Hi Russell,

The person that told you: "your method of charging after flying and then flying the next week is OK", was CORRECT.
 

Please don't' believe ANYTHING that those guys are saying on the "ECL Bashing" open forum. Most of them still think the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, and dinosaurs walked the earth with humans! They all wish it was still 1958! The misinformation and outright lies they are telling about ECL is very disappointing and discouraging to me. I would say more, but I don't want to push Dean's reasonable limits. ;-) Now I know how Dean and Bob felt when they were part of the threesome that introduced the tuned pipe to the backward thinking world of CL. I have heard stories that it was just as ugly as what we are seeing today over the introduction of another technology coming over from the RC world. I think my skin is just too thin to put up with these people and their constant ECL bashing. Bob H. is giving me counseling, but I still have a long way to go. ;-)

Battery safety issues have been blown way out of proportion by our enemies. I have been using LiPos for over 9 years and thousands of flights with no safety issues. And if you add the E power pilots I fly with then there are 10s of thousands of safe flights and charges.

The few safety issues that have come up when using LiPos have been repeated over and over again millions of times so that people start to believe these are a million separate accidents.   Sample: The story usually starts out  ".... I have a friend of a friend who has a cousin that knows a guy that heard from someone else about someone that had his van burn up while charging a model battery in his van ......"   GUYS, IT WAS JUST ONE VAN, just the same story told a millions times. And the guy was using a NON LiPo battery charger inside his van while driving, and he never read any instructions for his charger! 


OUR BATTERIES CAN TAKE IT, THEY ARE VERY SAFE

Our batteries can take some minor abuse but the more careful you are the longer they will last. With a little care they will give you somewhere around 140+ cycles. The newest models of our high quality batteries (Hyperion and Thunder Power), using the latest technologies, may be good for 200+ cycles. We do not have enough hard ECL data yet to make exact estimates (?;-) but we can use some of the data from the ERC world, although there are some important differences it does give us some clues. 

The rule of thumb on charging is that our batteries can go up to approx. 2 weeks while fully charged without harming them. If you plan on having more than 2 to 3 weeks between flights then it will help the longevity of your batteries if you use the "storage" feature on your charger to bring them up to, or down to the storage voltage, usually around 50% capacity.

There have been many times that I thought I would fly next week but didn't fly for a month and forgot about my batteries (life intervenes for all of us ;-). I just top them off and fly with no problems. Don't worry about it. If you only get 140 cycles instead of 170 that someone gets that babies their batteries, you are still paying far less for fuel than the wet flyers. I have set aside, (forgotten? ;-) fully charged batteries for over a year with no safety problem. Of course they are slowly being self discharged so they end up in "storage" mode at some point. ;-) Like with Nitro fuel, we do have to be reasonable, but nothing like the total BS shown in the open area posts.


THREE GOOD RULES OF THUMB FOR BATTERY HEALTH AND LONGEVITY:

1. If you are not going to fly for more than 2 or 3 weeks then do a "storage" charge.

2. Keep your battery temp between freezing and approx. 125 f (If it hurts to touch it, it is too hot, if your tongue sticks to it when you lick it, then it is too cold. ;-)

3. Don't draw down more than 75% of the batteries capacity. 


Just keep doing what you are doing now. Your friend gave you good advice.     

Regards, 

There are many stunt guys who dislike the idea of electric flight... but you should try talking to the racing guys!  They absolutely hate the idea!  They think it is just so wrong and shouldn't be allowed at all!  What is wrong with these people!

Hi fella's! Nice to see I have a fan club forming over here.  What, you didn't expect to hear an alternative point of view? We are allowed one ya know... and I really didn't think my post was anywhere near as inflammatory as you make it out. I just gave what I felt was a more balanced view of electric than the ebullient stuff I see so much of. It's not without its flaws. If you can't handle any dissention, like anyone who points out some less than stellar realities is holding up progress somehow, you need to re-think your position. This isn't religion ya know. (We all know Fords rule and Chevy's drool, right?)

Believe what you want... say I'm a flat-earther, or whatever you want...it might surprise you to know my formal education ticket was in radio & TV electronics. I was a bench tech for years at a TV repair shop, and am as board level as you can get.  I went back to school, and have run my own successful computer business for 20 years. I was involved in the HP/Compaq re-call on laptops that involved problematic battery/charger related fire hazards, so I know a little about these things. Flat Earth'er? Hardly. Re-Read my post with an open mind, as if was written by a close friend of yours (because I'd like to think I am). You've got me all wrong.

Advising people not to follow manufacturer’s instructions on battery charging and storage is not advisable by the way... great way to get a summons should something go wrong some day.

Hey, today I flew our Jr Nat Champs E-T-Rex! How do you like them apples? These guys are as close a friend's and flying buddies as anyone, heck, we just finished having lunch and talking about all this stuff too.

For what it's worth, in talking with them, they pre-charge their batteries before they come to the field, unlike my other buddy who's more of a stickler. Said it takes about 45min's per battery, and they start a couple days ahead of time. They sometimes can come with one fully charged and top off the rest at the field. Funny thing is, the whole reason I got the flight today in the first place is they had a extra charged battery ready to go, and let me run it out rather than have to take it home charged and/or discharge it.

You guys need to step back and take a deep breath. I didn't say anything un-true or disparaging on electrics. Sure I'll trash talk with my buddies, but it's all in fun. But on a public forum, like I said, re-read what I wrote like it was written by your close friend who happens to think IC still has a bright future, and thinks people should know what they are getting into with Electric, that it's not all sunshine and lollypops. One of you mentioned  "enemies" in this thread. I find that statement scary... I'd like to think none of us have any "enemies" in this hobby. Enemies? really? wow!!!

I really enjoyed my ride on Sam's E-T-Rex today. At 76+ ounces, and on .21 lines it still flies surprisingly well. The steady, almost flat power delivery reminds me a lot of my 4-strokes. I can see the attraction, but it's still a little flat delivery for me in the overheads and hourglass...could be the weight on this particular plane... but it's still not likely for me to ever want to make a switch. If you like electrics and are willing to do the work, great, but I don't see the need to put anyone else down who doesn't respond to the evangelizing.

My post was almost as much about climbing the stunt ladder as it was shining a little light on some of the reality (at least what I have seen in practice) of electric. I personally found switching propulsion systems several times a huge setback to my stunt program. If you want to climb the contest ladder quickly, I think you are best off sticking with one system until you are proficient with it in every way, either until you have reached your goals, or your current system is now holding you back. Otherwise you get bogged down in tinkering and learning new stuff constantly instead of concentrating on flying. That's why I mentioned my own personal experience with going from ST60's, to 4-strokes to Pipe ships. Truth be told, if I had stuck with the ST60's, or gone straight to pipe ships in the first place, I would have climbed the ladder faster without the distraction of changing power trains, no matter how much "better" I might feel my current power train is. Do I like what I'm running now? You bet! But I hung out in Advanced a long time after moving up from my Intermediate win at the KOI in 2001 with a ST60 Intrepid XL...way too long. I credit a new initiative I took of sticking with building one design repeatedly until I was able to build it lighter, straighter and stronger, and learning one power train, for my recent successes, that's all I meant.

All right gang, are we cool or what? Or do I have to watch my back from now on? Ball's in your court.

EricV

Actually, I spoke to Rob F from team Race last night and he wasn't against it. He said one day the FAI will completely change the rules and make electric T/R the only type of racing recognised by them. We were discussing how they would govern pit stops and he suggested that they could make a maximum size for the battery similar to the rules on tanks now. (Length x height x width.)
(He did say that it would be a few years yet.)
He probably doesn't care much about electric taking over because he will be retiring in the near future from competitive racing. I just hope he doesn't take up stunt again as he is a good flyer.

What is wrong with these people!
They belong to the "flat earth society"...hahaha.
 

Hi Russell and Warren,

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out in CL racing. They do have a serious problem with decreasing #s. All CL #s are decreasing and aging, but it seems the speed events are decreasing at a faster rate. Going to E power may be a help, but I can see some serious resistance, understandably for many reasons. They do have a much different situation than we do in CLPA. Within the very conservative USA I think it will be a long time before it is popular in CL speed or T/R, or the other semi speed event: CL combat. ;-)

 In RC pylon racing E power is becoming more popular outside the USA. Some here in the states are experimenting with E powered sport Q-500. With a set upper RPM measured limit this may be a good way to go and may help save some flying sites.

BTW: your bird whistle is not a bad idea. Paul W. lost his ECL plane in a head on collision with a large bird just before he was taking his plane to the World Championships. They use them to keep deer away from cars maybe we could make one for our planes. I would hate to hurt an innocent bird, to say nothing of destroying a good airplane. ;-)

Another good post, Eric.  

And again I agree!

 THEY seem to have no problem talking about all of the things that THEY think is wrong with IC. Heaven forbid WE say anything about electric. ........ Even if it's a fact!

 If WE are "flat-earthers" then THEY are definitely members of the "Thin Skin Society"!

Derek

Hi Jim,
That is probably overkill, but if you have a surplus Army/Navy store in the neighborhood, you can buy ammo boxes dirt cheap!
They will protect the batteries from being damaged/punctured, which is probably the greatest concern at home, and should serve as the containment you are looking for.
No, I don't know anyone who has done the test!

As they are inexpensive you can buy enough of them that you don't feel the need to keep many batteries in the same case.
Oh yes, and please remember not to drop your cell phone: roughly 75 of them a year (in the U.S.) vent with flame ... most often shortly after being dropped onto pavement.

Regards,
Dean P.

Just a side note, most Cell Phones use Lithium ION batteries, not LiPo's.

Now, that said, ION batteries have a hard shell case instead of a baggie, but are still more dangerous for our use because they can't stand the fast discharge rate of
your motor, and are generally considered safer for general electronics use with slow discharge like Cell phones and camera's.

And yes, your Cell can vent with flames when dropped just right (or is that just wrong?), but hey, it's just a cheap cell, not your $2000 Nat's
world beater that took all year to build that just went up in flames, and you tend not to use your cell phone to fly at 55mph doing stunts and the
occasional hard landing... 

PS: Oh, on a side note, my Cell charges on my granite kitchen counter, in an open area, not under a cabinet, or near anything flamable. I don't trust it either... 
PPS: I always charge my Ni-Starter during the day in my garage in a bunker box when I am home.
PPPS: I never charge any batteries when I'm not home.
PPPPS: I don't leave A/C / D/C transformers (those little bricks that come with just about every small electronic nowadays) plugged in unattended if I can help it either. Anything that is warm to the touch, is running up your electric bill. (Cable TV boxes are the worst at running up your bill and some get downright hot!!!!) Power surge strips are great for all these items where you can turn the strip off with the bricks, etc. plugged into it.
PPPPPS: Talk to Owen Richards some day about loosing his 2 story house to charging R/C flight packs...
PPPPPPS: I like doing PS's... 
PPPPPPPS: Seriously, I really am trying to help you all be safe, and not ragging on electric flight, the comedy routine is just to relieve a little tension that seems to have risen around this topic...
PPPPPPPPS: I'm not paranoid, the batteries really are out to get me! 

EricV

Hi Rudy,

I have an idea that might work very well and I would appreciate your opinion. Do not charge the batteries after use. Store them until you are going to use them and charge them the night before (as long as you have used less than 80% of capacity).
However, if you are going to store them for a long period of time like over the winter months. Use the storage mode on your charger, place them in a zip lock bag (forcing all the air out before you seal it) and place it in the bottom of the frig.

Take them out a day or two before use but do not take them out of the zip lock bag until they are room temperature. Otherwise condensation can form on the contacts.

Ron Heckler
Queens, New York

Hi Ron,

I agree with Crist, good info.

Your suggestion to wait until you are closer to your flight date should work well for most people who fly every week or two. Either method will work well.

Small note:

Our batteries are very safe while operating within their limits. It is easy to keep them within these limits as we have discussed on this forum. With that said, they have almost NO tolerance for going above their max charge voltage, or going below their minimum discharge voltage. This means that using a quality Li Po charger is required and it will take care of the max limit V for us automatically. The other end is as you mentioned, don't discharge below 80% of max. This also means that if you set your batteries aside after use without charging, you do have to be careful not to forget about them for a long time or they will slowly discharge below the minimum discharge voltage and the batteries will then be ruined. This is why the storage charge on our chargers brings the V up or down to approx. 50%. ...... Please don't misunderstand me, I don't want to sound like an alarmist, you would have to leave your 80% discharged battery uncharged for at least a few months or more before it was destroyed, I just wanted to point this minor detail out as a reminder.

Your frig. idea is a good one. The individual Zip lock bags are a nice touch. If you have a very understanding spouse this should work well. I have a wonderful wife, but I think she would balk at over 30 Li Pos in our (HER? ;-) frig. Also, out here we fly all year round and we don't understand the term "winter storage"  ... Sorry, that was rude, but being an ex New Englander I could not resist. 

Thanks for your good points.

Warm Regards,     

Rudy,

Thanks for getting back to me.  There is one other thing I do and that is to keep stats on the amount of usage that I put back into each battery after each flight.  I developed an Excel spreadsheet that calculates the number of flights, and % of what I put back into them. By keeping this report it shows if I am getting my monies worth vs fuel ($1 per flight) and the condition of each at time goes by. At the present time I am using (4) Turnigy 3000 20C 4 cells at a cost of $22 each.  I have 27 flights on each and they are still going strong. In addition to the consistant 108 good flights.  When you look at that there really isn't any comparison.  Next year I plan on buying the new Nano-Tech batteries and expect even more.

By the way, you guys did not have to rub it in that you fly year round. Now I am really jealous!!!!

Thanks again

Ron Heckler
Queens, New York