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Author Topic: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy  (Read 22730 times)

Offline Jim Carter

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Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« on: March 09, 2016, 12:39:20 PM »
 :)  Hello folks!  I'm writing this to request some suggestions and recommendations for converting my Brodak Legacy to electric.  It's Brodak kit ARC-0017, ws= 59-3/8", rated for .40 - .61.  My original thoughts were to mount my N.I.B. OS FL 70 four stroke but I also think it might be a good subject for conversion.  Now please understand, I have a fair amount of c/l and r/c scratch and kit building experience so that shouldn't be a problem.  However, I've been hardcore nitro and gas to this point and as such I've not put much effort into learning about electrics as they relate to conversions.  I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2016, 12:53:41 PM »
BIG motor.  BIG battery.  Have you picked through the "list your setup" yet?  There's other planes of similar size in there, slavishly copying one of those would be a good starting point.

Your biggest decision points will be:

  • Go with an inexpensive ESC and a KR timer (with governor)
  • Go with an ESC that has a helicopter governing mode (like a Castle ESC) and a Hubin timer
  • Go with an Igor setup.  I notice that you fly Beginner -- you probably won't benefit from this, because it really complicates trimming
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline James Mills

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 01:42:04 PM »
Jim,

Here is the set up I've used in 2 planes and it's basically the same set up used by Will D. and others, all planes in the same size ballpark.

Cobra 3520/10 KV 980
Castle Ice 50 Lite/Phoenix 60
Zippy 4S 3700-4000
Hubin timer

Good system.  Hope this helps.

James
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Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2016, 09:19:11 AM »
 :)  Thanks guys!  About an hour after I posted this a buddy suggested that I contact Brodak (don't know why I didn't think of it myself  ??? )>  I did and got a really nice response from the folks who forwarded it to Dennis Adamisin who supplied me with his recommendation .... plus it's "one stop shopping!!   ;D  Now to sneak the checkbook away from the wife!!   LL~ LL~

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2016, 10:32:34 AM »
:)  Thanks guys!  About an hour after I posted this a buddy suggested that I contact Brodak (don't know why I didn't think of it myself  ??? )>  I did and got a really nice response from the folks who forwarded it to Dennis Adamisin who supplied me with his recommendation .... plus it's "one stop shopping!!   ;D  Now to sneak the checkbook away from the wife!!   LL~ LL~

Dangit, that thought was trying to knock on my brain and I didn't listen.  Do they have a conversion kit for the Legacy?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2016, 06:42:57 AM »
Dangit, that thought was trying to knock on my brain and I didn't listen.  Do they have a conversion kit for the Legacy?

Not yet, its on my bench. Taking awhile because it includes pieces for front mount and rear mount variations, I have to build both to include in the installation manuals.  Here's some pix so far:
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2016, 10:22:20 AM »
Looks good, Denny -- batteries go in from the top?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2016, 11:25:04 AM »
Hi Jim - I have been flying an E-powered Brodak ARF Legacy for about 3 years, hundreds of flights. Excellent model. I built mine as electric from the outset (did not convert from glow). After several motors have settled on OS 3825-750. Has built in cooling fan. Rear mounted. I made a lot of structural changes to the engine compartment and wing saddle and built a properly-vented cowl (the plastic kit cowl is useless). If you send me a pm I can send you photos of the details. You will like this model a lot. I also added CF tubes to the wing joiners to make an I-beam structure. Have photos somewhere.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2016, 12:42:59 PM »
Looks good, Denny -- batteries go in from the top?

Yup.

WARNING what follows sounds like a commercial:  S?P

The top rails help reinforce the opening and also provide a ledge for potentially locking in the battery and top hatch. The kit will include a wing mod to build a reinforced pocket into the wing leading edge.

A lot of folks are discovering the 3515 & 3520 motors so I designed the conversion to accommodate either 35xx (3526 shown) or 28xx motors.  I would expect a quite a variety of 4S, 5s, & 6S packs will be in play.  The battery compartment is 2.25" wide x 2.375" tall (below side rails) x 8.75" long including the LE pocket.  I show the MPI arming plug up high on the outboard fuse (my preference) but it will be optional to put it pretty much anywhere the builder wants it.

The cowl is built in place, the motor is installed through the battery hatch.  You can do this with a rear mount motor if you mount the motor to the BACK of the firewall and slip the motor through.  The advantage for no cowl is that it restores a lot of the structure you lose with a top side battery hatch - comparable to a normal fuselage open to the bottom with a long cowl.   

BTW, for Jim C I recommended the Arrowind 2826, 4Sx3500 pack and the new Brodak F2B Hornet ESC.  The Arrowind 28xx motors actually have a 30mm stator like the Scorpions so they run "big" to their size.  The new 4S x 3500 packs are very high capacity for their size and weigh just under 10 oz.  The ESC is a brand new piece that I started flying late last fall.  Designed for Heli's it has a VERY smooth governor designed for Heli's.  I worked with them to revise the physical package somewhat and to enable BRAKE function while the Heli governor is active.

Jim C will be converting an ARC, I suspect Jim will best be served with a rear mount motor because that will be his best assurance of tying into solid fuselage structure.  I have not touched the Legacy ARC/ARF, but I converted a SV11 ARF using the Universal "B" set designed for 2.25" inside width fuselages.  To do that I removed the mounts and the "F1" bulkhead then installed the new firewall & battery tray.  Also set it up for a top battery hatch. 

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2016, 04:26:29 PM »
 :)  Howdy y'all!  Well, I received my order from Brodak this afternoon for all of the stuff that Dennis recommended with the exception of the Universal "B" conversion set.  I s'pose it was out of stock but nevertheless, I'm pleased with what I see.  I've got a feeling I'm going to feel the challenge of figuring out how to mount the engine, rig up a battery mount with hold down plus install the ESC and timer all while figuring out a neat but adequate cooling configuration ??? ???  Hummmmmmmmm!!  Maybe mounting my OS 40 four stroke is a bit less stressful  ;D  LL~ LL~

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2016, 05:19:34 PM »
I suggest you get those engine bearers knocked out of there ASAP.  That way there'll be no turning back!
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2016, 08:15:28 PM »
I suggest you get those engine bearers knocked out of there ASAP.  That way there'll be no turning back!

I'll second that
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2016, 05:54:28 PM »
Not yet, its on my bench. Taking awhile because it includes pieces for front mount and rear mount variations, I have to build both to include in the installation manuals.  Here's some pix so far:


hmmmm - where have I seen this setup/layout before.... 
oh yeah - on my vectors and legacy of about 5yrs ago -  totally dig it - it WORKS
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Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2016, 09:47:03 AM »
Hi Jim,

I did an Electric conversion with a Legacy ARF just a while ago using Bob Hunt's Hard nose mount.  The details are in the "List your set up" section,  and I also have some pics of the mods in the video below.


Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2016, 12:58:16 PM »
Hi Jim,

I did an Electric conversion with a Legacy ARF just a while ago using Bob Hunt's Hard nose mount.  The details are in the "List your set up" section,  and I also have some pics of the mods in the video below.


Greetings Joe!  That's a really nice looking setup you have there.  I like that motor mount!  I looked over your video and find it to be very enlightening, especially considering I've no idea how to rig one of these electric jobs up.  I see you've even acquired the capability to program your setup from your laptop.  Please explain what features you are setting and if you think the laptop is necessary for initial programming.  I don't know if the items I purchased will require programming because given my skillset I may as well revert this thing back to my OS 40 :-\ !!  This morning I began removing the built-in hard wood motor mounts and made a firewall from a piece of 3/8" aircraft ply that I had left over from another project.  Hopefully I can rig everything up correctly.  Just curious, what kind of prop is that you're using?  I like it!  :)

Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2016, 10:50:16 AM »
Greetings Joe!  That's a really nice looking setup you have there.  I like that motor mount!  I looked over your video and find it to be very enlightening, especially considering I've no idea how to rig one of these electric jobs up.  I see you've even acquired the capability to program your setup from your laptop.  Please explain what features you are setting and if you think the laptop is necessary for initial programming.  I don't know if the items I purchased will require programming because given my skillset I may as well revert this thing back to my OS 40 :-\ !!  This morning I began removing the built-in hard wood motor mounts and made a firewall from a piece of 3/8" aircraft ply that I had left over from another project.  Hopefully I can rig everything up correctly.  Just curious, what kind of prop is that you're using?  I like it!  :)

Thanks Jim.   It took a bit of figuring out at first.. but it worked out quite well.  :)  The programming will depends on which ESC and Timer you’re running,  as they do varies quite a bit.   For example:  with any Castle Creation ESCs,  you’ll need a computer for the programming, and the FM-9 timer will need it’s programmer box.   and compares to Igor’s iAcc (Active Timer) set up..  it uses the Jeti Box for both ESC and the Timer for programming which is much simpler. and setting the rpm is very different compares to the Hubins.   With Castle Creation ESC.. I use Norm Whittle’s recommendations for the settings.  Other adjustments could be made to optimize the run with the governor settings.  (either to regulate the speed tighter or response quicker)   it could help soften the exits/bottom corners if is needed.   On the hard wood mounts.. you could leave some wood further back for the battery tray and the esc to mount to..   The 3-blade prop I’m using is Igors 11x5C , it’s super light!  works very well on the Legacy.    I’m not too familiar with the Brodak set ups,  but I would think they come pre-programmed like the RSM ones. 

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2016, 02:14:17 PM »
The 3-blade prop I’m using is Igors 11x5C , it’s super light!  works very well on the Legacy.    I’m not too familiar with the Brodak set ups,  but I would think they come pre-programmed like the RSM ones. 

Hi Joe!! Yep, I left the aft part of the motor mounts in place principally because I was lazy but what you've stated about using them for the battery tray and esc mount  .... well, now I'm mighty happy I did  ;D!!  As I get closer to final setups, I'll reach out to you for info as to how to acquire a couple of those props.  I'm hoping Dennis has continued to monitor this thread because I'd like to know about the necessity/needs for computerized setup with the components I received, as listed above.  Believe me, from what you've described, it looks like all of this conversion is going to be one heck of a learning curve coated with a thick layer of frustration.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2016, 06:05:49 PM »
Yes Jim, I am keeping an eye on this thread!

Did you get the Brodak F2B ESC that I recommended?  If so it is pre-programmed and plug and play. 
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2016, 07:56:54 AM »
I converted a Vector & a SV11 ARFs to accept the Brodak conversion packages.  Key to that was gutting the fuselage between "F2" and the nose ring.  Here's a few pix on how it was done.  

* By carefully removing the top block I was able to re-use it as a top side battery hatch.  Plan B would have been to substitute a new hatch made form a 3/4" balsa block.

*With the top removed it was easy to get to the beams.  I drilled several holes along the beam right where it meets the doubler, then jigsaw the beam into several short (2.5"?) pieces.  I pulled these out using Channeloc pliers.  I have done this several times before and this was the first time I ever had the ply under the mount delaminate.  Not quite the disaster that it sounds, as the conversion includes a set of 1/8" x 1/14" rails that reinforce the top opening to the battery tray.

Thinking this over, the next time I try this I will simply jigsaw the mounts out close to the surface of the doubler then grind/sand them out til flush.

* F1 helps stabilize the front end - with the mounts out its the last to go.  What's left is a pretty good shell for building in the conversion bits...

BTW, getting both fuselages shown to this stage took about 1 1/2 hrs, so it is not terribly time/labor intensive. 

Also BTW; removing the IC mounting beams saves weight.  The final conversion with all the electric parts installed is 22 grams lighter than the starting point with the beams.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2016, 03:42:24 PM »
 ???  Well, I as I wrote, I received everything that Dennis recommended, read the instructions, then read them again.  Guess what .... I'm lost!!   n~  So, even  considering my hesitation because of the li-po issues, I decided to attempt a test setup just to see if the thing would run, before I install everything in the fuselage similar to the photos from Crist Rigotti's Legacy build.  I searched the site and the web for a few installation photos and either I'm not looking in the right places or there's a definite lack of installation pictures for comparison.  At any rate, here's a shot of my "test" setup.  The motor is mounted on a block of maple which is clamped to the workbench.  My question is two fold: 1. Is there a polarity issue when plugging the three wires into the ESC? and 2. Once the battery is plugged in and the button is pushed, how can I stop the thing once it starts spinning?  Is it wise to just unplug the battery?  I'm sure there will be other questions but that's enough for now.   

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2016, 03:51:48 PM »
  • It is not wise to just unplug the battery -- Bad Things can happen to the ESC if you do.
  • If the timer has a button you should be able to press that and make it turn off.
  • If not, you should be able to unplug the timer from the ESC
  • Have you ever installed a 3-phase motor in a commercial plant?  Our motors are the same -- just plug the three wires in, give it a whirl, and if it goes backwards reverse any two wires
  • Pursuant to that, you may want to tape things down right under the prop, so the wires don't get sucked up in there if it starts in reverse
  • First time around you can do it with no prop

I hope this helps.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2016, 05:16:10 PM »
yeah - take the prop off... 

you will be surprised how powerful the motor is and believe me when it lifts your rig off the bench and you are trying to figure out how to stop it - bad things will happen.


hubin timer - you can push the button to stop the timer

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Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2016, 05:59:00 PM »
 :D  Okeey dokee!  Thanks guys!  So, it will be all right to run it without the prop .... great!  And just to make sure I understand, I can push the red button to start the motor, per the instructions, and if need be, press it again to stop the motor at some point during the run.  Okay, I think I'm ready to experiment ;)!  I guess the next big thing to figure out is how best to mount that big ol' potentiometer (I assume to be the RPM pot)  :-\  Of the various E-models I've seen, I don't remember seeing anyone with something like this mounted to the side of their plane!  ???  :-\


Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2016, 06:10:20 PM »
Which version of the timer is that?

You won't be playing with the RPM all the time -- if you only have access to it with the hatch off you should be fine.  Do mount it so that you can reach in there with the motor running and not chop bits off of yourself.  It really Does Not Do to spatter blood on your neighbor's 20-point finish. 

I believe that the procedure for setting RPM with the pot-equipped timers is to measure with a tach and diddle the pot until you're happy.  You won't need to do that much.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2016, 07:42:46 PM »
:D  Okeey dokee!  Thanks guys!  So, it will be all right to run it without the prop .... great!  And just to make sure I understand, I can push the red button to start the motor, per the instructions, and if need be, press it again to stop the motor at some point during the run.  Okay, I think I'm ready to experiment ;)!  I guess the next big thing to figure out is how best to mount that big ol' potentiometer (I assume to be the RPM pot)  :-\  Of the various E-models I've seen, I don't remember seeing anyone with something like this mounted to the side of their plane!  ???  :-\

Tim & Wynn pretty well summed it up - everything has been said but not everybody has said it! 

About the stress - I know what you mean because I was EXACTLY where you are when I did my first set-up. When I first started mine - nothing happened!  The system I had used a small activating switch and there was a broken solder joint.  Fixed that, it worked, and I felt like I OWNED it!

The Brodak hardware all comes pre-wired and ready to plug & play - hopefully taking a little bit of that stress out of the equation.

Plug the 3 motor wires into the ESC - you have an exactly 50% chance of getting the correct motor rotation first try.  As noted above, if it runs backwards, shut it off and switch ANY two of 3 wires and try again.  I used to mark the connectors with tape - but I do not bother anymore.  Its less bother to just check & correct it. (yes, I have got to the flight line with a motor that ran backwards when started - twice!)

The START button is also the STOP button - unless you let it run out the flight duration time you have set.

Will Hubin makes lots of timers, I selected his manual timer with the RPM fine tuning pot because it is as close to a "needle valve" as you can get and (generally) "newbie friendly".   Will originally built timers like this for people who like the Castle "High Gov" governor mode and wanted a refined way to set the RPM. 

There are 3 pots on the timer, their functions are called out on the timer board. This timer has a pot adjustment for start-up delay, another pot for flight duration and two pots for setting the RPM. The "coarse" RPM adjustment is on the timer board and is intended to get the RPM to within 500 rpm - in reality you can usually set it right where you want it.  If you miss the RPM, then the remote pot is a fine-tune, with a range of 500 RPM.  It is suitable to - well, fine tune the setting you want.  It is also handy for those of us locked into the glow engine ritual of changing the settings every flight (you will learn to forget that habit!)

As for the size of the pot, I am installing one now and plan to cut down the length of the shaft.  Looks like I could remove about 1/2 of it and never miss it.

By the way, lots of folks settle on Will Hubin's FM-9 timer SYSTEM which incudes a box for programming the timer.  It is more expensive to start out with but generally a good idea if you plan on building a lot of electric birds.  Write to Will directly to get his prices and lead time.

Functionally the timers will all drive the ESC the same way, it boils down to which methods do you feel comfortable with and how much do you want to invest.

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2016, 01:02:35 PM »
Thanks guys!  Hi Dennis!  Well, here's where I am at the moment:  Last evening, I tried using my Venom Pro Charger to charge the 4C 3500mah battery to get a test run of the motor but I wasn’t sure the battery was charging because when it finished, what I thought was a charging cycle, I plugged it into the setup and nothing happened.  I went back and re-read the instructions for the ESC, the timer and my charger, checked the connections and again nothing.  I pulled out the GT Power Charger that I ordered from Brodak a few years ago, that I never used, read the instructions and figured I’d give it a try tomorrow because it was 1952 and I was hungry and tired.  Today, around 1330 or so I came into the workshop and I began by re-checking the battery charge on the 14.8 volt/30C/3500mah battery for the Legacy so I could get a test run on the motor.  Nothing happened when I plugged it into the ESC so I decided to try charging it using the GT Power Charger that I mentioned and it seemed a bit simpler to interpret and setup but still I wasn’t sure it, the battery was charging because it seemed to finish rather quickly because the internal fan shutoff and there were two steady green lights and two red lights.

Out of curiosity I tried a different battery, an 11.1 volt/3S1P/1300mah battery that I bought from Brodak back when I bought the charger.  When I plugged it up a noted the readings for two of the cells were in the 60’s and one was in the 80’s but over time I noted that the readings were changing as they should have been.  Nothing like this happened with the larger battery and I’m thinking the larger battery may be bad but I have no real way to know for sure.  After an anxious wait for the “pot to boil” the readings on the little battery were 100 for all three cell indicators and all three cell lights were green and the little internal fan was shutoff.  In the mean time, I checked your posting on Stunt Hangar and you clarified the motor test setup.  I decided to post what I observed with regards to the battery issue to see what you or others would recommend.  In the meantime, I plugged the smaller battery into the circuit with great hopes!  I pressed the red button ...... Nothing!!  ??? I pressed again and again ..... Nothing!!  ??? I checked the connections, looked for any breaks ..... Nothing!!  :'(  HELP!!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2016, 01:54:47 PM »
Well, just to make sure I wasn’t losing my mind I opened up all the electric motor setups stuff I had ordered from Brodak’s a while ago for the LOCKHEED NEPTUNE (that I never finished  :-[ ) and rigged a set to test.  Well, to my joy, it worked exactly as advertised.  Using the 11.1V battery the ESC beeped when the battery was plugged in and the little motor spun up shortly after the button was pushed and even shut off when the button was pressed the second time.  I’m pleased!  Well, I went back and checked the LEGACY setup again, step by step.  The battery checked good but when plugged into the ESC there was no initializing beep.  Any suggestions??

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2016, 03:17:35 PM »
Couple suggestions:

With the GT charger red lights means its charging, green lights mean that cell is properly peaked - the meter will read "100" before the cell is peaked/balanced.  Thus you leave it plugged in until you have 4 green lights.

I have not used the Venom charger but I'd bet there is a mode that will display voltages on each cell while you are charging.

The troubling thing is that you are not getting a initialization beep from the ESC - you should be hearing something.  That suggests trouble from either the Timer or the ESC.  Then when you hit the START button on the timer you should get about a 1 second blip of the motor just barely turning over, then it stops and waits for how ever long you set the DELAY for.  On the bench, turn the Delay pot all the way to the left - that is the minimum setting.

Try this: please take the timer from the "little" set-up and plug it into the other.  Make sure the brown wire from the ESC is on the GROUND pin on the timer.  When you power it up, listen for the initializing beeps.  If you get those then go ahead an hit the START button.  It should power up (with a slightly soft ramp up to RPM)  assuming it runs, hit the START button again to shut it off...

BTW, that motor should run (rather anemically) on the 3 cell pack.  Good enough for a bench test anyway...

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2016, 04:13:39 PM »
Okee dokee!  The GT Charger is functioning as designed.  During this interim I put the larger battery back on the charger and all four green lights ans showed 100.  As for the Venom Pro, I have been very pleased and impressed with its performance and capabilities across multiple battery chemistries, many of which I'll never need to access.

As you suggested, swapped the timer with the smaller timer for the LOCKHEED NEPTUNE, which I did, and the test setup didn’t work.  Again, I went into my box of “goodies" and found a BH-1683, 35A Aerowind ESC that I had ordered quite a while back but never used.  I opened the package and substituted it for the LEGACY's F2B Hornet ESC and everything functioned as expected using either battery or timer set.
 
I’m pleased.  It looks like the F2B Hornet ESC is faulty.  I wonder if I can return it for an exchange/replacement?  Any suggestions?

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2016, 04:36:53 PM »
If that F2B Hornet thingie came from Brodaks give them a call -- they've got a good reputation for returns.  The one time I had a return issue with them I ended up with extra stuff, because they worked so hard to make it good.
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2016, 05:21:27 PM »
Okee dokee!  The GT Charger is functioning as designed.  During this interim I put the larger battery back on the charger and all four green lights ans showed 100.  As for the Venom Pro, I have been very pleased and impressed with its performance and capabilities across multiple battery chemistries, many of which I'll never need to access.

As you suggested, swapped the timer with the smaller timer for the LOCKHEED NEPTUNE, which I did, and the test setup didn’t work.  Again, I went into my box of “goodies" and found a BH-1683, 35A Aerowind ESC that I had ordered quite a while back but never used.  I opened the package and substituted it for the LEGACY's F2B Hornet ESC and everything functioned as expected using either battery or timer set.
 
I’m pleased.  It looks like the F2B Hornet ESC is faulty.  I wonder if I can return it for an exchange/replacement?  Any suggestions?


DEFINITELY return for replacement.  Sorry for the inconvenience.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2016, 05:00:21 PM »
DEFINITELY return for replacement.  Sorry for the inconvenience.
:)  Greetings!  Not to worry!  Not to worry! I was pleasantly surprised to see that the package from Brodak’s arrived today containing the replacement battery and Brodak 40 AMP ESC.  I decided to test the ESC so I set everything up as previously and when I plugged up the battery for the Legacy (Vant 30C, 3500 MAH, 14.8 volt), there were no beeps and when the start button was pressed, nothing happened again.  I tried resetting all the connections, a second time, with no results.   I decided to try a different, smaller motor (Aerowind 2815/09 and an Aerowind 35 amp ESC and it functioned as designed, twice.  Then I substituted the motor for the LEGACY motor (Aerowind 2826/06) and it functioned as designed.

Next, I substituted the replacement Brodak 40 AMP ESC for the 35 amp ESC but using the smaller motor and that setup functioned as designed.  Now I’m puzzled!  I went back to the original setup using the 40 amp ESC, timer, large motor and battery for the Legacy.  This time I tried wiggling the battery connections and after a minute or two, I got the ESC to beep.  I pressed the start button and the motor ran, as it should have.  I unplugged the battery waited a couple of minutes and tried it a few more times.  Each time I had to wiggle / rock the battery/ESC connection until it beeped; but it did beep and the motor did run.  I took a close look at the ESC connector and it looked like there was electrical arc pitting in the top side of the connector.  I took my X-Acto blade and lightly scraped the surface to remove the pitting then tried to plug it in again.  Needless to say, I had to repeatedly wiggle the connection to get the beeps and subsequent motor run but each time I inspected the ESC connector, the pitting was evident.  I made the same test two more times with the very same results, pitting on the ESC connector.  I cannot see or clean the inside of the battery’s connector.  What can I say; at least the motor runs but only if I wiggle the connector and repeatedly clean the ESC connector after each run. :-[

I realize there's a learning curve to everything so I'll give it a few more tests and checks but Man .... I'm beginning to think I just might replace those hardwood beams, mount my OS four stroke and go flying!! ;)  LL~


Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2016, 07:44:17 AM »
OK, now THAT is a problem I have encountered.

The T- Plugs (Dean's Ultra) main power plugs have spring tabs on them that are supposed to keep the contact snug and usually it works fine.  HOWEVER it is possible to plug it in with the spring tab missing the slot and going outside the plug.  When you do this there is nothing holding the contact, and you get something like you described - jiggling it to get (& intermittently lose) contact.  I had this problem on a profile - the spring tab is very flexible and its amazing how easy it was to plug it in incorrectly.

I am pretty sure that is your issue.  BTW, I got your first ESC in the mail.  Tried it out this morning and it initialized & started up just like it was supposed to - I am guessing the same thing was happening for you on it.

I STRONGLY recommend using the Max Products arming plug system.  You can take your time and take care in plugging the battery in, even inspect the connection to make sure it is right, then arm for flight using the arming plug.


Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2016, 08:31:39 AM »
 :)  Happy Easter!! After coming into the workshop before going to church, I powered up the computer and began looking over the setup from last evening.  Then the Lord the idea into my head to just slightly bend the positive pole of the ESC connector and give it a try.  I am very pleased to report that the test setup functioned as designed repeatedly #^.  A few minutes after that I looked at this site and saw your response.  What a joy and thrill to receive confirmation  ;D.  I do feel embarrassed about reporting a bad ESC when it was not but I am pleased to know that it was not faulty.  The fault was mine .... in that I didn't know what was wrong, what to expect or what to do to correct it  :-[.  At any rate, I can now move forward to begin installation of the components into the fuselage  :D.
 
Now before I go, what is "Max Products arming plug system"??  What is it used for?  I do not understand the setup .... I thought it was sufficient to use just what I have .... just install the components, mount the battery, press the red button and fly ??? !!  I take it this is incorrect  ???.

Offline Target

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2016, 09:15:58 AM »
Regards,
Chris
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Online Mike Haverly

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2016, 08:26:17 PM »
I think most of us use Part NO. 6970.  I've used them on every electric model I have.  Others are more attractive, but these are fairly light and work well.
Mike

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2016, 11:43:41 PM »
Now before I go, what is "Max Products arming plug system"??  What is it used for?  I do not understand the setup .... I thought it was sufficient to use just what I have .... just install the components, mount the battery, press the red button and fly ??? !!  I take it this is incorrect  ???.

You need to read the pertinent rules.  The digest (and you should read the rules!) is that if it's an electric plane, and you leave it unrestrained with the battery connected to the ESC, then you'll be disqualified.  It's a safety measure to prevent airplanes in the pits or whatnot from starting up unattended.

For a profile you can get away with unplugging the battery.  In theory you could do that with a full-fuselage stunter, but most people prefer to use an arming plug -- the routine is to put the battery in at your leisure in the pits, while swapping lies with all the slime-powered guys who are fueling up.  Then you walk the plane to the circle and plug in the arming plug, after which either someone holds on to the airplane or you hold onto the handle.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2016, 09:34:41 AM »
 :)  Thanks guys!  I appreciate your patience.  I had read the rules but with this being my first venture into this genre of the hobby some of the concepts and hookups are a bit foreign to me.  I guess I'm still a bit "ol' skool" in my thinking because I had it drilled into my head from a young age "If ya' ain't ready to use it ....unplug it"!!  Chris, thanks for the pic and the link; that arming plug looks like a pretty kool add-on, if I have room for it in the forward section of the fuselage. 

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2016, 01:26:57 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D Dennis!!  Dennis!!  Dennis!!  I don't care what anyone says ..... YOU DA' MAN!! ;D #^ ;D  I did it!!  I did it!!  And it's all because of you and your expertise and patience.  THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!  Yesterday I completed the ARC Legacy and I gave it its maiden flight this morning.  It was absolutely awesome!!  Nice, smooth, quiet, positive pull, perfectly flat and level.  I thought about posting the build log and detailed photos but I doubt anyone else would be interested in my trip from "box to landing".  Hopefully I can bring it with me to Brodak's and I can watch you or one of the expert pilots put it through its full range of paces.  I'm a builder more so than a flyer.

Jim Carter

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2016, 10:40:50 PM »
Hey Carter! I'm always interested in your build logs... Maybe I'll learn something! Lol

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2016, 09:13:51 AM »
Hey Carter! I'm always interested in your build logs... Maybe I'll learn something! Lol
Hey Bro Dane!!  :D Well, for about the past 20+ years or so, for nearly every model I've built, be it a plane, ship or whatever, I've been keeping a daily log of what I do.  I don't write like the magazine articles and I guess that's why I could never get any of them published back when the magazines were the predominant means of sharing new construction.  Each of my build logs is somewhat unpolished in the way it's written but it contains my thoughts, problems, corrections, modifications, joys and frustrations associated with each build and with many of the more recent build logs, I've taken a myriad of step-by-step construction / assembly photos.  For example, the build log for this project, Brodak ARC Legacy, is 24 pages long with nearly 100 photos.  Do you remember the Brodak Legacy kit I was blessed to build for Bro Colin Anderson over on the Brotherhood of the Ring site?  Well, the build log for his model was 47 pages long and included nearly 200 step-by-step construction photos to include the modification of the removable wing.  Heck, the build log for my B-29, that I recently completed, from the box to its first contest show is 136 pages long contains just over 500 photos  ;D.  But .... if for some reason .... I should ever build another, I know where every nook and cranny, pitfall or joy is located  ;D.  All that said, are you shur' you wanna' see it??   ??? ???  LL~ LL~

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2016, 09:28:03 AM »
Either you or Colin showed me the build log on his legacy. I loved it. You know I'm a big fan of your building!

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2016, 03:19:39 PM »
CONGRATS Jim!  Glad I (and the others who commented) could help.  You showed some pretty good persistence to soldier on through the set-backs you had and bring it  "home".  As for the power and the flying, I never had any doubts about that.  By all means bring it to Carmichaels, I'd love to see it.

I think it would be beneficial to others on this site to see more of your build pictures, especially those around your electric mods.

Now that you have successfully built and flown an electric model you are now a qualified GURU for any other electric builders-in-training.   010! BW@
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2016, 09:58:29 AM »
Man, I give you all the credit for your expertise, that's for shur'  ;D!  Yeah, I may be able to build a little but all the skill in the world means nothing without folk like you who know what it takes to make it work  H^^!  Anything less is called a wall knick-nack a.k.a. "hangar queen"!!   LL~ LL~  I'll see what I can do about condensing my thoughts into something readable/usable for others.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2016, 09:04:13 AM »
 ;D Greetings y'all!!  And a very special "Greetings" to you Dennis  H^^!!  Life has kept me rather busy but since my last posting I've been able to fly the Legacy seven times and I have been really pleased.  I Guess it was on the fourth flight that I switched props to use an APC 12x6E rather than the 13x4.5E that was originally recommended.  Given the soft landing gear struts that came with the kit   :-\ and the need for a bit more ground clearance (we have to fly off somewhat unfinished grass) the smaller prop was just the ticket.  Also, it really seemed to perform (pull) better although I didn't think to compare lap times  :-\.  Ultimately I got fed up with the soft struts  :( and replaced them with two replacement struts from I fabricated from some 1/8" K&S Music wire  ;).  No problems with the struts now ;D!  I can't wait to find someone with the skills to truly put it through its paces   #^.  In the words of Clint Eastwood ".... a man has got to know his limitations"  and I've put enough planes in the dirt "to know my limitations"  LL~ LL~.  I've been able to video a few of the flights by attaching my little "spy" camera to the inboard wing with a bit of velcro.  They're not all that great but I'll try posting the latest one on You Tube.  I've been flying it using a set of .021"x63' lines but a friend of mine suggested using a set of .018"x60' lines as they would be somewhat lighter and may increase performance a bit more.  I suppose I just may have to give it a go, eh  ;D!!

Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2016, 12:02:17 PM »
I've been flying it using a set of .021"x63' lines but a friend of mine suggested using a set of .018"x60' lines as they would be somewhat lighter and may increase performance a bit more.  I suppose I just may have to give it a go, eh  ;D!!

Hi Jim,

Good to hear is coming together..  The .021 lines are definitely too heavy to use on the Legacy.  I would try .018" x 64' eyelet to eyelet, it should work much better.  and fly it at around 5.25-5.35 laps. (depends on the trim and conditions)

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2016, 09:31:34 PM »
Hi Jim,

Good to hear is coming together..  The .021 lines are definitely too heavy to use on the Legacy.  I would try .018" x 64' eyelet to eyelet, it should work much better.  and fly it at around 5.25-5.35 laps. (depends on the trim and conditions)

Thanks Joe!  I'll be getting the lines going in a day or so.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2016, 10:45:59 PM »
60' seems pretty short for a Legacy, even if you're committing "stunt sacrilege" (according to the speed, combat, and carrier guys) and measuring the lines eyelet to eyelet.

I'd start with lines that are the legal 70' from canopy to handle (read the rules if you're not sure), then shorten them up if you feel they're too long.  If you think that's extreme (and folks sometimes criticize me for liking really long lines) then at least start at 65' eyelet to eyelet.  You can always shorten them up.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2016, 05:45:43 AM »
Hi Jim.  Sounds like you and the Legacy are getting along famously. 

I think the 63' lines would be the minimum, and if you work through it per Tim's suggestion the max would probably be about 67'.  I'd probably go about 65' for a nice round number...  As other have suggested .018" is all you need - both per rules and per practical need.  If you add line length and change line diameter, do not be surprised if your tip weight needs to change - but it should be a near wash.  Longer lines will give you a "bigger sky" to fly in - you will not feel so cramped to hold maneuvers to 45 degrees.  You will probably can and will want to bump the RPM up a little - which will also affect your  battery usage, so keep some tabs on it.

About the props:  Smaller diameter can help corners, you can also clip the 13x4.5 down to 12".  The lower pitch requires a few more RPM but the flatter pitch seems to help prevent wind-up in the wind.  (on the other hand the 13" disc can be your friend in the dead calm!)  BTW, I did not see if you posted it, but how much battery ARE you using?

Are you still planning on going to Carmichaels?
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2016, 08:25:31 AM »
Hi Jim.  Sounds like you and the Legacy are getting along famously. 

I think the 63' lines would be the minimum, and if you work through it per Tim's suggestion the max would probably be about 67'.  I'd probably go about 65' for a nice round number...  As other have suggested .018" is all you need - both per rules and per practical need.  If you add line length and change line diameter, do not be surprised if your tip weight needs to change - but it should be a near wash.  Longer lines will give you a "bigger sky" to fly in - you will not feel so cramped to hold maneuvers to 45 degrees.  You will probably can and will want to bump the RPM up a little - which will also affect your  battery usage, so keep some tabs on it.

About the props:  Smaller diameter can help corners, you can also clip the 13x4.5 down to 12".  The lower pitch requires a few more RPM but the flatter pitch seems to help prevent wind-up in the wind.  (on the other hand the 13" disc can be your friend in the dead calm!)  BTW, I did not see if you posted it, but how much battery ARE you using?

Are you still planning on going to Carmichaels?
Howdy!  I'm sure hoping to come up to PA!  My youngest daughter had her first child, a boy, after a troublesome pregnancy a couple of days ago and my wife has been "trippin'", if you know what I mean!  She doesn't want to go anywhere and feels I should stay .... just in case and to be helpful!  I asked doing what??  Well, the swelling around my eye should be gone in a few days!!   LL~ LL~  Thanks for the tips on the propellers.  I definitely will be doing a bit more experimenting in that area.  As for the battery, I started keeping a log of sorts but I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the results.  Basically I start with a topped off battery, time the run from start button to motor shutdown, allow it to cool, plug it into the Brodak GT Charger and record the cell readings, plug the charger in and then time the recharge to 100% per cell (plus the charger fan shuts off).

DATE     FLT TIME MINUTES   CELL #1   CELL #2   CELL #3   CELL #4   Recharge Time/Hr
04/23/2016    03:50            87           88           90           88           01:00
04/26/2016    3:15&3:30          0           0           54           58           03:30
04/30/2016    04:45            62           56           65           66           02:30
05/07/2016    05:45            41           20           56           58           03:10
05/14/2016    06:05           15           0           45           55           03:30
05/17/2016    06:09           47           39           47           59           04:00+


Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2016, 10:37:45 AM »
Does the charger have a readout of the charge put back in the battery?  LiPo batteries are pretty good as far as having the amount of discharge equal the amount of recharge -- the easiest way to see how much you've discharged a battery is to compare the amount put back in to the rated capacity of the battery.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2016, 04:19:00 PM »
Hi Jim

I am not sure you can use the black charger to get the info you need on battery usage, it reports info as percentages, not actual voltage or actual mah in.  You mentioned another charger you have, does it show voltages and mah in while you charge?

did I read your last charge right - did it take over 4 hr to restore the pack?  That seems longish.  The black charger has 3 selectable charge rates, for your packs you should be using the 2A rate, which means worst case your packs would take just under 2 hours to charge. Unless....

To "feed" the charger, are you using a 12v battery or a 12v power supply?  This can REALLY affect the duration of the recharge time, as well as the life of your car battery!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2016, 06:53:27 PM »
Does the charger have a readout of the charge put back in the battery?  LiPo batteries are pretty good as far as having the amount of discharge equal the amount of recharge -- the easiest way to see how much you've discharged a battery is to compare the amount put back in to the rated capacity of the battery.
I'm not sure how to interpret the readings.  Dennis responded that the readout is in percentages.  So basically, I'm guessing the numbers on the charger reflect what was left in the battery after flight.  Nevertheless, the battery is 100% at the time of pressing the start button.  After landing, cool down and getting it on the bench, I recharge the battery back to the 100% reading.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2016, 07:06:28 PM »
... did I read your last charge right - did it take over 4 hr to restore the pack?  That seems longish.  The black charger has 3 selectable charge rates, for your packs you should be using the 2A rate, which means worst case your packs would take just under 2 hours to charge. Unless....

To "feed" the charger, are you using a 12v battery or a 12v power supply?  This can REALLY affect the duration of the recharge time, as well as the life of your car battery!

Yep!  I annotated it as 4hr+ because at 3.5 hours, cells 1 thru 3 were at 100% but cell 4 was reflecting 99%.  Unfortunately, I had to shut down and run some errands with the wife for the rest of the afternoon and evening.  The next morning I plugged it back in and it took about 45 minutes before all cells were at 100% and the little charger fan shut off.  As for the GT Charger it is set on the 2 amp setting and I've been using an AC powered Venom Pro Adapter with 15VDC 5amp output.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2018, 02:26:52 PM »
 ;D  Hi y'all!  Well, I finally put the Legacy back on the workbench.  The last time I flew it was back in September of 2017 when I apparently messed up my battery  :(.  I had the flight time set to what I thought was about the 8th notch on the Hornet 40A ESC flight timer.  According to the instruction sheet, that should have given about 5 minute 11 seconds :-\.  However, it kept running, cycling between what seemed to be the shut down blip back to whatever was left in the full power mode.  When it did stop and land, the battery was hot so I unplugged it and took it out of the plane and set it aside to cool  :-[ .  The next day I went to charge it but noticed that it seemed really fat, tight and somewhat smushy  %^@.  Needless to say, I took it to the city recycling center and turned it in >:(.  That was the last time I tried messing with it, until today.  I installed a Spectrum receiver thus bypassing the flight timer, start button and RPM potentiometer.  I did retain the Maxx Products Power Plug.  I was very pleased to see that everything functioned as designed.  It seems it will reach full power at around 3/4 throttle movement of the transmitter as I cannot detect any significant increase in RPM, by ear (I don't have a tach) ???.  I cycled the throttle a few times to get a feel for the positioning of high, low and what should be taxi and landing speed to the off position.  I'm excited to see how it operates in-flight tomorrow (hopefully)  ;)!  I just need to figure out a positive way to hold my Spektrum transmitter and avoid bumping the throttle at the wrong time  %^@!!  Just curious, other than for scale contests, is the use of throttle control allowable for stunt contests  ????

Offline TDM

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2018, 08:53:53 AM »
You might be killing the battery with excessive use. You should be using a max of 80% of battery capacity per flight. I see some 90% capacity used and i am getting an alarm bell going. What prop are you using? You might consider going to a lighter prop. Personally i like the XOAR props. They are light CNC 3D machined balanced and the pitch so far on the one i checked is spot on. Well worth the 10-12$ for the props we are using. 
What motor do you use?
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Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2018, 09:07:59 AM »
A throttle is not allowed for stunt.  Timer, yes.  Throttle, no.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2018, 10:26:29 AM »
A throttle is not allowed for stunt.  Timer, yes.  Throttle, no.
Doggone'it! :-\  I tried flying it this weekend and had a ball!  To be able to do a rolling taxi ... takeoff and gradually power up through level flight, perform  a few stunts ... throttle back for touchdown, to full stop then power up again for a couple of laps to a full stop landing !!  Man, that was fun!!  ;D  Best of all, I didn't fry the battery .... at least I don't think so.  A couple of hours after the battery had cooled down, the charger showed reading in the lid 60% -to low 70% range for all four cells.  Oh well, I had fun!

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2018, 10:50:23 AM »
You might be killing the battery with excessive use. You should be using a max of 80% of battery capacity per flight. I see some 90% capacity used and i am getting an alarm bell going. What prop are you using? You might consider going to a lighter prop. Personally i like the XOAR props. They are light CNC 3D machined balanced and the pitch so far on the one i checked is spot on. Well worth the 10-12$ for the props we are using. 
What motor do you use?
I'm using the same setup Denny recommended when I first started this project: the Arrowind 2826, 4Sx3500 pack and the new Brodak F2B Hornet ESC with APC 12x6E rather than the 13x4.5E because of ground clearance in our grass field.  Honestly, on our fixed income, I crash too much to justify investing in a suitable range of those props just for experimenting but I do appreciate the suggestion and if "life" changes my finances, maybe I can move to the next level but I just can't do it at this point in time.  I need to feel find someway and feel comfortable to just let the thing run until the battery consistently reaches its "low/safe" point and have the ECS give a good, recognizable low power blip (in as you say the 80% used range) before shutoff like a good stunt engine.  I have only one good battery (new N.I.B) left out of three and when that one goes, I think I'm done with electrics  :-\

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Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
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Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2018, 03:44:27 PM »
I'm using the same setup Denny recommended when I first started this project: the Arrowind 2826, 4Sx3500 pack and the new Brodak F2B Hornet ESC with APC 12x6E rather than the 13x4.5E because of ground clearance in our grass field.  Honestly, on our fixed income, I crash too much to justify investing in a suitable range of those props just for experimenting but I do appreciate the suggestion and if "life" changes my finances, maybe I can move to the next level but I just can't do it at this point in time.  I need to feel find someway and feel comfortable to just let the thing run until the battery consistently reaches its "low/safe" point and have the ECS give a good, recognizable low power blip (in as you say the 80% used range) before shutoff like a good stunt engine.  I have only one good battery (new N.I.B) left out of three and when that one goes, I think I'm done with electrics  :-\

The ESC doesn’t give a low power blip. Most ESCs can be programmed to do either a soft or hard shutdown on low voltage, but the 5 second warning at the end of your flight time, and the flight time for that matter, are controlled by the timer.
For what it’s worth, this Summer I was flying with a guy in Maine that has that same Hornet ESC and the timer with the coarse and fine RPM adjustments. He is less than thrilled with that system, and chose to unplug the fine adjuster because it was giving him grief.
You ruin batteries by either drawing them down too deep or not storing them at storage voltage. From your description of a hot, then puffy, battery, I suspect you’re drawing them down too far. STOP DOING THAT!
Set your timer for a short flight, then check remaining capacity. Recharge your battery. Increase the flight time a little bit, then do it again. Sneak up on it, and stop when you either reach your desired flight time, or you reach 20% remaining in your battery.
Many people are having good success with electric power. Give up on it if you choose to, but rest assured, it CAN work.
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.


Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2018, 04:19:50 PM »
The ESC doesn’t give a low power blip. Most ESCs can be programmed to do either a soft or hard shutdown on low voltage, but the 5 second warning at the end of your flight time, and the flight time for that matter, are controlled by the timer.
For what it’s worth, this Summer I was flying with a guy in Maine that has that same Hornet ESC and the timer with the coarse and fine RPM adjustments. He is less than thrilled with that system, and chose to unplug the fine adjuster because it was giving him grief.
You ruin batteries by either drawing them down too deep or not storing them at storage voltage. From your description of a hot, then puffy, battery, I suspect you’re drawing them down too far. STOP DOING THAT!
Set your timer for a short flight, then check remaining capacity. Recharge your battery. Increase the flight time a little bit, then do it again. Sneak up on it, and stop when you either reach your desired flight time, or you reach 20% remaining in your battery.
Many people are having good success with electric power. Give up on it if you choose to, but rest assured, it CAN work.
Thanks Jim!  Okay, I know the timer would give a warning then shut down the motor but I thought the ESC would also shut the usage down when the power went below a certain level to avoid unbalancing the battery   ???  Guess not, eh :-\  I believe the first battery was drawn down too low because there were multiple low speed blips and each time it would spin back up to whatever the battery had left for full power then it would low bower blip and then repeat itself.  It did this about 5 or 6 times.  When it landed, I removed the battery and it was really hot and "fat" thus my decision to get rid of it.  I'll try your idea of "sneak up on it".

Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2018, 06:11:06 PM »
Thanks Jim!  Okay, I know the timer would give a warning then shut down the motor but I thought the ESC would also shut the usage down when the power went below a certain level to avoid unbalancing the battery   ???  Guess not, eh :-\  I believe the first battery was drawn down too low because there were multiple low speed blips and each time it would spin back up to whatever the battery had left for full power then it would low bower blip and then repeat itself.  It did this about 5 or 6 times.  When it landed, I removed the battery and it was really hot and "fat" thus my decision to get rid of it.  I'll try your idea of "sneak up on it".

As I said, most ESCs have a low voltage cutoff that can be set for a hard, abrupt cutoff, or a soft, gradual slowdown and stop. The voltage at which this happens can sometimes be adjusted, it’s typically set at 3.3v per cell.
The ESC doesn’t monitor each cell individually, but it “knows” how many cells your pack has based on starting voltage. Those beeps you hear when you plug in your battery indicates the cell count.
So, if your ESC is set to shut down at 3.3v, and you’re running 4 cells, the ESC will initiate shut down when the pack is at 13.2v. That doesn’t mean all of the cells have reached 3.3v, a weaker cell might be significantly lower.
Of course, 3.3v is way beyond too low for good battery health, but this is under load. Once the load is gone, the battery will recover somewhat, but you’ll still have less than 20% remaining.
I have no idea why your RPM kept cycling up and down as you describe. Sometimes timers and ESCs can have incompatible settings programmed into them and they do weird things. I’m not familiar with that Hornet setup at all.
Did you time that flight? Do you know how many amps your system is drawing? What’s your lap time? If the airplane is going fast for a long time you’re pulling lots of power out of the battery. During your first two minute flight, get a lap time. If it’s less than 5 seconds per lap turn down the RPM. Then start sneaking up on your flight time as described before.
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.

Offline TDM

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Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2018, 07:36:38 AM »
One last thing. If you have to give a battery hours to cool off you are stressing the system to the max. And you are not only stressing the battery only you are stressing everything. The most likely cause of all the stress in the system comes from a too small of a motor. If the motor is small it requires a lot of Amps for the given voltage to turn the desired prop to the correct rpm, this in turn will put pressure on the ESC than has to pump the power in the motor and at same time it demands power from the battery which gives up the juice at high rate, and now the battery gets hot. More over low voltage means high heat high voltage means low heat, and think of heat as wasted energy. Heavy prop will also eat energy for nothing in return other than more gyroscopic precession.

I think the lighter prop alone will make a big difference in your system. Also the bigger motor will relieve the rest of the pressure to the point where you no longer have any more problems.

Personally I believe we try to under size the motors so much to get things light we neglect the negative impact it will create upstream. Impact in both efficiency and weight. We need to use larger batteries too here is an example In my plane AXI vs Joker: AXI is 30g lighter this motor is usually used in conjunction with a 6S 2800 mAh pack (351g), Joker much more powerfull I could get by using a 2000mAh pack (if I could fin it) and suppose I hack up a 6S 2200 that pack will weigh 296g perhaps even less if i can go to a 2000mAh pack. So if you do the math AXI plus Battery (2800 mAh 6S)  526g, Joker plus battery (theoretical 296) 511g prhaps even less than that. So this is what I call rob Peter to pay Paul anything you spend in weight on the motor you save on the battery (perhaps even extra) and you have a system that runs with ease at low Amp (my average amp is 16A) easy on battery and ESC creating little heat (wasted energy) which in turn can open the door for an even smaller battery yet, in adition to that you might get by with a 30A ESC if that is all you need lighter wiring.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi


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