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Author Topic: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker  (Read 770 times)

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« on: June 11, 2019, 12:51:58 PM »
This last weekend was my first experience in flying all electric in competition.  I felt pretty good going in having made great improvements in my pattern this year with the help of Doug, Mike and Phillip.  Coming back after 35 years has proven to be considerably more difficult than I expected.  I was pleased to score a 498 last year and set my sights on about 20 points improvement this year and about another 30 next year when I have a true PA ship to fly.  I actually flew better than I expected and was complemented by my fellow travelers.  So imagine where my jaw was when they posted a 481.  Having judged a whole bunch "back in the day" I can normally guess my score so I rarely ask for my score sheets unless they are off by 10 points or more.  This time I was the 1st in line.  There was a 74 point differential between the judges.  Seems one of the judges had been overheard making comments on how much he hated electrics.

The point of all of that was background for my question:

Since "Can't hear the damn things" is one of the "Don't Likes", do you think if I put one of these in an empty pipe tunnel it will serve as an effective noise maker?

Ken
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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 01:25:52 PM »
I doubt you'll get a good 2-4 break with it.
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2019, 01:49:55 PM »
See my tag line...

Maybe an 049 and a pipe tuned for noise instead of power?

  • I wouldn't trust a report of an overheard comment unless more than one person corroborated it.
  • If a judge is being harsher on 'lectrics than on slime (or visa versa, or if they just hate steam-powered planes, or purple metalflake planes and they let that extend past appearance judging), then there's a problem with the judging, and by extension, with the organizers
  • Wide point spreads happen, but if you had one guy judging like it's the Nats (which I prefer) and another guy being "nice" at a local contest, then you could get a big spread.  I think we could do that with our local pool of judging talent here in the Pacific Northwest.
  • If you're seriously concerned that electrics are being singled out -- for better or for worse -- then you should note if there seems to be a trend in the scoring.  I, personally, would quietly mention it to the organizers, and leave it at that.  Because (A) I don't want to raise a stink, and (B) I trust the locals to organize a fair contest.
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2019, 02:29:03 PM »
not without lifting your left butt cheek.....Tim Wescotts sig line is worth noting

OTOH....smoke generator AND A Sound system with Merlin engine timed to each transition....is going to be worth 55 extra points...and truth is...with a BIG pampa plane these systems now are fairly light weight....battery is the killer
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2019, 04:01:43 PM »

  • Wide point spreads happen, but if you had one guy judging like it's the Nats (which I prefer) and another guy being "nice" at a local contest, then you could get a big spread.
My post was more to "get it out of my system" than anything else.  It's out.

No problem with the organizers and my high score was from a Nats judge so mentally I have just thrown the other one out.  In contests where I have had any say in the scoring we tried to resolve our differences if there was more than 30 or so points between judges.  That is what warm up flights are for.  This thread was not intended to be about an individual score and I am afraid I made it look that way.  What it was intended to be about was the warnings I got when I went electric.  I was told that there were judges that didn't like electric yet one look at who was flying electric told me that they were wrong.  Well, I was wrong.
It is the pipe thing all over again.

Ok, I have vented and it is time to get back to important things like eliminating some excess line rake that everybody but me notices.

I will let you know if the Fart Whistle works, I just have to try it.

Ken





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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2019, 09:31:35 AM »
Did you talk to the judges after you seen your score sheet.   I have been there and talked to the judges after my flight.  I didn't get my engine warmed up enough before take off.  The plane was a little slow on take off even though it was one of the best I had ever done.  By the time I got ready for the start of the reverse wing over the engine was up to prime.   Flew a pattern that I thought was the best I had ever flown and really worked it.  Several people made comments about my great pattern they seen me fly.  When I got my score sheet it was a big let down.  So I don't get serious any more.  Just concentrate on having fun and lately just staying vertical.  By the way the judges said the pattern was too sluggish. D>K     
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2019, 11:24:49 AM »
Did you talk to the judges after you seen your score sheet.   I have been there and talked to the judges after my flight.  I didn't get my engine warmed up enough before take off.  The plane was a little slow on take off even though it was one of the best I had ever done.  By the time I got ready for the start of the reverse wing over the engine was up to prime.   Flew a pattern that I thought was the best I had ever flown and really worked it.  Several people made comments about my great pattern they seen me fly.  When I got my score sheet it was a big let down.  So I don't get serious any more.  Just concentrate on having fun and lately just staying vertical.  By the way the judges said the pattern was too sluggish. D>K     
Only talked to the Nats judge.  He had scored me with a low end expert score which is exactly what I flew.  He was supersized that the other judge gave me a score that would have barely placed in intermediate. 

Now to your experience, I think it is the same section of the rule book that covers not having a piped engine also covers sluggish.  No wait, it is only a guideline near the end of the Judges Guide under the heading "You are now a God - Get Even" >:D

I probably would have scored you higher for flying well with a bad engine run under that same "guideline".
 y1 

I am sort of taking the same path you did.  I can't get to out of town contests so my contest season is the 2-3 local ones we have.  I am going to just have fun since how I fly will have no impact on my score.  I really hope the "Fart Whistle" works.  It will be petty and childish and worth it.

Hey, thanks for listening.

ken

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2019, 02:04:43 PM »
I probably would have scored you higher for flying well with a bad engine run under that same "guideline".

Neither is correct.  The contestant should be judged on the maneuvers done, whatever the speed.  (Well, if you're going 90 miles an hour I'm going to score you for what good I can see, not what mistakes I miss).  If you complete the pattern in time, it wasn't too "sluggish".  OTOH, if your shapes are off, whether because the plane was sluggish or because you were having a bad day, you should be marked down.

Now, after the event is over I might congratulate and/or criticize -- but that's different.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2019, 03:56:18 PM »
Neither is correct.  The contestant should be judged on the maneuvers done, whatever the speed.  (Well, if you're going 90 miles an hour I'm going to score you for what good I can see, not what mistakes I miss).  If you complete the pattern in time, it wasn't too "sluggish".  OTOH, if your shapes are off, whether because the plane was sluggish or because you were having a bad day, you should be marked down.

Now, after the event is over I might congratulate and/or criticize -- but that's different.
You missed the prior sentence:
No wait, it is only a guideline near the end of the Judges Guide under the heading "You are now a God - Get Even" >:D

That was not intended to be serious.  When I judge I only judge what I see.  Not how fast it was or what it sounded like or what color it was or who is flying it.

Ken
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2019, 04:16:14 PM »
Try not to make snotty comments when you judge. If the pilot is flying electric, they can hear you.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2019, 04:58:06 PM »
Try not to make snotty comments when you judge. If the pilot is flying electric, they can hear you.
Since I was a Junior I always talked to myself all through the pattern.  When I went Electric I had stop doing it and for the first time in my life I left out a maneuver.  So I put the narrative back in leaving out the words that are spelled without letters (&^**&%&$)  Better now.  It is demoralizing when you hear "What the F*** was that" coming from upwind LL~

Ken
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Offline TDM

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2019, 06:43:37 PM »
I am pretty sure I get smashed by judges when I fly. I can see from sideline what others are flying too and in one particular case I am scored 15 points over the next contestant and we talked after the contest and he agreed that my flight was a heck of a lot better to just score only 15 point above his flight score. Frankly I am scratching my head off in amazement wondering what did I do so wrong to get a 30 on a maneuver while the other judge is scoring a 38. By the way a 30 scale 1-10 is a 6.66 basically and a 38 is a 9.33. So yes I am confused. I would love to talk and see where am I doing so wrong.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2019, 09:11:16 PM »
I am pretty sure I get smashed by judges when I fly. I can see from sideline what others are flying too and in one particular case I am scored 15 points over the next contestant and we talked after the contest and he agreed that my flight was a heck of a lot better to just score only 15 point above his flight score. Frankly I am scratching my head off in amazement wondering what did I do so wrong to get a 30 on a maneuver while the other judge is scoring a 38. By the way a 30 scale 1-10 is a 6.66 basically and a 38 is a 9.33. So yes I am confused. I would love to talk and see where am I doing so wrong.
I don't think you will get smashed at the Nats.  In fact it would not surprise me to see an all electric finals in the near future.  I don't see many people going back once they have made the switch and gone through the learning curve.  Judges, especially the ones that don't fly, have to do the same.  It will get better.  I don't know about you but I get quite a few questions from intermediate and advanced fliers who are considering the change.  They see how little time I have to spend on preparation, the little tackle box that has everything i need in it and how solid a run I get every time.  But, when they see this sort of thing happen it can't help. Every time there is a quantum change in the technology we use there is resistance.  Why do you think they call it the "Dark Side"  I even go so far as to use Darth Vader as my pilot figure.  It will get better.
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Offline TDM

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2019, 07:42:56 AM »
Thanks Ken but I am not holding my breath. I am in double jeopardy here wit ha model that is out of this world technologically and electric on top of it.

I should do a Ghost Paint Darth Vader helmet on the wing. Maybe an Imperial destroyer theme in the paint job. I forgot of course the star wars soundtrack and the Tie Fighter sound track.

When you look at scores and you see 15 points between two flights that are night and day between them it kills your drive and I am puling out the BS sign. It also makes you think we need an automated scoring video based computer driven. This kind of bias is crap and must stop.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2019, 12:28:36 PM »
Thanks Ken but I am not holding my breath. I am in double jeopardy here wit ha model that is out of this world technologically and electric on top of it.

I should do a Ghost Paint Darth Vader helmet on the wing. Maybe an Imperial destroyer theme in the paint job. I forgot of course the star wars soundtrack and the Tie Fighter sound track.

When you look at scores and you see 15 points between two flights that are night and day between them it kills your drive and I am puling out the BS sign. It also makes you think we need an automated scoring video based computer driven. This kind of bias is crap and must stop.
I seriously do not think that they know the impact all of this has on us.  There is very little we can do other than vent every now and then (which is what I am doing) because the people that can do something about it don't see the problem and those that see the problem are powerless to fix it. The best flier I have ever known told me once that the only way to stop this is to just be so good that they have to give you the score.

Ken
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 03:34:53 PM »
Fart Whistle came today.  I will flight test it Saturday.  I was hoping for a deep Merlin" sound but what it makes sounds more like that sick moan an overheating McCoy makes right before it locks up.

Ken
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 03:46:26 PM »
......and the Tie Fighter sound track
It sounds just like that!  Maybe I am on to something. LL~ LL~ LL~

Ken
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2019, 10:01:08 AM »
I believe that, once you have been "calibrated", no amount of perfection in your pattern will do any good.  For many, your score range has been pre=ordained.  Your near=perfect pattern might budge the judges a little bit, but once your "area reputation" has been finalized, you just have to be content with the same ranking as ever.

The solution, of course, is to move to a different part of the country, and fly under an alias, where they might not know you.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2019, 11:00:43 AM »
I believe that, once you have been "calibrated", no amount of perfection in your pattern will do any good.  For many, your score range has been pre=ordained.  Your near=perfect pattern might budge the judges a little bit, but once your "area reputation" has been finalized, you just have to be content with the same ranking as ever.

The solution, of course, is to move to a different part of the country, and fly under an alias, where they might not know you.
There is more truth to this than most will admit to.  It is the nature of subjective judging and it is the same in any sport that has it.  I can't get out to other contests for now so my three locals are a season for me.  I can almost take the flight order at one of our contests and tell you who is going to place and where before the first flight.  For some reason judges (and let's be fair here, most of our judges are the guy that couldn't fly for some reason and was not quick enough to duck the CD LL~) tend to not judge maneuvers independent of each other.  Lets say you have been bracketed at 30 and you are flying well and getting 33's or so.  Along comes the hourglass and you do a flat sided vertical lazy 8 as a lot of flyers do.  That is a clear 20-22 but I will bet that it gets a 28-29.

What bothers me the most is the reputation damage it does.  If you win, you continue to win.  If you don't win you may never win so winning cannot be the reason that most of us fly and compete.  It has to be the fun we have complaining about the judging. LL~ LL~ LL~
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2019, 10:23:50 AM »
Sorry I got off on a tangent.  I quit flying in competition exactly for the reason that a multi-year effort to improve my pattern actually produced great results... except at contests.

My last contest produced, I believe, my finest flight ever.  But where did I end up?  You guessed it.  About where I had ended up for years.
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2019, 08:21:43 PM »
I believe that, once you have been "calibrated", no amount of perfection in your pattern will do any good.  For many, your score range has been pre=ordained.  Your near=perfect pattern might budge the judges a little bit, but once your "area reputation" has been finalized, you just have to be content with the same ranking as ever.

The solution, of course, is to move to a different part of the country, and fly under an alias, where they might not know you.

For the most part, I don't believe this is the case.  I fly, and I get pretty close to the score I think I deserve.  I judge, and I'm not thinking "OK, it's Bob FliesWell, he gets a 38 on this maneuver" or "Oh, it's Ralph CrappyCorners, he gets 28".  Where I do see the same people coming out and getting the same scores, it's because they're flying about as well as they always have.

There are a few people whose patterns I recognize, because they make the same mistakes over and over again -- there's the guy who would be making 40 point loops if only the rulebook called for 15-foot long flat sections on the top and the bottom, and the guy whose triangles would consistently score 33 or better if only the rulebook called for a triangle to start with a 95 degree turn, then have another 95 degree turn, then have a most-of-a-half loop to level, and all the guys who pop up on takeoff (which, unfortunately, I did today, and it showed in my score).  But if I happen to be judging them, I'm not marking them for who they are, I'm marking them for how they fly.

The solution is to take the trip down to California once a year and attend the Stunt Clinic down there, or the one down south (Georgia?  Louisiana?  I can't remember -- sorry guys, I just know it's someplace with heat, humidity, and kudzu).  Then your mistakes will be pointed out, and you'll know what to work on in practice.
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Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2019, 01:01:50 PM »
Smoke ?

Just use Lucas Electrics . It should be integral .    S?P


Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke Generator and Noise Maker
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2019, 01:05:46 PM »
Sorry I got off on a tangent.  I quit flying in competition exactly for the reason that a multi-year effort to improve my pattern actually produced great results... except at contests.

My last contest produced, I believe, my finest flight ever.  But where did I end up?  You guessed it.  About where I had ended up for years.
I am experiencing the same thing but I am taking a different approach.  If it pans out great, if it doesn't then nothing is lost.  I totally underestimated how difficult what we do is and how long it takes to regain the muscle memory it takes to fly at the highest levels.  I was at a total loss for why I had not moved up the scoreboard this year.  Then it dawned on me that there were others practicing and getting better right along with me so to move up I needed to get better faster than they were.  When you hit your 70's your muscle memory starts to get Alzheimer's and you have to keep reminding them.  What all of this means is that you need to reevaluate your goals and get back to having FUN.  If a trip to the podium happens then - WOW,  but if it doesn't then flying up to your ability and having FUN are all that matters.

Contests serve a purpose far more than just handing out awards.  They are fund raisers for the club, a place to swap lies with your friends, get your knees sunburned and they get you out of the house for a couple of days.  Most importantly they give you the chance to stack your skills up against the others in the hobby and dream of that 645 that is only one flight away.  We need fliers to compete, even if they are barely capable of placing last, at least they placed.

I felt the same as you following my last contest.  It took me nearly a year to build the plane I flew and to look at it after my 2nd official placed me firmly in last had me eyeballing the dumpster.  It took me nearly 2 days to fully recover and resume work on my next creation.  If I get last with that one it may take me 3 days to recover.   Keep going!

Ken
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