News:


  • June 06, 2024, 03:40:08 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Battery position w/r to the COM  (Read 1403 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 740
Battery position w/r to the COM
« on: October 05, 2015, 08:36:48 PM »
Hello,
Assume the following coordinate system: X axis is pointing toward the tail, Z axis is up when the model is on the ground and Y axis is pointing towards the outside wing. The origin of this right handed Cartesian coordinate system is in the model COM (Centre of Mass).
When the battery is in front of the wings and its plane of longitudinal symmetry is in the XY plane of the model, the moment of battery w/r to the X axis of the model is zero. The moment of the battery w/r to the Y and Z axes of the model is equal the weight of the battery times the distance between the battery COM and the model COM.

The ideal place for the battery COM is in the model COM but the model COM is usually inside the wing and close to the bellcrank so this location is not really feasible.

The usual place for the battery is in front of the wings on the model center line (X axis) and this requires longer aft portion of the fuselage to balance the Y and Z moments of the battery. Longer fuselage = heavier fuselage.

If the battery is placed directly above the wings in the build-up fuselage like in my Little Great White (LGW), the X position of the battery can be easily adjusted and this is very useful in defining the COM of the RTF model. The battery above the wings allows for shorter nose and shorter aft portion of the fuselage and gives weight savings.

This arrangement generates, however, the additional parasite moment of the battery about the X axis of the model and this moment affects the model position in the air but the model position in the air can be adjusted using the ailerons. Such parasitic effect is more visible in smaller and lighter models as the battery weight constitutes the higher percentage of the RTF weight. LGW is only 25 oz. and the battery (3S 2200 mAh) weights 189 grams ( 6.67 oz) so the ratio is 3.75. 36 oz RFT mid-size model using 4S 2200 mAh battery weighting 232 grams ( 8.2 oz) has the ratio of 4.39. Full size model weighting RTF 60 oz. may use 5S 2600-2700 mAh battery weighting 330 grams ( 11.6 oz) and the ratio is 5.17.

Conclusion 1: it is probably acceptable from the flight quality and trimming points of view to place the battery above the wing in the build-up fuselage of larger models.

Conclusion 2: placing the battery above the wing offers clear benefits like ease of the model COM adjustment and weight savings due to shorter fuselage.

Please let me know if my reasoning is correct.

Matt

 







Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7818
Re: Battery position w/r to the COM
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2015, 11:20:52 PM »
Matt,

You have a lot of material there.  First, although it's merely a convention, the standard aeronautical definition of axes is X + forward, Y + out the right wing, and Z + down. We use the term CG, rather than center of mass, although the latter may be more pure.

When the battery is in front of the wings and its plane of longitudinal symmetry is in the XY plane of the model, the moment of battery w/r to the X axis of the model is zero.

When the battery is in front of the wings and its plane of longitudinal symmetry is in the XY plane of the model, the first moment of mass of the battery (its contribution to the CG) w/r to the XY plane of the model is zero.  The Z component of the first moment of mass is zero.  The first moment of mass is in a specific direction from the CG (or other reference), not a distance from an axis. The second moment of mass is the mass times the distance squared from an axis.  You may be confusing the two.

The moment of the battery w/r to the Y and Z axes of the model is equal the weight of the battery times the distance between the battery COM and the model COM.

The first moments of mass of the battery in each of the three directions is equal to the mass of the battery times the x, y, and z components of the distance from the airplane CG to the battery CG. The calculator below gives the x and z components.  Did you see it?

The ideal place for the battery COM is in the model COM but the model COM is usually inside the wing and close to the bellcrank so this location is not really feasible.


The ideal place for the mass of everything in the model is in the model COM but stuff (the wing, for example) needs to be in other places, so this location is not really feasible.  

The usual place for the battery is in front of the wings on the model center line (X axis) and this requires longer aft portion of the fuselage to balance the Y and Z moments of the battery. Longer fuselage = heavier fuselage.

For stunt planes it tends to work out the other way.  Various things set the tail length.  Reply 36 of http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,20427.msg199505.html#msg199505 list some.  The propulsion system is usually positioned to balance the airplane after the tail location, hence the fuselage length, is picked.  Minimum second  moment of mass (moment of inertia) comes from locating the battery and motor together.  If you pick motor location for aerodynamic reasons, the battery still tends to be forward of the airplane CG.

This arrangement generates, however, the additional parasite moment of the battery about the X axis of the model and this moment affects the model position in the air but the model position in the air can be adjusted using the ailerons.

"Parasite moment" is not a conventional term.  You are talking about the moment of mass of the battery in the z direction from the CG, and that has been an issue with some of us over the last few years.  If the z position of the battery isn't right, it can give you fits trimming the airplane.  If you try to compensate with aileron, it will balance at some places and bite you in others.  For example, if the battery is too high and you level the wings with aileron in level flight at five feet, the airplane will roll in at you in the inside loop of the overhead eight, when line tension is lower, allowing the aileron effect to overpower the inertial effect.  See reply 28 of http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,27559.0.html for an embarrassing vertical battery location story.  I recently needed to move the CG of the same airplane down.  I shimmed the battery and added heavier wheels, which have the added benefit of being quieter. 
 
I disagree with your conclusions.

Another interesting thing is that stuff on a stunt plane's fuselage centerline is to the left (for conventional airplanes) of the CG. I suspect that this could put the principal inertial axis askew with the airplane X axis, which may cause the best fore-aft leadout position not to be the best position aerodynamically.
 






« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 12:46:40 AM by Howard Rush »
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12829
Re: Battery position w/r to the COM
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2015, 11:53:10 PM »
Howard got here first.  What he said, unless you're not doing stunt.

On the "battery over the wing screws things up" point -- just move the leadout guides up and the motor down, for crying out loud!  Or set the battery down into the wing, or give the thing a bit of dihedral.  There's lots of ways to skin the cat.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7818
Re: Battery position w/r to the COM
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2015, 12:41:17 AM »
On the "battery over the wing screws things up" point -- just move the leadout guides up and the motor down, for crying out loud!  Or set the battery down into the wing, or give the thing a bit of dihedral.  There's lots of ways to skin the cat.

Moving the leadout guides up might work.  Moving the motor down will change the flow over the wing, the direction of flow over the tail, and landing gear length.  Dihedral will cause lateral-directional perversions unless it's accompanied by a compensating fuselage mounted on the top (or bottom, for negative dihedral) of the wing.  Namely, dihedral has a dihedral effect.  Can you think of an airplane that would benefit from having the battery on the fore-aft (X-axis) CG?  Maybe a combat plane.  Certainly not any conventional stunter.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Matt Piatkowski

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 740
Re: Battery position w/r to the COM
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2015, 04:13:20 AM »
Howard,
Thank you for your thoughts and opinion.
Standard aeronautical definition of the Cartesian coordinate system of the airplane is indeed like you described.
Let it be CG not COM.
I understand the difference between first and second moment of mass including the first and second moment of distributed mass.

Interestingly enough, my Little Great White (LGW) shows the behavior described by you when you wrote: "For example, if the battery is too high and you level the wings with aileron in level flight at five feet, the airplane will roll in at you in the inside loop of the overhead eight, when line tension is lower, allowing the aileron effect to overpower the inertial effect".

The CG of the battery in LGW is about 0.75 in. above the model CG in normal level flight. When I noticed the rolling at me in the inside loops for the first time, I thought it had to do primarily with the gyroscopic moment. Now I know that the first moment of the battery w/r to the X axis and the ailerons contribute also.

In this situation, I will not place the battery above the wing in any of the models I intent to build. In smaller and mid size models ( I am building Keith Renecle's Eeze Pro now) I will place the battery in front of the wings in the profile fuselage cut-out. In larger models with build-up fuselage, the battery will be in front of the wings or in the outside wing "pocket" as close to the fuselage as possible and in between the wing spars.

I like the "pocket" solution but it is certainly more complicated structurally and requires thick wings, so perhaps after trying I will revert to the commonly used battery location. 

Regards,
M



 




Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here