Author Topic: Stuck at 9200 RPM with a week to learn the pattern. (Read 13163 times)

Doug Knoyle · « **on:** May 20, 2012, 03:33:19 AM »

ICE Lite 50 + KR2 Timer = Stuck at 9200 RPMs.

I'm enjoying getting back to CL after a very long time away, and starting to put the pattern together for the first time in my life – at least I hope so. A late-in-the-season decision to do this, a brand new build, parts delays, and line-break crash a have already set the stage for busy week of flight practice - before attempting beginner class at the NW Regionals this next weekend. Now, If I can just get past this last hurdle of an RPM issue.

What would cause my RPM to stick at 9200 RPMs?

When programming the KR2 timer I can set the RPM to what I want (have tried 9600-10200 RPM), but when the motor starts up in flight mode it's always 9200 RPM.
(note: the ICE Lite 50 Throttle Type is set to Fixed-Endpoints).

All other parameters of the timer seem to be working fine, except the KR2s “Governor Gain” feature which I have only played with a couple of times and not noticed any effect at all.

I don't want to confuse here, but I tried changing the Castle Creations ICE Lite 50 over to CL Governor mode to see if that would make the system ignore the KR2 timer throttle input and allow me to practice. The result was that the system goes through the startup delay as set in the KR2 timer, then the motor spools up slowly (Motor Start Power set to “Low (39)”) as set in the ICE Lite 50, but then shuts down before even getting to full throttle (goes up to 7000 RPM according to the data log). Note that there is no run time (“Flight Time”) experienced here – just startup and shutdown - there is no RPM drop signaling end of run.

So …I set the ICE Lite 50 back to Fixed-Endpoints Throttle type. As expected, I observed the programed run from the KR2 Timer, but only at 9200 RPM.

Note: Firmware version of the ICE Lite 50 is 3.27.

Any help is greatly appreciated … and if it leads to a fix will get you lunch at the NW Regionals this next weekend

Thanks, Doug (#60591)

William DeMauro · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2012, 04:19:25 AM »

What motor and battery? How many cells? First lets make sure you can spin above 9200.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2012, 07:33:33 AM »

Please share your set-up, for starters, lets make sure your cell count & motor KV are capable of delivering adequate RPM.

The KR timer is designed to be used with simple non-governing ESC's. To use it with the Castle you have to program the simple aircraft mode - I think the fixed endpoints might be causing your grief.

I do not beleive it is possible to use the KR timer with the Castle in any of the Castle's governing modes...

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2012, 07:56:33 AM »

Hi Doug,

I think that Dennis is right and the CC Ice needs to be set to simple airplane mode, then it should be fine. Let us know and we can take it from there.

Keith R

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2012, 08:01:00 AM »

Fixed Endpoints will ignore any input pulse longer than 1.8 msec - ie: will limit the RPM to whatever is computed for 1.8 msec or probably 9200 RPM in your case. Set the ESC to autosense or whatever it calls the 'full range' 1.0 - 2.0 msec input.

Andrew Borgogna · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2012, 12:50:53 PM »

Being very familiar with the KR timer I strongly suggest you disable any feature in the ICE ESC that affects motor speed. I am sorry I can't tell you what the features are, I have never used an ICE or Phoenix ESC. You want all speed control for the motor to come from the timer/governor. This is why I do not use the ICE or Phoenix ESC, for CC I recommend using the Thunderbird series basic ESC. The last thing you want is the timer/governor and the ESC working against each other, and that sounds like what you now have.
Andy

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2012, 01:39:22 PM »

What Andy says, but because I'm a control systems guy, not because I have any mileage with the KR timer.

Any time you have two different control loops trying to do the exact same thing, they fight. The result is almost never good (but is sometimes lucrative for me). Either use an ESC that governs speed and a timer (like the Hubin timer) that works with it, or use a non-governed ESC and a timer that governs, like Kieth's. So if you can turn off all the governing features of the ICE -- good.

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2012, 08:15:13 PM »

Propeller: 11x5.5

Motor: Turnigy 35-48-900 KV
Spec.
Battery: 3~5 Cell /11.1~18.5V
RPM: 900kv
Max current: 43A
No load current: 2.2A
Max power: 770W
Internal resistance: 0.036 ohm
Weight: 159g (including connectors)
Diameter of shaft: 5mm
Dimensions: 35x48m
Prop size: 11.1V/11x7 18.5V/9x6
Max thrust: 1780g

Battery: ZIPPY Flightmax 2650mAh 4S1P 40C
Spec.
Capacity: 2650mAh
Voltage: 4S1P / 4 Cell / 14.8v
Discharge: 30C Constant / 40C Burst

Plane: Highly modified ForeRunner from mid 1990s kit.
Spec.
Area: 553 Sq in.
Weight: 53 oz.

Notes and replies:
Longest run has been 5 min. It Runs very cool – you have to hold the battery and think hard to decide whether it is warm, while the motor is barely warm to the touch.

Tim and Andrew, regarding the Timer and ESC working against each other:
Yes I agree. I had set the ICE Lite 50 to CL Governor mode only as a test. I had planed from the start to use the ICE Lite 50 in Airplane mode (non-governed) so it wouldn't fight with the KR2's throttle input.

The decision to go with the ICE was for the logging capability, and the versatility of turing the governing mode on or off.

Keith and Dennis, I'll try the simple aircraft mode and report.

Mike, I'll check out the 'autosense' mode. I saw this, but got the impression that it had to go through the autosence procedure each time you activate, and thus hadn't considered it. I'll check and report.

Wonderful feed back – Thank you … to the work bench ...

Doug (#60591)

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2012, 08:27:59 PM »

Well, a Kv of 900 and 14.8V on the battery should work out to 13,300 RPM, at least when it has a really small prop on it -- and not too much less than that with your regular prop and a fresh charge. The "75% RPM" rule says that you should plan on no more than about 10000 RPM -- but that's way more than you're currently getting.

Bob Hudak · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2012, 08:28:23 PM »

Doug,
The Castle IceLIte 50 software (Castle Link) will allow you to make a copy of your Castle ESC settings. You can save your Castle settings to a file, then post them on the forum. I think these are the settings the gang wants to see so they can steer you in the right direction.
Bob

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2012, 08:51:35 PM »

Have you tried another motor? Maybe the Kv of the motor is really not 900kv.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2012, 08:56:58 PM »

Quote from: Crist Rigotti on May 20, 2012, 08:51:35 PM

Have tried another motor? Maybe the Kv of the motor is really not 900kv.

Crist, are you suggesting that Turnigy motors may not have the World's Best quality control?

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2012, 09:00:06 PM »

two things.

1) Change the ESC to Aircraft mode..... this will let you run past your 9200 rpm limit

2) Get rid of the turnigy motor - I had the same issue with the motor you have but using a different timer and ESC - the motor does not have the balls to do what you want it to do...

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #13 on:** May 20, 2012, 09:01:31 PM »

Quote from: Crist Rigotti on May 20, 2012, 08:51:35 PM

Have tried another motor? Maybe the Kv of the motor is really not 900kv.

you beat me to it Crist...... as I said - I had the same issue - then turfed the Turnigy and replaced with a Scorpion 3026-890 and the issue went away .....as if by magic!

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #14 on:** May 20, 2012, 09:05:04 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on May 20, 2012, 09:00:06 PM

2) Get rid of the turnigy motor - I had the same issue with the motor you have but using a different timer and ESC - the motor does not have the balls to do what you want it to do...

Out of curiosity:

Did the motor seem to just have a different Kv (i.e., did it just run slow), or did it seem to have problems (which could pretty much only show up as the thing vibrating, or running really hot)?

I'm wondering if they did something like got it all wound right, then wired it for delta instead of Y.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #15 on:** May 20, 2012, 10:19:26 PM »

Quote from: Tim Wescott on May 20, 2012, 09:05:04 PM

Out of curiosity:

Did the motor seem to just have a different Kv (i.e., did it just run slow), or did it seem to have problems (which could pretty much only show up as the thing vibrating, or running really hot)?

I'm wondering if they did something like got it all wound right, then wired it for delta instead of Y.

hard to tell - mine would only evern get to 8500 rpm no matter what I did - as soon as I put the scorpion in - instant desired RPM off exaclty the same ESC, Timer and Battery pack...

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #16 on:** May 20, 2012, 10:26:41 PM »

Quote from: Bob Hudak on May 20, 2012, 08:28:23 PM

Doug,
The Castle IceLIte 50 software (Castle Link) will allow you to make a copy of your Castle ESC settings. You can save your Castle settings to a file, then post them on the forum. I think these are the settings the gang wants to see so they can steer you in the right direction.
Bob

Here is the setting profile currently. Note that I haven't had a chance to try any of the suggestions made on this thread yet.

#######################################################
# Castle Link Data File
# Created: Saturday, May 19, 2012
# Do Not Edit This File By Hand
#######################################################
Hex55: 85
Brake Delay: 1s
Brake Ramp: Medium
Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff
Motor Start Power: 39
Direction: Forward (*)
Cutoff Voltage: Auto Li-Po (*)
Current Limiting: Insensitive (80A)
Brake Strength: 50
PWM Rate: 8 Khz
Sample Frequency: 10 Sample / Sec
BEC Voltage: 5
Power-On Beep: Enabled (*)
Auto-Lipo Volts/Cell: 3.0 Volts/Cell
Motor Timing: 2
Data Log Enabled: 255
Vehicle Type: Airplane
Throttle Type: Fixed-Endpoints
Throttle Response: 5
Governor Gain: 15
Initial Spool-Up Rate: 5
Head Speed Change Rate: 5
Auto Rotate Enabled: False
Governor Mode Type: Simple

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #17 on:** May 20, 2012, 10:41:33 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on May 20, 2012, 09:00:06 PM

two things.

1) Change the ESC to Aircraft mode..... this will let you run past your 9200 rpm limit

2) Get rid of the turnigy motor - I had the same issue with the motor you have but using a different timer and ESC - the motor does not have the balls to do what you want it to do...

Here is some additional info: At the end of every flight, when the motor speeds back up after the customary end-of-flight RPM drop, it goes "way" faster then was during the flight.

Keith, Is the KR2 not sending the same flight RPM signal to the to ESC before and after the momentary end-of-flight RPM drop?

Doug (#60591)

Andrew Borgogna · « **Reply #18 on:** May 20, 2012, 10:50:09 PM »

"Throttle Type: Fixed-Endpoints
Throttle Response: 5
Governor Gain: 15
Initial Spool-Up Rate: 5
Head Speed Change Rate: 5"

Like I said I don't have any experience with this ESC, but the above settings do not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Like I said, it is very important that the KR timer/governor must be in total control of the motor RPM. As was stated earlier, you cannot have two closed loop control systems trying to control the speed of the motor. As far as Turnigy motors, some work very well and some not so very well. I am very happy with the ZTW ESC with all settings in default mode, the KR timer and Hacker A30-10XL motor. I use a APC 12 x 6.5 WEP prop I get from Dennis Adamisin. This combo pulls my 53 ounce Naughty Girl at 5.3 second lap times and line tention everywhere.

The speed up after the end of flight dip is because you have FAI firmware in the timer. Does your timer have a led on the timer/governor or on the programmer stick?
Andy

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #19 on:** May 20, 2012, 11:32:01 PM »

Quote from: Doug Knoyle on May 20, 2012, 10:41:33 PM

Here is some additional info: At the end of every flight, when the motor speeds back up after the customary end-of-flight RPM drop, it goes "way" faster then was during the flight.

Keith, Is the KR2 not sending the same flight RPM signal to the to ESC before and after the momentary end-of-flight RPM drop?

Doug (#60591)

Doug, the idea of going faster at the end of the flight is similar to an engine that goes lean on that last sniff of fuel. As andy says, the FAI rules call for 1 full lap for the landing, and it's great to have the extra speed. When I first programmed this feature, the batteries did not have the staying power that they have now and some motors also have a higher winding resistance, so near the end of the flight, full power only gave a little more rpm. Andy and a few others eventually convinced me that this was now too much on certain setups so I changed the program firmware to add around 10% more rpm at the end. This seems to satisfy most users. So you get a 2 second blip of lower throttle to warn you that the motor run is going to end, and then a few seconds of higher rpm to give a little more oomph for a neat landing.

Your system will work fine once everything is balanced out. The 900 kv motor with a weight of 140 to 150 grams and 11 x 5,5 prop is a standard .40 engine setup. I have had great success with the lower cost motors by using the E-Max/Arrowind 2820 on 2200 mAh 4-cell lipos. Just by the way, your model is really nice, with a very neat installation as well.

Keith R

Andrew Borgogna · « **Reply #20 on:** May 21, 2012, 10:25:36 AM »

When Doug said the motor speeds up after the dip I assumed he meant the old fast FAI ending not the new 10% faster ending. That's why the question about the LED because earlier he said it was a V2. Anyway you can start to see why I was a bit confused about the end speed. Well I will go out on a limb and say I agree with everything Keith says!

He is afterall the Zen Master of the KR timer/governor.
Andy

WhittleN · « **Reply #21 on:** May 21, 2012, 12:36:34 PM »

Doug/Guys
Doug you need to be in the airplane mode not Control Line. if you have a readout that says Governor gain you are in either C/L ore helicopter.

Norm Whittle

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #22 on:** May 21, 2012, 10:05:40 PM »

Quote from: WhittleN on May 21, 2012, 12:36:34 PM

Doug/Guys
Doug you need to be in the airplane mode not Control Line. if you have a readout that says Governor gain you are in either C/L ore helicopter.

Norm Whittle

Yup! As stated, the Control Line mode was just a one-off bench test to see what would happen. There has been approximately 40 flights varying between 1 to 5 minutes (mostly 1.5 -2 minute trim flights) using the Fixed Endpoint mode of the ICE.

Right NOW I'm going to reprogram to some of the settings suggested on this thread and see what we can get ....

Cheers!

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #23 on:** May 21, 2012, 11:51:41 PM »

5/21 test of thread suggestions:

There is NO Aircraft Simple mode as suggested.
There is a Helicopter and Control Line with Simple Govenor Mode.

Realized I do not have a tach with me - LOL.

Test 1)ECS: Airplane Auto Cal
KR2: Flight time 1 min. Did not change any settings
Run:
- Switch on: Engine burp instead of beeps - that's new!
- Normal flight delay
- The Run - blasted to high RPM then down to flight RPM (which sounded the same as all previous flights).
- Low RPM signal for end of run, then changed to higher 'Landing setup' RPM.

Test 2) ECS: Airplane Auto Cal
KR2: Programmed more RPM: audibly bumped up form last run.
Run: Observed NO CHANGE: SAME AS FIRST RUN !

Test 3) ECS: Airplane Auto Cal
KR2: Same settings + Trying Keith's instructions of "switch-on" -during-battery-plug-in calibration trick for ECS.
Run: Observed NO CHANGE: SAME AS FIRST RUN !

Bottom line - must have tach before any conclusions can be made. I am a musician with a killer ear, and the flight sound (pitch) of the RPM was the same as always; however, while I realize I'm human and plan to do it again with a tach tomorrow, I could easily tell that the #2 flight run did not match the increased RPM that I set for it. Hmmm.

Stay tuned.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #24 on:** May 22, 2012, 08:48:15 AM »

Weird weird weird.

If worse comes to worst I'll be bringing a spare plane to Eugene that you're welcome to borrow -- it's already been crashed enough times that it's more glue than wood, so if you splinter it there'll be no great loss to the world at large. It is slime powered, but I think we can all cope with that.

If all you do is takeoff, wingover, don't crash*, and land you'll have a better flight than some of my beginner flights last year. Toss in some inside loops and that's better yet. Don't feel like you have to do the whole pattern for your debut contest.

* "Don't crash" isn't in the pattern explicitly: it's only alluded to, as "pattern points" -- but for a begining flyer it can be the most important maneuver of all.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #25 on:** May 22, 2012, 02:06:17 PM »

Doug,
just had a re-think on my post...

I would re-set your ESC to factory settings - then only change the brake to ON

the KR timer should do the rest

John Castle · « **Reply #26 on:** May 22, 2012, 09:08:04 PM »

I am wondering if this: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16231
is the motor you have.
I am running this motor with the FM-2SR timer and the Ice Lite 50 controller and have had a terrible time getting it to run on governor mode. On any of the three head speed rpms, no matter what rpm I set, it would on full throttle or at about 5000 rpm depending on where I set the pot on the timer. I eventually put it on set rpm mode and with the help of a tach was able to set the rpm to my desired level. It will now run for the specified time but the end of flight warning does not work.
One interesting thing I noticed about this motor is the poles. If you count them there 10. If you go to the web site it says there is 3 (

) poles. What the heck? The castle link software will not let me enter 3 poles as an option. I'm wondering if this has something to do with it.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #27 on:** May 22, 2012, 09:17:06 PM »

Quote from: John Castle on May 22, 2012, 09:08:04 PM

I am wondering if this: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16231
is the motor you have.
I am running this motor with the FM-2SR timer and the Ice Lite 50 controller and have had a terrible time getting it to run on governor mode. On any of the three head speed rpms, no matter what rpm I set, it would on full throttle or at about 5000 rpm depending on where I set the pot on the timer. I eventually put it on set rpm mode and with the help of a tach was able to set the rpm to my desired level. It will now run for the specified time but the end of flight warning does not work.
One interesting thing I noticed about this motor is the poles. If you count them there 10. If you go to the web site it says there is 3 () poles. What the heck? The castle link software will not let me enter 3 poles as an option. I'm wondering if this has something to do with it.

they are 14 pole motors - count the magnets - if you have counted the stators and put 10 in the "number of poles" field - that would explain your issue

John Castle · « **Reply #28 on:** May 22, 2012, 09:29:58 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on May 22, 2012, 09:17:06 PM

they are 14 pole motors - if you have counted the stators and put 10 in the "number of poles" field - that would explain your issue

HMMM... Interesting. I will have to try that. Out of curiosity how did you determine that it was 14 poles?

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #29 on:** May 22, 2012, 09:36:22 PM »

Quote from: John Castle on May 22, 2012, 09:29:58 PM

HMMM... Interesting. I will have to try that. Out of curiosity how did you determine that it was 14 poles?

experience

there is data elsewhere on the net - pretty hard to get accurate info from Hobbyking - plus I suspect the motor he has is not the one you linked to but one of the SK series

Howard Rush · « **Reply #30 on:** May 22, 2012, 11:06:44 PM »

Quote from: Tim Wescott on May 22, 2012, 08:48:15 AM

"Don't crash" isn't in the pattern explicitly: it's only alluded to, as "pattern points" -- but for a begining flyer it can be the most important maneuver of all.

The concept of a negative maneuver is rather advanced. The Jive Combat Team is known for negative maneuvers.

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #31 on:** May 22, 2012, 11:14:04 PM »

Quote from: John Castle on May 22, 2012, 09:29:58 PM

HMMM... Interesting. I will have to try that. Out of curiosity how did you determine that it was 14 poles?

My flying buddy and I pulled that motor apart a few nights ago and counted 12 copper windings. Are the poles these windings, or the magnets around the outside?

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #32 on:** May 22, 2012, 11:16:38 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on May 22, 2012, 09:36:22 PM

experience

there is data elsewhere on the net - pretty hard to get accurate info from Hobbyking - plus I suspect the motor he has is not the one you linked to but one of the SK series

Here is the squirrel-cage

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #33 on:** May 22, 2012, 11:32:04 PM »

Quote from: Doug Knoyle on May 22, 2012, 11:16:38 PM

Here is the squirrel-cage

count the magnets ......put a black mark on one with a marker then count each one as you move the case until you get back to that one..

OR - more easilyt - take the bell off and count them

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #34 on:** May 22, 2012, 11:48:12 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on May 22, 2012, 02:06:17 PM

Doug,
just had a re-think on my post...

I would re-set your ESC to factory settings - then only change the brake to ON

the KR timer should do the rest

OK. Reset. The main change seems to be to change my PWM rate from my setting of 8Khz to the default of 12Khz.

Test run = No change.

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #35 on:** May 22, 2012, 11:53:47 PM »

Tonight I have a tach confirming the flight run of 9200 RPM.

!! Note that during Programming of the KR2, I can set the RPM where I want (I have set as high as 10K)...AND the timer is successful at increasing to above the 9200 RPM after the 'end of flight low RPM warning'.

I think I should state the problem again:

So ... we have confirmed we can put the RPM into the 10K RPM bracket; however we observe the following:

-Spool-up (about 1.5 seconds from zero up to high RPM, then down to 9200 RPM).
-Flight RPM (stuck at 9200RPM).
-After the end-of-flight-warning, we have our normal KR2 RPM increase (above 9200 RPM), then motor shuts down as normal.

Our observations come back to the fact that we have not been able to (through normal KR2 settings) get the flight RPM to HOLD what was set during programming.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #36 on:** May 23, 2012, 04:48:44 AM »

Try a different motor. the turnigy may not be the kv it states. as I said earlier, i had the same issue then tried a scorpion and problem went away

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #37 on:** May 23, 2012, 06:43:19 AM »

Then it has to be the timer programming -- If the motor is capable of reaching greater RPM when commanded and the ESC is capable of producing greater RPM than commanded, the only thing left is the timer. It produces greater than 9200 RPM while it is being programmed but not while it is operating in Run mode. So your changes are not being saved or it's program is corrupted. I don't have the instructions handy, but is the LED supposed to flash twice after you change the RPM to signify that the change has been saved? If so, be sure that you wait for that signal before you move on to other changes or unplug anything.

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #38 on:** May 23, 2012, 09:01:45 AM »

Hi Gang,
Everybody needs one of these, or one as good ...
http://www.vexacontrol.com/xciter_details_1.html

The first thing we all ought to do when putting a power package together is to test (in non-Stunt fixed throttle endpoints mode!) whether the motor and prop: 1) achieve the desired RPM, 2) how much excess RPM is available at full throttle, and 3) what the ground current is when set to the expected RPM for that prop and lap time.
That way, there are no mysteries when the timer is in control. You could even use it to verify that a non-governing timer's output does what you think it should.
Regards,
Dean

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #39 on:** May 23, 2012, 10:43:30 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on May 23, 2012, 04:48:44 AM

Try a different motor. the turnigy may not be the kv it states. as I said earlier, i had the same issue then tried a scorpion and problem went away

I will try a different motor after a different timer.

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #40 on:** May 23, 2012, 11:25:25 PM »

Quote from: Mike Anderson on May 23, 2012, 06:43:19 AM

Then it has to be the timer programming -- If the motor is capable of reaching greater RPM when commanded and the ESC is capable of producing greater RPM than commanded, the only thing left is the timer. It produces greater than 9200 RPM while it is being programmed but not while it is operating in Run mode. So your changes are not being saved or it's program is corrupted.

I agree ...and guess what? My buddy Dave, who ordered and installed the same ECS/Timer combo at the same time, has volunteered his KR2 to help trouble-shoot. He has slowly raised his RPM successfully and has been flying at 9400 RPM (different motor and 3S battery though). I'll get to test his timer on Friday.

Quote

I don't have the instructions handy, but is the LED supposed to flash twice after you change the RPM to signify that the change has been saved? If so, be sure that you wait for that signal before you move on to other changes or unplug anything.

It's 1 PRESS and RELEASE of to get into program mode - LED will glow.
Then 2 presses to get to RPM setting - Acknowledged by 2 LED flashes followed by engine start up.
Then press < or > to move RPM up and down.
Then disconnect battery when RPM is where you want it.

Might as well continue ....
Note you always PRESS and RELEASE S1 button once to get into program mode - LED will glow.

Then

3 PRESSES to get to Flight Time setting, then count the 3 acknowledgement Flashes, then PRESS/HOLD S1 and count LED flashes (1 Flash = 10 seconds) and RELEASE one flash before target (not in instructions), Wait 3 sec (not in instructions - just do it), then disconnect battery.
--or--
4 PRESSES to get to Start Delay, then count the 4 acknowledgement Flashes - then PRESS/HOLD S1 and count LED flashes (1 Flash = 1 second) and RELEASE S1 one flash before target (not in instructions), Wait 3 sec (not in instructions - just do it), then disconnect battery.

--or--
5 PRESSES to get to Governor Gain, then count the 5 acknowledgement Flashes - then PRESS/HOLD S1 and count LED flashes (each Flash adds 1 to Gain setting - range is 1 through 7) and RELEASE S1 one flash before target (not in instructions), Wait 3 sec (not in instructions - just do it), then disconnect battery. THIS FUNCTION IS WHAT MADE ME PICK THIS TIMER. I'll play with it once everything else is working.

- - - - - - - - -

Again, I'll test a different KR2 on Friday.
If no change, I'll attempt to talk Dave out of his ECS (in a Nobler by the way).

Wish me luck,
Doug

P.S. I really appreciate everybody's help. The C/L industry reminds me of a comment made by a fellow musician friend Chris. Chris (Guitar Player) says "I'm jealous of you Drummers! Everywhere we go you guys hang out like brothers even if you haven't met, and are always helping each other be the best you can be ...very cool". Thanks again guys!

...stay tuned

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #41 on:** May 24, 2012, 12:00:58 AM »

Quote from: Doug Knoyle on May 23, 2012, 11:25:25 PM

I agree ...and guess what? My buddy Dave, who ordered and installed the same ECS/Timer combo at the same time, has volunteered his KR2 to help trouble-shoot. He has slowly raised his RPM successfully and has been flying at 9400 RPM (different motor and 3S battery though). I'll get to test his timer on Friday.
It's 1 PRESS and RELEASE of to get into program mode - LED will glow.
Then 2 presses to get to RPM setting - Acknowledged by 2 LED flashes followed by engine start up.
Then press < or > to move RPM up and down.
Then disconnect battery when RPM is where you want it.

...stay tuned

No - it's 2 presses to get to RPM set ( 2 flashes of LED)
Motor will run up to the last stored RPM setting
Then adjust using the < & > button until RPM is where you want it
Then PRESS S1 TO STORE THAT RPM and stop the motor.

If you have been unplugging the battery, rather than pressing S1, you
may not be storing your change.

(I still think the timer might flash the LED twice to indicate that the
change is stored - both my timers are in the mail to get the updated
software, so I can't confirm this. But it flashes 3 times to indicate that
the flight time is set, and 4 to indicate the delay is set. Also, after any
change, you are still supposed to be in programming mode, and can re-set
any of the parameters you may wish)

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #42 on:** May 24, 2012, 12:07:45 AM »

Hi Doug,

O.K........I see what's happening here. You say"It's 1 PRESS and RELEASE of to get into program mode - LED will glow.
Then 2 presses to get to RPM setting - Acknowledged by 2 LED flashes followed by engine start up. Then press < or > to move RPM up and down.
Then disconnect battery when RPM is where you want it."

You missed the part about storing the rpm. Under SET RPM in the instructions it says: "Press S1 to store the rpm, the motor will stop, and the LED will go ON." Mike Anderson is correct in that you have not stored the rpm. If you're disconnecting the battery with the motor running then that's not a good idea either. The fact that the rpm is adjustable in program mode shows that nothing is wrong with the motor, and all that's happening here is that the reference rpm for the governor is not being stored. So try that one and see if it works. If not then something is wrong with the timer, but I doubt that because it is actually working.

When I came up with this programming card it was an evolution of many attempts to get away from having an expensive digital display system. It started with one button, then two and then on to the present 3-button card that seems to work the best. The return flashes when setting the times and gain are there to acknowledge the mode that you have just set. The external card instead of buttons on the pc board was due to space and ease of use. My other thinking was that most users don't often change settings very much, so why try to stick everything on the board?? I also use these timers for 1/2A models so I need small stuff. Anyone that has used the old JMP timer with one button will know how adept you have to be to get the timing right. Making the motor produce a series of blips is also a nightmare and it works differently on all the possible motors that we use. This is totally beyond most non-technical modellers. Hope this helps!

Keith R

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #43 on:** May 24, 2012, 12:24:05 AM »

Quote from: Mike Anderson on May 24, 2012, 12:00:58 AM

No - it's 2 presses to get to RPM set ( 2 flashes of LED)

That's exactly what I said, but you have to use 1 PRESS of S1 to get to the programming mode first.

Quote

Then PRESS S1 TO STORE THAT RPM and stop the motor.

Now we're getting somewhere. Nowhere in my instructions does it state this.

Quote

If you have been unplugging the battery, rather than pressing S1, you
may not be storing your change.

Just double checked this. My instructions specifically state in bold "Disconnect the battery when the settings are right", but nowhere in the whole document does it say to press S1 to store the RPM.

Quote

(I still think the timer might flash the LED twice to indicate that the
change is stored - both my timers are in the mail to get the updated
software, so I can't confirm this. But it flashes 3 times to indicate that
the flight time is set, and 4 to indicate the delay is set. Also, after any
change, you are still supposed to be in programming mode, and can re-set
any of the parameters you may wish)

I'll check the flashes after the RPM set next time.

Interesting info.

Thank you

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #44 on:** May 24, 2012, 12:51:56 AM »

Here is the extract from page 3 of the instructions:

Set RPM
Press S1 twice quickly and release. The LED will flash twice and stay OFF to tell you that you are in the Set RPM mode. The motor will start running up to the last set rpm, and will be in governor mode. Use the “>” button to increase the rpm and the “<” button to decrease the rpm. Each press and release will add or subtract approximately 50~100 rpm, depending on the number of poles in the motor. Press S1 to store the rpm, the motor will stop, and the LED will go ON.

Hopefully this is what you have. If not then I can mail you the MS Word doc file.

Keith R

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #45 on:** May 24, 2012, 01:15:00 AM »

Quote from: Keith Renecle on May 24, 2012, 12:07:45 AM

Hi Doug,

O.K........I see what's happening here. You say"It's 1 PRESS and RELEASE of to get into program mode - LED will glow.
Then 2 presses to get to RPM setting - Acknowledged by 2 LED flashes followed by engine start up. Then press < or > to move RPM up and down.
Then disconnect battery when RPM is where you want it."

You missed the part about storing the rpm. Under SET RPM in the instructions it says: "Press S1 to store the rpm, the motor will stop, and the LED will go ON."

I don't see it my instructions. I read it a few times to be sure before taking pics (attached) and posting this. Just FYI: "Setting the rpm:" starts on page 5 of my 8.5x11 instructions that came with the timer.

Quote

If you're disconnecting the battery with the motor running then that's not a good idea either.

I questioned this from the beginning, and thought is was rather crude.

Quote

When I came up with this programming card it was an evolution of many attempts to get away from having an expensive digital display system. It started with one button, then two and then on to the present 3-button card that seems to work the best. The return flashes when setting the times and gain are there to acknowledge the mode that you have just set. The external card instead of buttons on the pc board was due to space and ease of use.

Bravo on this one

Quote

My other thinking was that most users don't often change settings very much, so why try to stick everything on the board??

My buds and I have mentioned a couple times that it would be useful to be able to mount plugs neatly accessible for adjustments without having to take anything apart. Like that you didn't mount anything on the PC board though.

Quote

Hope this helps!

This has got to be the prob!

Please see my attached pics of the instructions. Maybe I'm tired (actually I am), but hoping for egg on my face if you can show me where in the instructions it says to press S1 to store rpm. It is so logical I can't believe I didn't try that on my own.

I'll report tomorrow night. Yay! Between you guys and the weather man I now might be able get some good practice in on Friday

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #46 on:** May 24, 2012, 01:26:27 AM »

Quote from: Keith Renecle on May 24, 2012, 12:51:56 AM

Here is the extract from page 3 of the instructions:

Set RPM
Press S1 twice quickly and release. The LED will flash twice and stay OFF to tell you that you are in the Set RPM mode. The motor will start running up to the last set rpm, and will be in governor mode. Use the “>” button to increase the rpm and the “<” button to decrease the rpm. Each press and release will add or subtract approximately 50~100 rpm, depending on the number of poles in the motor. Press S1 to store the rpm, the motor will stop, and the LED will go ON.

Hopefully this is what you have. If not then I can mail you the MS Word doc file.

Keith R

Ah ha! Mine doesn't say anything about the poles in the motor either (see pics in my previous post). Yes please send the updated document. Now I'm excited to see if my bird can really fly - come to think of it, it' has done great considering the low RPMs I've been trying to fly it at. Get this - Laps have been 5.6 - 5.7 and that's on 59.5' lines (down from starting on 63').

Thanks Keith,
Cheers,
Doug

P.S. If I can now get the Governor Gain to work I'll be getting another 1 or 2 timers.

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #47 on:** May 24, 2012, 01:50:17 AM »

Doug, which KR Timer do you have? Is the LED on the programming card or is it on the pc board? I think that what I need to do now is to update my website with the manual files then it's easy to just download them. I'm trying hard not to do too many updates but every now and then someone finds a funny and then I try to fix it. Anyway, I'll stick the manuals on my website later. I just need to go out for a couple of hours.

Keith R

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #48 on:** May 24, 2012, 02:14:48 AM »

O.K. now I see the problem. I did not update my website text

You downloaded the instructions from my site. Sorry about that. In the rushing around these last few months I somehow missed this, but I'll fix it up a little later. In the meantime...........just press S1 after setting the rpm and all will be well.

Keith R

Dave Denison · « **Reply #49 on:** May 24, 2012, 11:05:11 AM »

Hello Keith.

I'll introduce myself, I'm Dave, Doug's flying buddy. I have one of your Timers (great system). I just checked the instruction sheet I have and there is NO statement to "press once to store" in the RPM section.

Lets hope this is the sole problem.....seems like that's it. I'll be testing again this afternoon. This forum has been an outstanding source.

Dave
ama 41401

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #50 on:** May 24, 2012, 11:26:14 AM »

Hi Dave,

O.K. thanks. Please let me know what version of the timer you guys have and then I can back-track and see where things went wrong. The latest version with the LED on the pc board has the correct info. If one of you guys drops me an e-mail to krenecle<at>netactive.co.za then I can send you the updated instructions. Sorry for the hassles, and thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I fixed the section on my website but could not get the manuals to link. We had a robbery two weeks ago and my desktop pc was stolen and I'm just waiting to replace it then I can get the web software up and running. My laptop does not have the right software right now. Thanks.

Keith R

Dave Denison · « **Reply #51 on:** May 24, 2012, 01:34:51 PM »

Hi All.

Here are the results of the latest test, using Keith's "corrected" instructions. YES...the system functions correctly in all aspects. Thanks to everyone for their ideas and inputs.

Keith:
The instruction sheet that both Doug and I have been using came in the package with the Timer Unit, NOT Downloaded !. Both of these were purchased from RSM at the same time( last month). This may indicate, that RSM's inventory may have the incorrect instruction's.

Thanks for you time.

Dave.

Doug Knoyle · « **Reply #52 on:** May 24, 2012, 02:58:21 PM »

Quote from: Keith Renecle on May 24, 2012, 02:14:48 AM

O.K. now I see the problem. I did not update my website text You downloaded the instructions from my site...

Nope. Neither Dave nor I downloaded from your site. We have what came with the KR2 from RSM.

No worries, but wo uk ld like a copy of the current doc asap.

Cheers,
Doug

Andrew Borgogna · « **Reply #53 on:** May 24, 2012, 04:17:23 PM »

What I don't understand is how you were stoping the motor after you set the RPM. Pressing S1 is how you stop the motor and set the RPM. I can't believe I didn't pick up on this, I am very sorry. I was focused on turning off the governor in the ESC that I didn't look at the basics. Hope everything works well for you.
Andy

Dave Denison · « **Reply #54 on:** May 24, 2012, 05:32:38 PM »

Andrew.

Thanks for your thoughts on this issue. One of the things that made this "hard to fix", is the fact that on Doug's and my instruction sheet it says to " disconnect the battery after making changes"......Yes, in hindsite, the move to push "S1" makes perfect sense. I'll bet Eric has a few of the Timers in stock with the confusing and incomplete instructions.

Again thank you.

Dave.
ama 41041

Andrew Borgogna · « **Reply #55 on:** May 25, 2012, 02:28:03 PM »

Dave
In no way am I placing any blame on you or Doug. I am really mad at myself, I am suppose to know how this system works and I didn't catch it. One thing I will make certain in the future is to review any documentation Eric posts on his web site. Anyway, as the Bard once said "All's well that ends well." Now if I can just finish up the Continental and get it flying like I hope.

Good luck guys, and please feel free to contact me by email or phone if I can be of any help with the KR timer.
Andy

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #56 on:** May 25, 2012, 05:12:23 PM »

Doug/Dave - just blame it on Andy..!

All teasing aside, Andy helped me through my first set-up of the KR system and all but held my hand - from 2500 miles away - as I got it installed & programmed. My system came out working great right out of the box - did not even have to reset the RPM. All I re-programmed was flight duration from 1:00 test hops to 5:30 full flights. Install #2 is now RTF.

I am really glad you were able to get it sorted out so quickly...

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #57 on:** May 25, 2012, 10:40:09 PM »

You guys can blame it on me for not updating Eric properly. Humble apologies. I tend to get lost in the bits and bytes. Thanks to Doug for posting this because it brought this to my attention. Let us know how things work out now.

Keith R

Dave Denison · « **Reply #58 on:** May 26, 2012, 06:29:09 PM »

HI.

Just returned home from the Northwest Contest in Eugene....super event!!, LOTS of electrics.

Very happy to report both our systems are functioning perfectly. We are now looking forward to Trimming out both planes. A big thank you to everyone for their great input on this issue.

Dave.
ama 41041