Ok, I'm basically moved into my new house and can finally start building something. I've chosen a Magician. Now, for good reasons (mess, smell, & most importantly, hearing) I've decided to make the switch to electric, at least for the bigger stuff (might still do glow 1/2A).

Since I have none of the equipment for electric, I need to be schooled (somewhat). I've looked around on the "List Your Setup" and such, and have narrowed down my choices to the following:

Brodak
Warbird Electric Conversion Kit BH-1938 - $9
Arrowind 2815/09 Motor BH-1843 - $40
Hubin FM-9 Timer BH-1854 - $21

RCDude.com
Castle Creations Talon 35A ESC - $43
Cobra 2820/12 970Kv Motor - $43

Pat Johnston
E-Conversion kit (specifically called out as for the Magician) - unknown price

HobbyKing
Turnigy D2836/9 950 Kv Motor - cheap, only about $14
HobbyKing 40A ESC - $20
Turnigy Plush-32 40A ESC - $22
(3) Zippy Compact 2700mAh 4S 25C batteries - $22 each

RSM Distributions
Complete Competition Level System Equal to .25 Glow Power - $225

Various
KR Timer (not sure where to get it)
Castle Phoenix 45A ESC
ICE Lite 50A ESC (gov high mode)

Oh, and I will need a charger that can charge perhaps as many as 4 batteries at once, even at the field. The big sticking point is price - I know RSM has a turnkey system for about $225, but I would still need a charger, conversion kit, and a line on other (cheaper) batteries.

It seems that every time I try to educate myself on how to choose a motor, battery, & ESC, I get more confused. I want a cheap setup that'll produce as much power as a .20/.25FP, .25LA, Fox 35, OS Max 35S. I'm only considering the Turnigy motors because they are cheap, and I haven't flown in about 15 years (crashes bound to happen as I get my stunt legs back), so they would be easier to replace than a $40-45 motor.

Lastly, can someone please help educate me on 3S vs 4S batteries? I know the 4S will produce more watts (hp) for a given charge size, but is it just simple algebra to find the 3S equivalent? And how does the C rating fit in to all of this.

(rummages around in the sticky post above about batteries) This is what I've found. For a 2700mAh 4S 25C battery:
(((2700mAh / 1000) * 25C) * (3.7 * 4S)) / 746W/HP = 1.339HP possible from the battery. From this, it looks like increasing the mAH rating by 1/3 while keeping the "C" rating the same will maintain about the same wattage/hp delivered, as well as flight time. Is this right?

Steve

Here’s my free advice. Consider it worth every penny you paid for it:

Don’t start this adventure with 3S batteries. I did, and later decided to standardize on 4S. Selling and giving away unwanted batteries was a money losing venture. Now I’m eyeballing 5S.

Not that you asked, but...
Don’t build your battery compartment to fit snugly on the battery of your choice. You may choose differently later. Or the battery might swell up a little bit and no longer fit. Don’t ask how I know...

I use, and recommend, Cobra motors. The 2820/12 you mention is what I use on my Primary Force, similar in size to a 48” Magician. I’ve had very good luck with it.

Get the ICE Lite 50 amp ESC. It allows data logging, and you can look at lots of different data sets. Specifically, you can look at amp draw data after your flight and decide if a Talon 35 would work for you and swap that in to save a little weight. I think a Talon 35 would be marginal.

I use both Hubin and KR timers, and after 5 years I still can’t decide which is better.
With the Hubin FM-9 you have to buy or borrow a $80 programmer, but the timers are inexpensive.
KR timers are programmed with an inexpensive programming stick, but the timers are more pricey than the Hubin. KR timers also have a prop strike shut down feature which is nice.

ThunderPower batteries are my preference. Wait for them to be 50% off after Black Friday.

Get a good charger up front. I started with a cheap one and ruined some batteries. Stepped up to a decent charger and had better luck, but it failed after a short time. Now I use Revolectrix PowerLab chargers and I won’t look back.

I hope you know how to solder. If not, learn. You’ll be doing plenty of it.

and I haven't flown in about 15 years (crashes bound to happen as I get my stunt legs back), so they would be easier to replace than a $40-45 motor.

Lastly, can someone please help educate me on 3S vs 4S batteries? I know the 4S will produce more watts (hp) for a given charge size, but is it just simple algebra to find the 3S equivalent? And how does the C rating fit in to all of this.
Steve

Welcome to E-World.  I made the switch about a year ago and I am not looking back.  I even converted my Classic.  I just want to comment on a couple of things.  I was fortunate to have a local mentor who was about 2 years ahead of me in making all of the rookie mistakes so I got to start with the sophomore level mistakes! 

In this arena there is Cheap and there is Inexpensive and they do not mean the same.  There are a lot of batteries out there that are cheap.  If you don't recognize the names avoid them.  Thunderpower is the weapon of choice at the upper levels but others such as Turnigy and Zippy are much cheaper and in my experience not much different in performance.  Where they do differ is weight.  Thunderpower batteries are lighter.  A 6s 3300 TP is about the same weight as a 5s Zippy.

As it has already been advised, don't skimp on the "s" value of your battery.  Weight comes from the capacity of the battery.  A 3s battery will give you what you need but it will require about 25% more capacity to do it and your motor will not have the same "umph"  A Cobra 2820/12 is a .46 size motor so it is perfect for what you are going to be using it for.  Start with the 4s 2800 or above.  Batteries draw differently as the temperature changes.  We are coming up on cooler weather which will trick you into thinking your batteries are bigger than they are.  Mine change as much as 15% draw from summer to winter.

Don't worry so much about crashing.  If you were "crash resistant" when you quit you will still be when you start flying again.  I was out over 30 years and flew the entire pattern on my 3rd flight back (not counting a bunch of aborted flights getting my 35s to run out a tank). You simply don't forget.

In summary - pick a motor larger than what you need, batteries with more capacity than you need and if you are going to spend money on anything at the front end make it the charger.  That is the one thing I hate about electric.  You can't just grab your plane and head to the field on a whim.  Lipo's require care and you can't just leave them charged.

Welcome to the Dark Side

Ken

Ken,

I may have to hook up with you then sometime. I live just right over in Lewisville, and I know you fly at Hobby Park in Garland (Dallas). Mind if I pick your brain on this?

I'm also looking at BadAss motors, particularly the BadAss 2820-1080, which has a max of 962 watts that it can take from a 4S. Trying to figure out what size battery that'll take. I wish there was a simple spreadsheet where you put in the motor parameters and it tells you the size battery you need. Also one that can help me decide which size motor to get. I keep getting myself more & more confused.....

Don't mind at all.  In fact, you might want to join us at the site sometime.  We usually fly Sat and Sunday from Sun Up in the morning to winds blowing which is usually around 10:00-11:00.  If you have a cell phone that can text, we usually take a census on Friday to see who will be coming and pick a time.  Nobody really likes to fly alone.

I have never tried a BasAss so I can't speak to their quality.  I am pretty sure it will work and there is no reason I can think of to buy expensive equipment for your first adventure into electric.  My first motor/esc/timers are all being used to fit in while building a new ship since I destroyed all of them individually by making dumb mistakes.  Electric is not very forgiving when it comes to being stupid. That little battery has enough juice to start your car.

Most motors give you an "S" range for battery's and your ESC probably does the same.  You don't want to pick the lowest value but you probably don't need the highest either so go for the middle.  28xx size motors usually range from 3 to 5.  If you get into the .60-.75 size electrics 35xx they will go from 4-6.
Three reasons to pick the middle value.  Price, weight and umph.  Weight is primary determined by the capacity 3000, 3300, etc.  On a 28xx I would not go below 2800 although I have run a set of 2200's in the winter.  They run cooler which uses less battery for some reason.  If you are at 4s and your plane needs more "power" you can move up to a 5s without changing your lap times and still have more power in maneuvers.

The thing that you are probably not anticipating is that the prop is the center of focus when it comes to battery usage.  There are a lot of different props out there and you are going to have to just experiment till you find the right combination.

Make sure you have a battery checker that you use before you put a battery in and after you take it out of your plane.  In time you will know what the differences mean and where the limit are that tell you something is not right.  In my case my Cobra 2820/12 leaves me with about 28% left on a 4s 2800.  It goes to 32% on a 3000.  That is a normal day in the 80's with about a 5mph wind.  Fly it at 100 degrees in a dead calm and it will suck the battery dry.  You will learn in time what to expect.  If that battery ever shows less than 10% then don't do whatever you just did again till you find out why and get that battery on a charger ASAP.  They should never set for very long under 30% or over 60%  That is why I like to get mine to finish in the mid 30's so that I don't have to put them back on the charger when I get home.

Keep each battery in a baggie when you go to the field.  Keeps them from getting a short and you can record usage on the bag.  Battries will go bad.  Every manufacturer claims more cycles than you will get in reality.  I am getting somewhere around 50-75 before they don't have the juice to go the full 5.5 minutes.  KEEP THEM at storage voltage.  Lipo batteries run full power right to the end so when one starts to get old it is not the power that goes, it is the duration.  When you have trim problems or a new ship it is really nice to be able to fly a series of 1 minute flights to fix things.  They are great for that.

Ken

I have heard a different story from people who fly and crash electric.  If you mount the motor on a breakaway bracket, then you can arrange things so the bracket will bend or break before the motor does (there's a thread on this somewhere).  If the batteries are mounted reasonably, then they shouldn't be damaged unless the crash was bad enough to take out an IC engine.

Absolutely.  My Cobra 3520/12 has had two "direct hits" on pavement and the motor is still in use, and thanks to the collapsible nose, so is the airplane.  We don't have the vibration issue to deal with so our noses need to have rigidity but not crush strength.  If you hit hard enough to damage a $50 Cobra 3520/12 you are going to wipe out a $300-600 pipe job as well.
If anything, I would say that the electric motors are less damage prone in a crash.  Another thing that is different is that a motor runs at a fixed RPM.  You shear off a prop and it still runs at that same RPM even if you don't have a no load cutoff in your ESC.  Shear off a prop on an IC and you get to watch it cook itself till it locks up.

I am sure that most in the Pipe Puddle ranks will disagree and that is what makes this so fun!

FYI I sent you a PM

Ken

the 4S2200 25C Zippy compact batteries have been good for 6 years.

As far as batteries for this mtr./airplane combo goes I would not use anything bigger than a 4S2200 because the increased weight of larger batteries would have a negative effect on flight performance. My Magician flew best on 4S1800 batteries but would not last long enough for the full Intermediate stunt pattern so I had to go to the 2200 size for increased flight time.

How far down are you drawing the batteries?  I don't see how you can get a full pattern in on a 2200 and not run it down pretty low.  I have a set for my ARF Nobler running a Cobra 2826 and I have to cut my flight time to 5:15 to keep remaining capacity at 15% which is borderline bad and 5:15 means no extra laps.  I don't think the weight between the 2200 and the 2800 is all that much.  Size is my issue.  The 2800 just won't fit in that little nose!

Ken

Ken

A 5-1/2 min flight time uses 80% of the 2200mah capacity. And these batteries have lasted for 6 yrs being used in this manner with no bad effects. 

I see what I missed.  Smaller motor, smaller plane.

Ken

I can say that my Brodak Magician did a fine job with the Arrowind 2815/09 motor for about 200 flights then the bearings went bad and I replaced the Arrowind with a Emax 2815 (can't tell any difference between the two mtrs) and been flying it for almost 150 flights with this mtr with no issue so far. The Hubin timer has worked flawlessly and the 4S2200 25C Zippy compact batteries have been good for 6 years. I flew it last week and was surprised that the batteries were still good. I built this airplane in 2011 as my re-entry into C/L flying after a 35 yr. absence and this combination package has served me very well. There are better mtrs than the Arrowind but the Magician is not a Nats contender unless you are a beginner flyer, and in this situation the Arrowind is more than adequate.  . As far as batteries for this mtr./airplane combo goes I would not use anything bigger than a 4S2200 because the increased weight of larger batteries would have a negative effect on flight performance. My Magician flew best on 4S1800 batteries but would not last long enough for the full Intermediate stunt pattern so I had to go to the 2200 size for increased flight time.

This is a great little package and will fly that plane well. I've flown similar on ARF Flite Streaks and have also used similar in ARF Noblers and a UHP Gieski Nobler. You can swap the motor for many of the similar ones that are available. If its me I'd use this one, this is our go to cheep motor and as far as I'm concerned disposable. https://www.hobbypartz.com/86mb22-rocket-3015-1035kv.html . Speaking of Badass Motors. I already have 2 and have flown one. They are made very well, work great (6 flights on a Genesis Extreme on a 2626 690 and a 6 cell 2800). These motors are a new release will make their mark in the coming years.

Dan,
Didn't you win Open beginner stunt at the Nationals with this setup?

Yes Dave this airplane did win Beginner Stunt at the Nats in 2012 and it won Intermediate Nostalgia 30 at Brodak in 2014. It has been good to me. It still flies better than I do these days.