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Author Topic: Gearbox question..  (Read 1084 times)

Offline jim gilmore

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Gearbox question..
« on: September 16, 2010, 11:33:40 AM »
I'm curious why gearoxes are used to swing big props, but not to speed up small props ?
Most high speed 1/2A models swing 5-6 inch props at 22,000 rpm. But I've never seen electrice come close to that rpm. At 6-1 wouldn-t an electric onlt need to turn 3666 rpm ?

Offline john vlna

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Re: Gearbox question..
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 12:22:46 PM »
gear boxes are used typically with inrunners which spin very fast.  Outrunners have the ability to turn larger props directly. In general electric motors (outrunners) like larger diameter props with higher pitch. In runner if run in direct drive mode like small props with lower pitch, Ducted fans are a good example of where inrunners are used. you will see a Kv rating when looking at the specs. Multiple the Kv times the voltage used. Say the KV is 2000 That means the no load rpm is 2000RPM per volt.

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Gearbox question..
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 12:36:33 PM »
Efficiency.

Unless the plane is really scooting, big props are more efficient than little props.  We don't put gearboxes on glow engines because they're heavy and with the pounding they get from an engine they're a maintenance nightmare.  You used to see them occasionally in Pattern (Hanno Pretner flew twin .60s geared to a common prop in the early 80's), but for sport flying you just increase the engine size and have fun.

With electric motors, the speed at which the motor is efficient is really way too fast for a sensible prop on anything but a speed demon race plane.  Put a gearbox on and you lose efficiency because of the gearbox -- but you gain enough efficiency from the bigger propeller and the motor running in it's "sweet spot" that your overall system efficiency goes up.

With an outrunner the tradeoff is similar: outrunner motors are generally less efficient than a comparable inrunner -- but the outrunner motor is more efficient and probably lighter than that inrunner with a gearbox, and it's certainly less of a pain.

You see similar tradeoffs in full-size aviation: piston engines can't come up to their full power potential when they're driving a propeller directly.  So you see many, many planes that have a piston engine and some sort of a speed reduction gear to allow the motor to run at its best RPM while driving a big prop efficiently.  The extreme example of this is a turboprop, where the turbine is going upward of ten thousand RPM, but it's geared down to a prop that may be turning less than 2000 RPM.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: Gearbox question..
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 02:01:36 PM »
The turbo prop is geared down for a different reason.  Tip speeds to high cause a different set of problems.
But that does not explaine why we only use gearboxes to lower the speed rather than  up the speed?

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Gearbox question..
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 02:15:31 PM »
The turbo prop is geared down for a different reason.  Tip speeds to high cause a different set of problems.
But that does not explaine why we only use gearboxes to lower the speed rather than  up the speed?

Because then you're piling inefficiency on top of inefficiency.  Even the ducted fans are direct-drive, and they're at about the smallest end of the "inefficiently small with fast motor" spectrum that you can get.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Gearbox question..
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 04:11:09 PM »
The turbo prop is geared down for a different reason.  Tip speeds to high cause a different set of problems.
But that does not explaine why we only use gearboxes to lower the speed rather than  up the speed?

That's an interesting question.  Sometimes a little calculation can reveal stuff one hadn't imagined because it contradicts intuition.  You can calculate prop efficiency to compare little, fast ones with big, slow ones.  Javaprop, http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/javaprop.htm , might be the easiest way.  For tip Mach number > .7, props start getting inefficient (and too complicated for me to analyze).  That's one thing to keep in mind.  Another, as John mentioned, is that there are motors optimized to run at higher RPM than the outrunners people use for electric stunt.  Just switching to an inrunner might be more efficient than gearing up an outrunner.   Do the ciphering and tell us up with what you come.  I haven't seen any actual calculation here to show it won't work.
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Offline Archie Adamisin

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Re: Gearbox question..
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 05:17:24 PM »
Jim,

Go to youtube and type in F5D and watch one of the many videos.  At this years world champs, the winning set-up was a motor spinning over 45,000 in the air.  The austrian who won and set the world record flew the 10 lap FAI course in 57 sec.  As of right now, Electrics have passed glow powered racers in pylon racing.  This years world F5D championships was the fastest pylon race ever run.

With the proper in-runner motor, an ECL speed model would really haul.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Archie Adamisin
Burlington, KY

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Gearbox question..
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 05:40:56 PM »
With the proper in-runner motor, an ECL speed model would really haul.
I wanna see!  I wanna see!

(This is what I meant when I was babbling about "unless the plane is really scooting", by the way).
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: Gearbox question..
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2010, 06:39:30 PM »
True, that some of todays electrics out perform yesterdays IC's. But it is still an apple to oranges comparison.
There is currently no true way to compare the two.

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