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Author Topic: Anyone else notice this?  (Read 643 times)

Offline John Hammonds

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Anyone else notice this?
« on: July 16, 2010, 07:39:13 AM »
Hi All,
 One of the things I really like about Electric Control line verses the Wet variety is the near constant speed during manouvres regardless of the model's attitude. I tend to run fairly low pitch props at quite high speed  in governor mode as it seems to let me fly my models more slowly which suits my style. Not having the model vary speed on the downward or upward part of loops, wing overs etc to any great degree is something I really like a lot.

I do however have a problem with wind. (No, not that kind of wind).  n1

I was flying the other day in around 15mph winds and really had problems with the reverse wing over. Other manouvres were a delight. Hardly any wind up, only slightly faster speed through loops etc to most other weather conditions but because the motor does not "unload" like a nitro engine when it flys into wind it seems to act like a brake and by the time I get up wind to begin the RW I have a lot less airspeed relative to the ground then I would like. Perhaps it's because my models are quite small (40" - 50") that I'm seeing/feeling this.

Do others increase the RPM when flying in windy conditions or am I doing somethin else wrong?

Thanks in advance

TTFN
John.
 

I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.....
Fast, Cheap, Reliable - Choose any 2!
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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Anyone else notice this?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2010, 11:57:05 AM »
Hello John,
Actually many of us have noticed this. There are many tradeoffs we make when we pick a prop/motor/airplane combo. Probably the best description I read of this tradeoff was written by Igor maybe two years ago, when he explained that under some circumstances, having a smaller diameter prop as compared to the airplane's mass and allowing momentum to trade-off against the supposed-ideal of constant airspeed could be beneficial in some wind conditions. Of course, the wind-up in maneuvers will worsen.
Yes, maybe some of us would dial in 1 or 2 tenths of a second faster in such conditions.
Others like Igor and Erik from Holland are working on "smart-power". Hopefully they never have Toyota-like throttles.

Cheers,
   Dean P.
Dean Pappas

Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Anyone else notice this?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2010, 06:25:17 PM »
Thanks Dean,
 I'll try both ways to see which I prefer, I'm not really a windy weather flyer as a rule, but after entering a competition for the 1st time last month and really enjoying the experience I decided it's something I need to come to terms with if I'm not to either lose a model or waste a trip at some time in the future due to the weather conditions.

The "Smart Power" packages being developed are really interesting I just hope they don't end up being too expensive for lesser mortals such as mysef.
 
Thanks again.

TTFN
John.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.....
Fast, Cheap, Reliable - Choose any 2!
BMFA 165249

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Anyone else notice this?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 11:42:31 PM »
Hi John,
In wind, I do prefer to wind in a little extra rpm. I fly mainly with APC 12 x 6 E props that I set at 9000rpm in calm weather, and 9200 in the wind. This by the way, is at 5000 ft. above sea level. Down at the coast, I go down below 9000 to around 8800 rpm. So my spread of rpm change is around 200 rpm. The big thing is that although the motor does not "kick in" on the uphills, it does not go any faster on the downhills, and this is more important to me. Having flown diesels this way for many years, I am used to a "more-or-less" constant rpm way of flying. In calm conditions, not much beats a 2/4 break type of engine run, but in turbulence the 2/4 break wet set-up will usually not work well and kick-in where it shouldn't. The big bore engines like the PA 75's, RO-Jetts and others seem to resist this tendency a little better. I've flown Rob Mekemeijer's Yatsenko Shark with his own long stroke 6-port .77 in some rough stuff and it just purr's through the pattern using a 14" 3-bladed prop. On the same day however, my electric stunter felt just as good and even smoother with similar power. The motor (MVVS 6,5/910) is rated as a .40 glow, but certainly has a lot more power.

A steady wind is not the real problem, it is the gusty turbulence. Fly anywhere near trees, buildings etc. in strong wind and you'll feel the difference. With the electric stuff, it is quite easy to program the motor to add power when it is loaded, and as Igor and Erik Janssen have shown, you can use gyro's and accelerometers to kick in and out. The real issue here is to know exactly what we really want.....and when. For now, until the guru's have come up with a better solution, the best compromise is to hold the rpm constant, and at least you know exactly what you have. With electric, the added benefit is knowing that what you have, is going to be "what you have" every time you switch on.

Keith R
Keith R

Dave Adamisin

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Re: Anyone else notice this?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2010, 02:02:37 PM »
FWIW... Dennis and I spend too much time looking at the Castle data. I like to bring the text file into Excel. One day I had plotted a round loop from the Hellcat profile and sent the pic to Dennis and he thought that maybe the wing over would be even more interesting. So..... I plotted the raw rpm data and just for the heck of it I added a polynomial (4th order) trend line. Here's the pic. The red line is the upright and the black the inverted... Upright and inverted start from left..

Motor: Arrowind 2815 920
ESC: Castle IceLite 50
Timer: Hubin FM4
Set rpm: 9800
APC 11x4.5 EP (cut/blade re-shaped from 13x4.5)

« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 10:50:12 AM by Dave Adamisin »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Anyone else notice this?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 11:15:02 AM »
John,

There is a trick that many use in the high wind situations. On the level lap before going into the RW start walking in a small circle (like 4ft dia) leading the ship. As you get to the the entry half lap put the circle tight then enter the up wind part, this give a little extra speed to get you over. Usually you don't need to do this on the inverted half cause the dive adds the speed but in high wind you can do the same trick. Practice this a few time in calm conditions to get use to it. It also works well on the hourglass and clover.

Best,                    DennisT

Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Anyone else notice this?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 05:44:36 PM »
Hi Dennis,
Now that's a nice simple solution. I'll give it a try, Not had chance to fly for a week or so but we are promised "gusty" condistions this weekend and there is a comp on Sunday I fancy giving a go so I may spend Saturday playing around if SWMBO  does not have too many jobs scheduled.

I do have another quick question, I have used the JMP2 timer exclusively since I started mainly because of it's small size and weight. Programming it at the field though is about as user friendly as a cornered rat! :( I've been considering moving towards Will's latest offering as really like the idea of the pot to adjust the rpm by 100 or so. I'm presuming that the RPM setting will be overridden by the ESC (I use CC phoenix CL mode so use the  3 RPM settings 0-49, 50-99, 100%). I guess the RPM management actually adjusts the throttle by a few %. Does this mean if the adjustment does not take the throttle setting over to the next "Throttle boundary" the pot will have not have any effect? Not sure if I have explained this clearly.  ??? Perhaps it's a question I should direct at Will directly.

TTFN
John.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.....
Fast, Cheap, Reliable - Choose any 2!
BMFA 165249

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Anyone else notice this?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2010, 11:46:01 PM »
Hi John, It sounds to me like you are not using the governor mode in the Phoenix esc, so check this first and then don't use the setting in the JMP timer that adds throttle over time. If this is the case and you are indeed running without the governor, then flying in wind is a nightmare.

Keith R
Keith R

Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Anyone else notice this?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 07:50:58 AM »
Hi Keith,
 Yep it would seem you are correct. All this time and I seem to have misunderstood how I've been setting my planes up.  b1 I don't have access to Castle link at the moment as I'm doing a sneaky post from work but yes I use the "Set RPM" mode rather than "Governer High". Although I thought the governor was still active in the set rpm mode?

Will sent me an Email based on my question above which clarified things a lot (And got him an order for a couple of FM-9V's and a program box) so everyone wins.  :)

The weekend is approaching so I'm looking forwards to draining a few batteries trying out the suggestions above. I did get one other from a club member who said "Simple, just fly on shorter lines". Obvious really...

TTFN
John.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.....
Fast, Cheap, Reliable - Choose any 2!
BMFA 165249


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