News:


  • April 27, 2024, 06:18:16 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Some more motor measurements--efficiency vs kV of motor  (Read 1581 times)

Alan Hahn

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Some more motor measurements--efficiency vs kV of motor
« on: September 09, 2008, 02:26:51 PM »
I've been meaning to put in some recent motor measurements that I have made, but for some reason have had a hard time getting around to it. So I thought I'd put in a couple of installments. Here is a measurement I made of relative power draw of 3 motors I have (all Scorpion), a 3014-16 "Wye" termination (kV=725), a 3020-16 "Delta" termination (kV=880), and a 3020-12 Delta termination (kV=1088).I note that the delta termination seems a pretty standard way of connecting the 3 phases of the brushless motor, but the same motor reconfigured as a "Wye" will give a kV about 60% of that of the Delta. Since my 3014 had a higher than expected kV when I wound it and terminated as a delta, I thought why not try it in the other configuration. So that's why you see it here.

What is most relevant in this plot is the orange trace which is just the average input power in watts for the three motors. The data were taken with my Eagletree Data recorder during a 15 minute experiment I ran in the basement!. I used 2 of my 4s2100mAHr packs hooked up in parallel to supply the power. The 4s2100 pack (a single one) is what I use in my Nobler.
I used a single 11-5.5 APC Thin Electric prop (more or less approximates the power I use in level flight) and the Castle Creations Phoenix 35 running in fixed rpm mode (about 7950 rpm) for the throttle >50%. I don't show the rpm plot here (too many curves), but I do verify that all three motors were running at 7950 rpm for the test. The other curves are the pack voltage (gray trace) and the average currents (violet trace).

If I look at the input power near the end of each test (to let things have a chance to stabilize), I get input powers of 240, 259, and 269 watts for the 725, 880, and 1088 kV motors respectively.

So the lower kV motor is more efficient than the higher kV motors with this battery setup, but not by gigantic amounts.


I note that generally I would expect the slightly smaller 3014 (14mm long magnets) to be a little less efficient than an equivalent kV 3020 motor (20 mm magnets). But it was the lowest kV of what I had and I was wondering how it would work in the Nobler. The answer was that it didn't really work with my standard 12-6 prop because the kV was a little too low to keep rpm up at the end of the flight when the battery pack voltage had dropped. But it represents more than the best you could get by getting the kV closest to "optimal".


Alan Hahn

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Some more motor measurements--efficiency vs kV of motor
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 07:56:30 PM »
Here are some more calculations.
One thing that has bothered me is trying to understand what throttle setting the ESC is running at for my governor mode setting. So here is something I tried.

1) I set my motor up in my test stand, along with my CC Phoenix ESC (setup for Airplane mode of throttle), an Astro Servo tester to provide the throttle input into the ESC, an Astro Whattmeter to measure the motor current and battery voltage, and a TCM tack to measure the rpm. I probably should just have used my Eagletree data recorder because it isn'
t easy writing down all the info with the prop buzzing along at a high rpm.
2) I assembled a set of 3 battery types: an Evolite 2s1p2500mAHr pack, the Brodak 3s1p 4000mAHr pack, and two of my FMA 4s1p2100 mAHr packs setup in parallel (equivalent to a single 4s2p4200mAHr pack).
3) Grabbed a series of APC Thin Electrics (10-5 through 12-10). These were there just to provide a load at full throttle. I took some care not to overload things, especially with the higher count 4s pack.
Here was the protocol.
For each pack, I first measured the rpm without a prop (no-load rpm). This gives the "no-load" current Io and the "no-load" rpm. If there were no frictional or magnetic losses, Io would=0, and the no-load rpm would be just kV*Vbattery. Then I put on a series of props, starting at the small size, moving up until I either hit my largest prop or the current was >35A (my ESC limit). All runs were at FULL Throttle, so there is no uncertainty about average and instantaneous values.

As a comment, I mounted the props backwards and ran the motor clockwise. This put the propwash away from all my measuring stuff and made it easier to write things down (I stayed upstream). I had also learned from earlier measurements that simply walking in in the propwash actuall could make +-10Watt changes in the power input.

With these measurments (Amps, Volts, and rpm), I was able to enter the motor into a FreeWare motor analyzer. This was kind of nice because it then calculated some of the standard motor parameters for me. Now I could have stopped here, but I wanted to compile a series of effective throttle settings, so what I did was write a small Mathematica program to plot power-in and power out graphs of each motor vs the rpm, as a function of input voltage. What you see here are four different voltages, from 70% throttle to 100% throttle (each line is a 10% increase in throttle)

To be relevant, the top voltage I chose was the voltage I measure at the end of a flight with my Eagle tree. Also using the Eagletree data recorder, I know what power I am drawing from the battery (Power input) for both level flight (275 watts) and during the most strenuous maneuvers (440 watts) at my flying rpm (~8000rpm). These values I show as a vertical line.

I note that if I believe these calculations, I am flying my Nobler at an effective throttle of ~75% at cruise and up to 80% during the strenuous maneuvers. Notice that there is a lot of throttle still available (it would be the intersection of the 8000 rpm point on the axis with the full throttle line (it is way past 1000 watts---although the battery would have something to say if I really would try to draw that many amps. In other words I think I am way under where I could fly!


Alan Hahn

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Some more motor measurements--efficiency vs kV of motor
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 08:09:40 PM »
Here is a similar chart for the 3014-16 Wye motor. Note that I had made this before actually putting the motor in the Nobler, and as you can see, I am flying the level lap at about  96% of full throttle (the 13.8V line), and the power needed for maneuvers is more than this kV and battery can supply at 8000 rpm. To get the 440 watts I would need, I would need to prop the motor @~7400rpm before I would have this power in the top line. Of course I also should check the power out is consistent with the power out I had in the previous picture. That is what matters of course.

If you look at the power out curves, they are parabolic and peak at exactly 1/2 the no-load rpm. At this point, the powerout is equal to 1/2 of power in. Yes you are getting a lot of power out, but the 50% inefficiency is heating up the motor bigtime!

Offline Crist Rigotti

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3859
  • Electric - The future of Old Time Stunt
Re: Some more motor measurements--efficiency vs kV of motor
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 09:36:19 PM »
Alan,
My 3020-16 has a Kv listed of 812.  Where did you get 880?  Interesting post.
Crist
AMA 482497
Waxahachie, TX
Electric - The Future of Old Time Stunt

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: Some more motor measurements--efficiency vs kV of motor
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2008, 08:02:20 AM »
***I had also learned from earlier measurements that simply walking in in the propwash actuall could make +-10Watt changes in the power input. ***


This fascinates me, that seems a great deal of change for something downstream of the power generation. I have read forever that it makes a difference but certainly not that much difference from what I recall. Nice to have instrumentation and know how it affects things isnt it?
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Alan Hahn

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Some more motor measurements--efficiency vs kV of motor
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 08:14:30 AM »
Crist,
When I wound my 3020-16 I also thought I would get a lower kV, but 880 is what I got by actual measurement. "kV" is just related to the voltage you would get if you used the motor as a generator. So a couple of possibilities are:
1) I missed a turn somewhere in the winding--I don't see how I did that, although it is possible that my definition of a turn isn't the same as Scorpion.
2) My "magnetics" are not as good as the manufactured stock motor. By this I mean that perhaps my magnets are a little subpar in strength of I have a slightly larger air gap.
3) A brushless motor is not a "stand-alone" device, it depends a lot on the ESC. So it is possible that my ESC setup (timing etc) is different enough that it influences the kV measurement at this 10% level.

I did test my stock 3020-12 for it's kV (using the my same CC ESC) and that value came out close to the manufacturer's value (I am trying to remember where I put that data!), so there is no reason to doubt as far as I know the stock values.



Offline Crist Rigotti

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3859
  • Electric - The future of Old Time Stunt
Re: Some more motor measurements--efficiency vs kV of motor
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 01:03:56 PM »
OK, I forgot that you had wound yours.  See you this weekend?  The Primary force flew last night.  Went very well.  Several full patterns.
Crist
AMA 482497
Waxahachie, TX
Electric - The Future of Old Time Stunt


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here