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Author Topic: Smoke and Sparks flying  (Read 1264 times)

Online Ken Culbertson

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Smoke and Sparks flying
« on: January 28, 2019, 11:17:40 AM »
Just when I thought I had done all of the stupid things you can do with electrics I got reminded that the list is quite long.  I plugged the balancing cable for a second battery into a multi board and it nearly exploded.   I yanked the batteries off before I could see just exactly what I did but it was either a bad board (it was new) or I put a 4s into a 5s slot or put it backwards - both of which are supposed to be impossible.  I had given up on the board for charging since the best I could get was 85% so I thought I would try it in the storage mode.  Next I am going to try it in the "Place it in the trash" mode.

I have ordered some new balancing connectors to replace the melted ones.  My question is can you safely replace the balancing connector on a charged battery?  If not, can the battery be safely discharged w/o balancing?  Will a charger work w/o the balancing plug to confirm the battery type?  Can I just set the timer to 7 min and watch it run down till the prop stops or would it be better to re-solder the plug with the battery charged?

Anybody been there/done that and lived to tell about it?

Thanks - Ken
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 11:28:54 AM »
You can make the process safe, by taking great care in the job.  It's not inherently safe.

You can't fully discharge a LiPo and have it be useful -- a LiPo will still deliver current well past the point where it is permanently damaged.  So you can't render it safe by discharging.  I suspect you can render it safeer, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

Get everything lined up.  Remove one and only one wire from the old connector (or cut it and strip it to splice onto the new -- whatever).  Get that one wire installed on the new connector so that it cannot short out to anything.  Repeat the process one wire at a time until you're done.

If you're worried, have a metal or pottery container handy to brush the battery into -- LiPo cells don't burst into flame reliably enough to be a weapon, but they have their own fuel and oxidant in the same package, so when they do burst into flame you can't put them out -- you can only wait them out, and you can only do that if you can isolate them from anything flammable.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 11:37:42 AM »
Well said Tim.  I might add that if you are going down to the battery top, not just splicing new leads, you will need to have something to re-cover the battery pack  - correct size shrink or equivalent.
Fred
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 12:16:25 PM »
I just want to add: my first experience ever with changing a connector on a battery pack was when I snipped the connector off of a clapped out, 100mAh NiCd receiver pack.  As soon as the dykes were biting into both wires they melted through the insulation and into each other -- at that point all I could do was sit there helplessly and watch the show.  Fortunately NiCd cells rarely do more than get Really Hot.

For some reason, ever since then I've been careful about working with batteries.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 12:21:50 PM »
You can make the process safe, by taking great care in the job.  It's not inherently safe.

You can't fully discharge a LiPo and have it be useful -- a LiPo will still deliver current well past the point where it is permanently damaged.  So you can't render it safe by discharging.  I suspect you can render it safeer, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

Get everything lined up.  Remove one and only one wire from the old connector (or cut it and strip it to splice onto the new -- whatever).  Get that one wire installed on the new connector so that it cannot short out to anything.  Repeat the process one wire at a time until you're done.

If you're worried, have a metal or pottery container handy to brush the battery into -- LiPo cells don't burst into flame reliably enough to be a weapon, but they have their own fuel and oxidant in the same package, so when they do burst into flame you can't put them out -- you can only wait them out, and you can only do that if you can isolate them from anything flammable.

Thanks Tim - I pretty much expected that I would have a minor surgery to deal with.  If they can go KA-BOOM by just shorting one of those little wires, I DO NOT want to short one of those little wires.  Fortunately I have wire on all of them past the battery covering and all of them appear undamaged except for the balancing plug.  It all looks so innocent at only 14v until you remember that you start your car with 12v.

My main question was discharging and you answered that.  I will leave them charged.  The 14v shock from a full LiPo is the same as the 14v shock from a nearly discharged one.   

So far the only downside to electric is what to do with 6 batteries if you don't get to fly.  I have been told that a week is not to long to leave them charged so I don't unless we skip 2 weeks.  Not uncommon in winter, even in Texas.  For some reason it takes about 2 hours to discharge my 4s 2800's and only an hour to charge.  Storage takes even longer.  I am thinking that running them on the plane to 20% might be better than using the discharge on the charger.

So many questions, so little time!

Ken
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 12:29:19 PM »
Discharging by running down on the plane is static condition is not great.  There is not good airflow, so heat, and amp draw will be higher, though you can control that with a prop change.  Some ideas here

https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/battery-discharger/
Fred
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 12:58:14 PM »
Discharging by running down on the plane is static condition is not great.  There is not good airflow, so heat, and amp draw will be higher, though you can control that with a prop change.  Some ideas here

https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/battery-discharger/

Not quite to zero.  That was more tongue in cheek.  I was thinking more around 50%.  How long can you leave a battery fully charged without damage anyway and what, if any risk is there to leaving them at 20% after running them down by my favorite method - flying!  If all is well, I get to fly each eeekend.  Is a week at 20% battery abuse?  Is that a crime?  Will I have to register?


Ken
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 01:14:35 PM »
Sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't mean to imply to 0.  Discharging by motor run on a static plane a significant amount can cause problems and heat.  I prefer to not leave a battery fully charged unless ready for a flight.  If I an not sure that I will fly, I may charge to 80 - 90% and then finish at the field.  If I dont fly, I go back to storage in the 50 - 60% range.  I will leave an 80% battery until the next day.  Time setting at full charge is not good for the battery.  Leaving them at 20% is also not best, thus the storage charge setting on chargers.  Here is a great source

https://batteryuniversity.com/

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Batteries are obviously consumable but they may consume less quickly with good care.  A good charger and discharger make that much easier.

Fred
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 01:21:39 PM »
Most questions about prolonging the life of LiPos are best answered in a clear voice with a firm, confident "maybe".  this page on Battery University may help -- it seems to indicate that your plan of staring at 20% won't be too bad.

Questions like these are ones that, in professional circles, are answered by choosing a particularly patient and methodical Kid Engineer, and locking them in a lab with a bunch of stuff (in this case, batteries and test equipment), and letting them out in time to write a report for the next project meeting.  It's kinda expensive to do that on your own, though.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 11:51:54 PM »
You can make the process safe, by taking great care in the job.  It's not inherently safe.

You can't fully discharge a LiPo and have it be useful -- a LiPo will still deliver current well past the point where it is permanently damaged.  So you can't render it safe by discharging.  I suspect you can render it safeer, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

Get everything lined up.  Remove one and only one wire from the old connector (or cut it and strip it to splice onto the new -- whatever).  Get that one wire installed on the new connector so that it cannot short out to anything.  Repeat the process one wire at a time until you're done.

If you're worried, have a metal or pottery container handy to brush the battery into -- LiPo cells don't burst into flame reliably enough to be a weapon, but they have their own fuel and oxidant in the same package, so when they do burst into flame you can't put them out -- you can only wait them out, and you can only do that if you can isolate them from anything flammable.
Did it your way and two batteries are back on line!  I know that changing the wires one by one guarantees that you get them in the right order but it appears that only the #1 wire and maybe the last wire matter.   I don't plan to have to find out!

Thanks - Ken
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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 12:17:41 AM »
either a bad board (it was new) or I put a 4s into a 5s slot or put it backwards.

I may have missed a cause.  What would make a battery cause  the charger to display "Reverse Polarity" when the balancing cable is attached?  Is it possible to have the wires on the balancing plug reversed and the battery still charge as a single?   I have looked at the wiring diagram for the battery and it appears that the battery might charge if the 1st and 5th wires are reversed.  And, if that is true what would happen if you plugged that battery along with a good one into a parallel multiple battery board?  Is this even possible?   If it is, is there anything I can use to test my fleet before plugging them into the parallel board again.  Both of them had about 10 cycles on a single charger before I tried to sacrifice them to the Dark Side.

Ken
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 09:14:40 AM »
I may have missed a cause.  What would make a battery cause  the charger to display "Reverse Polarity" when the balancing cable is attached?  Is it possible to have the wires on the balancing plug reversed and the battery still charge as a single?   I have looked at the wiring diagram for the battery and it appears that the battery might charge if the 1st and 5th wires are reversed.  And, if that is true what would happen if you plugged that battery along with a good one into a parallel multiple battery board?  Is this even possible?   If it is, is there anything I can use to test my fleet before plugging them into the parallel board again.  Both of them had about 10 cycles on a single charger before I tried to sacrifice them to the Dark Side.

Ken

I don't think a battery charger would work if any of the wires in the balancing plug were swapped.  I looked at all of my batteries balancing plugs.  With the balancing plug laying so that you can see the contacts the black wire is on the right.  This wire is always the negative side of cell #1.  From there the next 4 wires are cells 1 through 4. A note of interest is that their was not a standard color code to indicate cell number.  Having said that the cells always cane in sequence from right to left and the black wire was always ground (or negative) for cell one.  So you can place the negative lead of a digital volt meter on the black lead (lead on the right) and measure the other leads from right to left.  On the battery in the picture I measured as follows: First to second lead 3.73V, first the third lead 8.01V, first to forth lead 12.02 volts, and first to 5th lead 16.36V.  The polarity on the meter always showed positive voltage.  In fact you can measure the voltage of each cell individually.  1&2 is cell #1. 2&3 is cell #2, 3&4 is cell #3, and 4&5 is cell #4.  So anyway, if any of the wires were swapped in the balance plug a charger, that is worth having, will reject a miss wired plug.  Photo attached of the plug I am talking about.
John Rist
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 10:21:02 AM »
I don't think a battery charger would work if any of the wires in the balancing plug were swapped.  I looked at all of my batteries balancing plugs.  With the balancing plug laying so that you can see the contacts the black wire is on the right.  This wire is always the negative side of cell #1.  From there the next 4 wires are cells 1 through 4. A note of interest is that their was not a standard color code to indicate cell number.  Having said that the cells always cane in sequence from right to left and the black wire was always ground (or negative) for cell one.  So you can place the negative lead of a digital volt meter on the black lead (lead on the right) and measure the other leads from right to left.  On the battery in the picture I measured as follows: First to second lead 3.73V, first the third lead 8.01V, first to forth lead 12.02 volts, and first to 5th lead 16.36V.  The polarity on the meter always showed positive voltage.  In fact you can measure the voltage of each cell individually.  1&2 is cell #1. 2&3 is cell #2, 3&4 is cell #3, and 4&5 is cell #4.  So anyway, if any of the wires were swapped in the balance plug a charger, that is worth having, will reject a miss wired plug.  Photo attached of the plug I am talking about.
This pretty much confirms what I was thinking but I needed to hear it from someone that knew what they were talking about.  I wish there was a standard too.  I have 8 batteries right now with 4 different color patterns, some even within a single mfg. and the replacement plugs I ordered didn't match any of them.  Even the black wire is in a different spot on some.  ???

I was an electrician as a kid so I have developed the "knee jerk" reaction to voltage that keeps you alive.  I had those batteries yanked out of the charger before I even saw what was wrong.  I may never know now.  I suspect that the only thing that could have happened was that I plugged the second battery's balancing plug in backwards.  Supposedly that can't happen but I have already had a Deans arc when I tried it backwards by mistake and that can't happen either. mw~

What else is there that can't happen that I have to look forward too? #^

Ken
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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 12:06:22 PM »
Did it your way and two batteries are back on line!  I know that changing the wires one by one guarantees that you get them in the right order but it appears that only the #1 wire and maybe the last wire matter.   I don't plan to have to find out!

Thanks - Ken

First and last give total voltage and internally are on the red and black leads.  Each wire matters for balance and gives cell to cell voltage.  Take a volt meter and put black on black or the balance lead and then walk across the colors with the red meter lead and you see a cell added with each move if the wires are in order. Or move both meter leads and read the cell to cell to cell voltage.

If I have to change plugs, to a different manufacturer,  I do one at a time and realize that colors may not match but order has to match, and has to match the plug direction.  You could get a plug with different color end leads.  Look at plug polarity, not colors.
Fred
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoke and Sparks flying
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2019, 12:51:44 PM »
First and last give total voltage and internally are on the red and black leads.  Each wire matters for balance and gives cell to cell voltage.  Take a volt meter and put black on black or the balance lead and then walk across the colors with the red meter lead and you see a cell added with each move if the wires are in order. Or move both meter leads and read the cell to cell to cell voltage.

If I have to change plugs, to a different manufacturer,  I do one at a time and realize that colors may not match but order has to match, and has to match the plug direction.  You could get a plug with different color end leads.  Look at plug polarity, not colors.
Thanks Fred - It is better to know than to guess when it comes to electricity.

Ken
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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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