News:



  • April 26, 2024, 12:43:35 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy  (Read 22932 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2016, 10:37:45 AM »
Does the charger have a readout of the charge put back in the battery?  LiPo batteries are pretty good as far as having the amount of discharge equal the amount of recharge -- the easiest way to see how much you've discharged a battery is to compare the amount put back in to the rated capacity of the battery.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4342
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2016, 04:19:00 PM »
Hi Jim

I am not sure you can use the black charger to get the info you need on battery usage, it reports info as percentages, not actual voltage or actual mah in.  You mentioned another charger you have, does it show voltages and mah in while you charge?

did I read your last charge right - did it take over 4 hr to restore the pack?  That seems longish.  The black charger has 3 selectable charge rates, for your packs you should be using the 2A rate, which means worst case your packs would take just under 2 hours to charge. Unless....

To "feed" the charger, are you using a 12v battery or a 12v power supply?  This can REALLY affect the duration of the recharge time, as well as the life of your car battery!
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Jim Carter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 953
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2016, 06:53:27 PM »
Does the charger have a readout of the charge put back in the battery?  LiPo batteries are pretty good as far as having the amount of discharge equal the amount of recharge -- the easiest way to see how much you've discharged a battery is to compare the amount put back in to the rated capacity of the battery.
I'm not sure how to interpret the readings.  Dennis responded that the readout is in percentages.  So basically, I'm guessing the numbers on the charger reflect what was left in the battery after flight.  Nevertheless, the battery is 100% at the time of pressing the start button.  After landing, cool down and getting it on the bench, I recharge the battery back to the 100% reading.

Offline Jim Carter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 953
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2016, 07:06:28 PM »
... did I read your last charge right - did it take over 4 hr to restore the pack?  That seems longish.  The black charger has 3 selectable charge rates, for your packs you should be using the 2A rate, which means worst case your packs would take just under 2 hours to charge. Unless....

To "feed" the charger, are you using a 12v battery or a 12v power supply?  This can REALLY affect the duration of the recharge time, as well as the life of your car battery!

Yep!  I annotated it as 4hr+ because at 3.5 hours, cells 1 thru 3 were at 100% but cell 4 was reflecting 99%.  Unfortunately, I had to shut down and run some errands with the wife for the rest of the afternoon and evening.  The next morning I plugged it back in and it took about 45 minutes before all cells were at 100% and the little charger fan shut off.  As for the GT Charger it is set on the 2 amp setting and I've been using an AC powered Venom Pro Adapter with 15VDC 5amp output.

Offline Jim Carter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 953
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2018, 02:26:52 PM »
 ;D  Hi y'all!  Well, I finally put the Legacy back on the workbench.  The last time I flew it was back in September of 2017 when I apparently messed up my battery  :(.  I had the flight time set to what I thought was about the 8th notch on the Hornet 40A ESC flight timer.  According to the instruction sheet, that should have given about 5 minute 11 seconds :-\.  However, it kept running, cycling between what seemed to be the shut down blip back to whatever was left in the full power mode.  When it did stop and land, the battery was hot so I unplugged it and took it out of the plane and set it aside to cool  :-[ .  The next day I went to charge it but noticed that it seemed really fat, tight and somewhat smushy  %^@.  Needless to say, I took it to the city recycling center and turned it in >:(.  That was the last time I tried messing with it, until today.  I installed a Spectrum receiver thus bypassing the flight timer, start button and RPM potentiometer.  I did retain the Maxx Products Power Plug.  I was very pleased to see that everything functioned as designed.  It seems it will reach full power at around 3/4 throttle movement of the transmitter as I cannot detect any significant increase in RPM, by ear (I don't have a tach) ???.  I cycled the throttle a few times to get a feel for the positioning of high, low and what should be taxi and landing speed to the off position.  I'm excited to see how it operates in-flight tomorrow (hopefully)  ;)!  I just need to figure out a positive way to hold my Spektrum transmitter and avoid bumping the throttle at the wrong time  %^@!!  Just curious, other than for scale contests, is the use of throttle control allowable for stunt contests  ????

Offline TDM

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2018, 08:53:53 AM »
You might be killing the battery with excessive use. You should be using a max of 80% of battery capacity per flight. I see some 90% capacity used and i am getting an alarm bell going. What prop are you using? You might consider going to a lighter prop. Personally i like the XOAR props. They are light CNC 3D machined balanced and the pitch so far on the one i checked is spot on. Well worth the 10-12$ for the props we are using. 
What motor do you use?
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2018, 09:07:59 AM »
A throttle is not allowed for stunt.  Timer, yes.  Throttle, no.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Jim Carter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 953
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2018, 10:26:29 AM »
A throttle is not allowed for stunt.  Timer, yes.  Throttle, no.
Doggone'it! :-\  I tried flying it this weekend and had a ball!  To be able to do a rolling taxi ... takeoff and gradually power up through level flight, perform  a few stunts ... throttle back for touchdown, to full stop then power up again for a couple of laps to a full stop landing !!  Man, that was fun!!  ;D  Best of all, I didn't fry the battery .... at least I don't think so.  A couple of hours after the battery had cooled down, the charger showed reading in the lid 60% -to low 70% range for all four cells.  Oh well, I had fun!

Offline Jim Carter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 953
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2018, 10:50:23 AM »
You might be killing the battery with excessive use. You should be using a max of 80% of battery capacity per flight. I see some 90% capacity used and i am getting an alarm bell going. What prop are you using? You might consider going to a lighter prop. Personally i like the XOAR props. They are light CNC 3D machined balanced and the pitch so far on the one i checked is spot on. Well worth the 10-12$ for the props we are using. 
What motor do you use?
I'm using the same setup Denny recommended when I first started this project: the Arrowind 2826, 4Sx3500 pack and the new Brodak F2B Hornet ESC with APC 12x6E rather than the 13x4.5E because of ground clearance in our grass field.  Honestly, on our fixed income, I crash too much to justify investing in a suitable range of those props just for experimenting but I do appreciate the suggestion and if "life" changes my finances, maybe I can move to the next level but I just can't do it at this point in time.  I need to feel find someway and feel comfortable to just let the thing run until the battery consistently reaches its "low/safe" point and have the ECS give a good, recognizable low power blip (in as you say the 80% used range) before shutoff like a good stunt engine.  I have only one good battery (new N.I.B) left out of three and when that one goes, I think I'm done with electrics  :-\

Offline TDM

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Jim Mynes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
  • Chelsea, ME
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2018, 03:44:27 PM »
I'm using the same setup Denny recommended when I first started this project: the Arrowind 2826, 4Sx3500 pack and the new Brodak F2B Hornet ESC with APC 12x6E rather than the 13x4.5E because of ground clearance in our grass field.  Honestly, on our fixed income, I crash too much to justify investing in a suitable range of those props just for experimenting but I do appreciate the suggestion and if "life" changes my finances, maybe I can move to the next level but I just can't do it at this point in time.  I need to feel find someway and feel comfortable to just let the thing run until the battery consistently reaches its "low/safe" point and have the ECS give a good, recognizable low power blip (in as you say the 80% used range) before shutoff like a good stunt engine.  I have only one good battery (new N.I.B) left out of three and when that one goes, I think I'm done with electrics  :-\

The ESC doesn’t give a low power blip. Most ESCs can be programmed to do either a soft or hard shutdown on low voltage, but the 5 second warning at the end of your flight time, and the flight time for that matter, are controlled by the timer.
For what it’s worth, this Summer I was flying with a guy in Maine that has that same Hornet ESC and the timer with the coarse and fine RPM adjustments. He is less than thrilled with that system, and chose to unplug the fine adjuster because it was giving him grief.
You ruin batteries by either drawing them down too deep or not storing them at storage voltage. From your description of a hot, then puffy, battery, I suspect you’re drawing them down too far. STOP DOING THAT!
Set your timer for a short flight, then check remaining capacity. Recharge your battery. Increase the flight time a little bit, then do it again. Sneak up on it, and stop when you either reach your desired flight time, or you reach 20% remaining in your battery.
Many people are having good success with electric power. Give up on it if you choose to, but rest assured, it CAN work.
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.


Offline Jim Carter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 953
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2018, 04:19:50 PM »
The ESC doesn’t give a low power blip. Most ESCs can be programmed to do either a soft or hard shutdown on low voltage, but the 5 second warning at the end of your flight time, and the flight time for that matter, are controlled by the timer.
For what it’s worth, this Summer I was flying with a guy in Maine that has that same Hornet ESC and the timer with the coarse and fine RPM adjustments. He is less than thrilled with that system, and chose to unplug the fine adjuster because it was giving him grief.
You ruin batteries by either drawing them down too deep or not storing them at storage voltage. From your description of a hot, then puffy, battery, I suspect you’re drawing them down too far. STOP DOING THAT!
Set your timer for a short flight, then check remaining capacity. Recharge your battery. Increase the flight time a little bit, then do it again. Sneak up on it, and stop when you either reach your desired flight time, or you reach 20% remaining in your battery.
Many people are having good success with electric power. Give up on it if you choose to, but rest assured, it CAN work.
Thanks Jim!  Okay, I know the timer would give a warning then shut down the motor but I thought the ESC would also shut the usage down when the power went below a certain level to avoid unbalancing the battery   ???  Guess not, eh :-\  I believe the first battery was drawn down too low because there were multiple low speed blips and each time it would spin back up to whatever the battery had left for full power then it would low bower blip and then repeat itself.  It did this about 5 or 6 times.  When it landed, I removed the battery and it was really hot and "fat" thus my decision to get rid of it.  I'll try your idea of "sneak up on it".

Offline Jim Mynes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
  • Chelsea, ME
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2018, 06:11:06 PM »
Thanks Jim!  Okay, I know the timer would give a warning then shut down the motor but I thought the ESC would also shut the usage down when the power went below a certain level to avoid unbalancing the battery   ???  Guess not, eh :-\  I believe the first battery was drawn down too low because there were multiple low speed blips and each time it would spin back up to whatever the battery had left for full power then it would low bower blip and then repeat itself.  It did this about 5 or 6 times.  When it landed, I removed the battery and it was really hot and "fat" thus my decision to get rid of it.  I'll try your idea of "sneak up on it".

As I said, most ESCs have a low voltage cutoff that can be set for a hard, abrupt cutoff, or a soft, gradual slowdown and stop. The voltage at which this happens can sometimes be adjusted, it’s typically set at 3.3v per cell.
The ESC doesn’t monitor each cell individually, but it “knows” how many cells your pack has based on starting voltage. Those beeps you hear when you plug in your battery indicates the cell count.
So, if your ESC is set to shut down at 3.3v, and you’re running 4 cells, the ESC will initiate shut down when the pack is at 13.2v. That doesn’t mean all of the cells have reached 3.3v, a weaker cell might be significantly lower.
Of course, 3.3v is way beyond too low for good battery health, but this is under load. Once the load is gone, the battery will recover somewhat, but you’ll still have less than 20% remaining.
I have no idea why your RPM kept cycling up and down as you describe. Sometimes timers and ESCs can have incompatible settings programmed into them and they do weird things. I’m not familiar with that Hornet setup at all.
Did you time that flight? Do you know how many amps your system is drawing? What’s your lap time? If the airplane is going fast for a long time you’re pulling lots of power out of the battery. During your first two minute flight, get a lap time. If it’s less than 5 seconds per lap turn down the RPM. Then start sneaking up on your flight time as described before.
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.

Offline TDM

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
Re: Suggested Setups for Brodak Legacy
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2018, 07:36:38 AM »
One last thing. If you have to give a battery hours to cool off you are stressing the system to the max. And you are not only stressing the battery only you are stressing everything. The most likely cause of all the stress in the system comes from a too small of a motor. If the motor is small it requires a lot of Amps for the given voltage to turn the desired prop to the correct rpm, this in turn will put pressure on the ESC than has to pump the power in the motor and at same time it demands power from the battery which gives up the juice at high rate, and now the battery gets hot. More over low voltage means high heat high voltage means low heat, and think of heat as wasted energy. Heavy prop will also eat energy for nothing in return other than more gyroscopic precession.

I think the lighter prop alone will make a big difference in your system. Also the bigger motor will relieve the rest of the pressure to the point where you no longer have any more problems.

Personally I believe we try to under size the motors so much to get things light we neglect the negative impact it will create upstream. Impact in both efficiency and weight. We need to use larger batteries too here is an example In my plane AXI vs Joker: AXI is 30g lighter this motor is usually used in conjunction with a 6S 2800 mAh pack (351g), Joker much more powerfull I could get by using a 2000mAh pack (if I could fin it) and suppose I hack up a 6S 2200 that pack will weigh 296g perhaps even less if i can go to a 2000mAh pack. So if you do the math AXI plus Battery (2800 mAh 6S)  526g, Joker plus battery (theoretical 296) 511g prhaps even less than that. So this is what I call rob Peter to pay Paul anything you spend in weight on the motor you save on the battery (perhaps even extra) and you have a system that runs with ease at low Amp (my average amp is 16A) easy on battery and ESC creating little heat (wasted energy) which in turn can open the door for an even smaller battery yet, in adition to that you might get by with a 30A ESC if that is all you need lighter wiring.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here