box at -100 rpm versus the middle. Those are my options if I want to go a little faster or slower. In reality I rarely change any.

Of course you have to have the pole count set corectly.

Back to the FM-9, youhave to select the "Castle Set RPM" mode there, it will give you the selection of low med high (I forget, it might say 1-2-3). You select which of the three RPMs you have programmed that way.

SO based on your test flights - is the operation a success???

Howard Rush · « **Reply #25 on:** October 18, 2010, 12:08:13 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on October 17, 2010, 11:13:54 PM

1450mah??? Sounds like your battery is too big!

Sometimes he comes down to sea level to pick on us. It takes more electricity.

WhittleN · « **Reply #26 on:** October 18, 2010, 06:48:07 AM »

Thanks Dennis

I will try it this week. I have a test stand to play with motors/ESC's. It does worry me that I'm only using 1450 ma what causes the savings? I really like the data logging function in the Castle ICE - you can see what is going on. Unfortunately the Schulze don't tell you much. I'll let you know how it works.

Now, Howard a "c" team player can't come and pick on Junior Varsity and Varsity players on the coast. But it takes more electricity when they do.

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #27 on:** October 18, 2010, 09:28:22 AM »

Hi Norm,
There are two reasons I can think of why you could consume less battery capacity with the same motor and battery.
1) warmer batts yield higher voltages, so less current is consumed. Yes, cold weather consumption will go up.
2)less advanced commutation timing reduces both current output power. Depending on whether you were over-advanced to begin with or not, the reduction in power will be the same as or less than the reduction in current.

My guess is that the sudden stoppage was related to over-advance. Over-advance shows up in higher current & winding temps even before any other ugly things happen.
The motor change begged for some pre-flight investigation.

this part corrected ... thanks for the note Kim

This is why it is good to have a servo-tester that puts out a control pulse to the ESC and then to run tests on the ground in RC-style fixed RPM mode to see what happens to the battery current needed to hold flying RPM constant. Whipping the throttle up and down quickly maybe 20% will help uncover marginal commutation timing as the motor will either balk or screech.
If you do this in Governor mode, you don't know if the problem is commutation or governor settings. You have to separate the variables.

I am glad you're back in the air!
take care,
Dean P.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #28 on:** October 18, 2010, 12:58:37 PM »

Quote from: WhittleN on October 18, 2010, 06:48:07 AM

Now, Howard a "c" team player can't come and pick on Junior Varsity and Varsity players on the coast. But it takes more electricity when they do.

We got a charge out of your last appearance.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #29 on:** October 18, 2010, 02:47:03 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on October 18, 2010, 12:08:13 AM

Sometimes he comes down to sea level to pick on us. It takes more electricity.

GOOD CATCH! I do not think Norm would ever get close to the limits tho. Begs the question: does anybody have DATA on the differences in battery usage with changes in altitude?

Keith Renecle is flying at (I think) 6000 ft. When he flew in France in 2008 he started toasting motors & ESC's...

WhittleN · « **Reply #30 on:** October 18, 2010, 03:20:33 PM »

I only have 9 flights of data down at about 300' MSL vs. 25 flights at 4650' MSL. The delta is about 200 ma using one specific configuration. This configuration was the AXI 2826/12, ICE lite 50 ESC and FM-9 and the same four 5S 2600 ThunderPower batteries. At 4650' consumption was 1650 ma average and increased to 1850 ma at 300'. Paul Walker double checked by charging one battery for me on his charger and it took 1900 ma. So the average for a 4000 foot change in altitude is about 200 ma.

Norm

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #31 on:** October 18, 2010, 08:56:47 PM »

Quote from: WhittleN on October 18, 2010, 03:20:33 PM

I only have 9 flights of data down at about 300' MSL vs. 25 flights at 4650' MSL. The delta is about 200 ma using one specific configuration. This configuration was the AXI 2826/12, ICE lite 50 ESC and FM-9 and the same four 5S 2600 ThunderPower batteries. At 4650' consumption was 1650 ma average and increased to 1850 ma at 300'. Paul Walker double checked by charging one battery for me on his charger and it took 1900 ma. So the average for a 4000 foot change in altitude is about 200 ma.

Norm

Good stuff Norm. Thanks for sharing.

Allan Perret · « **Reply #32 on:** November 28, 2010, 04:48:53 PM »

Hey Norm:
Saw where you listed your Sultan's weight at 59 oz.
I read about your wing and thought that would have been heavy, but obviously not.
Can you elaborate a little about your process.
Was the foam wings cored ?
What weight glass did you use and what did you apply it with ?
Do you fill the weave of the glass, or is that not necessary when Monokoting ?

WhittleN · « **Reply #33 on:** November 29, 2010, 06:46:39 AM »

Allan
The wing is indeed foam. It has a 3/32” vertical grain spar and is covered with 1/16” balsa. Panels are vacuum bagged, then cored. Each panel after coring weighs about 4.5 oz. I do cover the wing with .75 oz fiberglass with some extra 1.4 oz (2 layers) in the center section. I put all the glass on at once (one side top or bottom) and squeeche ACP 60 min epoxy. I use playing cards and try to get it very even. After both sides are cured 24 hours typical, I sand and cover with MonoKote using a sock on the iron. If your hands and arms don’t hurt after -you ain’t pulling the covering tight enough.

Allan Perret · « **Reply #34 on:** November 29, 2010, 09:25:52 AM »

Quote from: WhittleN on November 29, 2010, 06:46:39 AM

Allan
The wing is indeed foam. It has a 3/32” vertical grain spar and is covered with 1/16” balsa. Panels are vacuum bagged, then cored. Each panel after coring weighs about 4.5 oz. I do cover the wing with .75 oz fiberglass with some extra 1.4 oz (2 layers) in the center section. I put all the glass on at once (one side top or bottom) and squeeche ACP 60 min epoxy. I use playing cards and try to get it very even. After both sides are cured 24 hours typical, I sand and cover with MonoKote using a sock on the iron. If your hands and arms don’t hurt after -you ain’t pulling the covering tight enough.

Based on your initial post, I didnt realize that the wing was also sheeted with balsa. I thought you just put the fiberglass right on the foam core. (Does that even work?)
The vacuum bagging was used just for the balsa sheeting, right ?

WhittleN · « **Reply #35 on:** November 29, 2010, 09:50:15 AM »

Allan
Yes, just the balsa. If I tried to Vacuum the Fiberglass the wing would colapse because of the coring.

Norm

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #36 on:** November 29, 2010, 01:57:32 PM »

Quote from: Allan Perret on November 29, 2010, 09:25:52 AM

Based on your initial post, I didnt realize that the wing was also sheeted with balsa. I thought you just put the fiberglass right on the foam core. (Does that even work?)
The vacuum bagging was used just for the balsa sheeting, right ?

The RC glider guys put glass right over foam, but they usually do so with 2 lb per cubic foot blue foam.
They often use the equivalent of 4 or 5 oz/sq-ft per side in addition to the spars / carbon fiber.

later,
Dean

walterbro · « **Reply #37 on:** November 30, 2010, 07:22:04 AM »

Hi Norm - I read your post on the AXI 2826/12 stopping on the start of your wingover. I was not sure if you ever found out why. The reason about inrunner vs outrunner setting given by CC did not ring true. Are you still using an ICE 50 ESC ?
If so how did you set it.

Sincerely, Walt Brownell

WhittleN · « **Reply #38 on:** November 30, 2010, 07:36:39 AM »

Hi Walt
Never figured it out. Even the head guy at Castle Creations can't tell me. After rebuilding the front end, I now run a Plettenberg Orbit 20-16 and the ICE lite 50. I set the PWM to 8 kHz and timing to "custom - 4" and the thing runs flawless. Governor gain is very high. RPM steps are in 300 RPM steps but I'm lucky that it locks in at 5.28 sec laps for my setup. I tried the Schulze 18.46 F2B ESC it stepped in 30 RPM steps, but removed it after three flights and sold the two I had. I think (and this is only speculation) that I had the timing too advanced on the ICE Lite 50, hence the below "normal" timing setting now.

Norm

TDM · « **Reply #39 on:** December 09, 2010, 12:53:00 PM »

Quote from: Dean Pappas on November 29, 2010, 01:57:32 PM

The RC glider guys put glass right over foam, but they usually do so with 2 lb per cubic foot blue foam.
They often use the equivalent of 4 or 5 oz/sq-ft per side in addition to the spars / carbon fiber.

later,
Dean

Pressure is depending of the type of foam closed cell or open cell foam. I vacuum bag glider foam wings with closed cell foam (Dow blue foam) and use max vacuum 25PSI which is very strong with no problem, on the other hand you should not use more than 7PSI vacuum for open cell foam.
To achieve good surface finish without weight or balsa on the top of foam just use some flat sheet of Mylar or Teflon about .02in put the glass to this sheet and resin then paper towels over the resin and use a hard roller to draw the resin in to the paper towel then place the Mylar on the foam and vacuum. It is light and strong. Flaps elevators rudder stab surfaces are easy to make this way but they will come out a bit on the heavy side. The best and lightest still remains Fiberglass balsa Fiberglass sandwich hollow molded shell.

WhittleN · « **Reply #40 on:** December 09, 2010, 01:59:36 PM »

Traian
Could you do a tutorial maybe in the construction section of Stunthanger on the Fiberglass balsa Fiberglass sandwich hollow molded shell process? I followed your construction posts of you last airplane - very good. But maybe you could ad some more details - some of the finer points.

Norm

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #41 on:** December 09, 2010, 02:07:09 PM »

Dorin,
Units, please: is that 25 or 7 inches of mercury worth of pressure?
Thanks,
Dean

Terry Bernard · « **Reply #42 on:** December 09, 2010, 06:38:29 PM »

Quote from: WhittleN on November 30, 2010, 07:36:39 AM

Hi Walt
Never figured it out. Even the head guy at Castle Creations can't tell me. After rebuilding the front end, I now run a Plettenberg Orbit 20-16 and the ICE lite 50. I set the PWM to 8 kHz and timing to "custom - 4" and the thing runs flawless. Governor gain is very high. RPM steps are in 300 RPM steps but I'm lucky that it locks in at 5.28 sec laps for my setup. I tried the Schulze 18.46 F2B ESC it stepped in 30 RPM steps, but removed it after three flights and sold the two I had. I think (and this is only speculation) that I had the timing too advanced on the ICE Lite 50, hence the below "normal" timing setting now.

Norm

Norm,

Not sure I understand all of this but I thought the Schultz ESC was one of the good ones. Wouldn't more resolution be better than less? Interesting choice.

Terry.

WhittleN · « **Reply #43 on:** December 09, 2010, 07:47:07 PM »

Terry
The Schulze is an excellent ESC. It just doesn't let me have the control I want over Timing, Governor gain plus a host of other things and the cabability to record many of the parameters. Resolution is excellent on the RPM steps with the Plettenberg motor. I want to tune my electric setup to my airplane - the complet package motor,ESC, timer and battery may work in someone Else's airplane but not necessarily optimized for mine.

Norm

TDM · « **Reply #44 on:** December 10, 2010, 12:08:23 PM »

Quote from: Dean Pappas on December 09, 2010, 02:07:09 PM

Dorin,
Units, please: is that 25 or 7 inches of mercury worth of pressure?
Thanks,
Dean

Whoops I meant PSI. 28.

?PSI is the maximum vaccum pressure you can get.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #45 on:** December 10, 2010, 04:10:41 PM »

This reminds me of one of the best comebacks I ever received from one of my many snotty remarks. I was at an industrial supply store looking for vacuum hose. I saw some hose that looked like it might work. I asked the clerk how much vacuum it was good for. He told me that it was good for 3000 psi of vacuum. I said, "On the planet where I live, 15 psi would be plenty." He looked at me and asked, "What planet's that?" I congratulated him.

TDM · « **Reply #46 on:** December 13, 2010, 06:32:08 AM »

"On the planet where I live, 15 psi would be plenty." He looked at me and asked, "What planet's that?" I congratulated him.

What a JENIOUS.