I am not directly answering your question because I don't have a Schultz ESC.

However I would say that at least some, if not most of the Schultz users would probably do well if they were using a rubber band powered plane!

In years past, at least one issue against the Castle Creations ESC is that it didn't have a brake feature when you enabled the governor. That was a big deal for F2B where the prop must be stopped (or almost stopped) before landing. Also, stopping the prop (as opposed to windmilling) lets the plane glide better. With the prop windmilling, the plane loses speed pretty fast, so even in AMA events, a brake is very useful.

However last summer, 2007, Castle Creations finally came out with their CL governor, with the possibility to enable the brake.

At least for me, the CC governor has always worked--as evidenced by my Eagletree data recorder showing a constant rpm.

From everything I have read on the forums, the Schultz F2B ESC controller has always worked great for CL applications.

I suppose the CC ESC, being a general purpose ESC, is more complicated to setup than the dedicated Schultz. I am not sure what to do about that, since the more units they can sell to the general modeling public, the lower the cost will be. So that certainly is a tradeoff.

How does the governing software on the Castle esc's compare to the software on the dedicated F2B Schulze esc?  I'm just wondering if it has some magical features that dictate the higher price.  I dont see too many guys using the Schulze esc's, but the ones that are using it are doing quite well with them.  I really cant find much information on the Schulze.

Thanks,
Jason

Sorry for the delay in responding to some of these questions but I just got out of the hospital after having my gall bladder and appendix removed as well as having a resection of the small bowel. OK TMI!!!

The Schulze ESC is still the only control line specific ESC on the market. The Schulze governor mode is simply the best in the world. It is dominant in high level R/C helicopter aerobatics where this mode originated from. It also has the brake function enabled in governor mode. By itself that is more than enough. You should realize that ESC's are designed to operate in a true RF environment where there is rf noise, dropouts etc. All ESC's are designed to operate in this environment. However the ability to respond qickly and accuratley is compromised by the provision for these events. 

The Schulze F2B ESC makes no compromises in this area. There is no code what so ever relating to true R/C type operation. All settings that could be made (say by you with a CC ESC) have already been optimised for our environment. You cannot however "DE-R/C" a CC ESC. it is still an R/C ESC even in control line mode.

This in no way means that a CC ESC (or other ESC) will not "work" and perhaps work well. There is however a big difference between being fully optimised for control line (SCHULZE) and just having brake enabled in governor mode with some settings to play with.

I will say this as long as it takes till people understand this new regime we are working in. You have to make a VERY!! concerted effort to distinguish between Need, Want and the ability to utilize the features of a particular piece of equipment. This is really no different than in the slimer world.

Just to put it into perspective. since both Paul and I have been flying electric, we have NEVER had a failure directly related to equipment. I am not so sure everyone else can say the same.

I have several ESC's including CC's and one like Igor used once. For competition flying I will stick with the company that supported control line flying with the best possible equipment available LOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG before CC realized it was late to the dance. IMHO you should too! 

They have also been on sale for quite some time!


Kim.

I have been have been very happy with CC Phx and (the little I used it) the new ICE-50.  I am not expecting to change but I try to keep an open mind.

* Kim & Igor - are there websites or such showing the specs of the ESC's you mentioned?  Also, WHICH MODELS do you guys use?  In the case of the Jeti they seem to have a LOT of choices, and I hae no idea what the MM is.

* Also, RSM is turn-key packaging the system with the Hacker ESC.  Is anyone using these?  Does anyone know anything about them?

Kim,

Thanks for the link.  I hadnt seen the Schulze page before.  I see that the F2B esc is limited to 5s lipos.  My next model will use a 6s battery.  I will have to stick to the CC esc and thats not a bad thing as I've been pleased with my CC 35.  The main reason of this thread was to try to find out some more information on other esc's that are supporting CL users needs. 

Thanks,
Jason

Kim,

Thanks for the link.  I hadnt seen the Schulze page before.  I see that the F2B esc is limited to 5s lipos.  My next model will use a 6s battery.  I will have to stick to the CC esc and thats not a bad thing as I've been pleased with my CC 35.  The main reason of this thread was to try to find out some more information on other esc's that are supporting CL users needs.  

Thanks,
Jason

Jason, IMHO the 6S Lipo setup  is a non starter. (no offense Dennis) The Turnigy 20C 6S 3000 pack weighs 585 gm. A Thunder Power 5S2P 4000 Prolite pack weighs 416 gm. That's 169 gm (six ounces) difference in just the battery pack alone. A CC35 might not give you enough head room to accomodate the larger draw with good safety margins. So I would think you would need to go to a slightly larger ESC ----- more weight. I very much doubt that you can hang an extra six plus ounces on the nose of your model and still have a workable C of G let alone a good all up weight. Selecting by price alone is not a good plan. Buy fewer Thunder Power batteries and end up with a good flying model.

Kim.

Kim,

I had actually planned on using the Thunder Power prolite v2 6s 3300 which weigh 458 grams.  I did not realize that the 5s 4000 Prolites were that light.  I was thinking they were closer to 480 grams.  I will reconsider my plan.  I have already ordered a Scorpion 3026 600 kv.

Thanks,
Jason

Jason,

The TP 6S V2 3300's are 515 gm/pack

Kim

Jason:
THe key to using a 6S set-up is to size the batteries correctly without excess capacity.  Forget the 3300's.  We are flying the Strega with 6Sx2800's and 6Sx2650; both packs are around 420g,  Using 6S cuts the mah usage - we are using around 1700 mah.  Thus look for packs like the TP 2600's - I think you will have a MUCH better chance of success.

Jason,

Sorry, you are absolutely correct. I was looking at the extreme v2's. So with that out of the way why would you use a battery that weighs 458 gms instead of one that weighs 416? Weight is important! You are gaining nothing by running 6S.

Kim.

Power corrupts, 6S power corrupts ABSOLUTELY!!!      

How about a tale of the tape comparison?

                              E-Stregugh          Jason's Geo
Span                             60"                     62"
Area                            734 sq.               730 sq.
Airfoil Thickness          about 2.75"         just over 2"  ----------- YIKES
Weight                        79 oz               60 oz (target)  --------- DOUBLE YIKES
Prop                            13x4.5                  14x7
Battery              6Sx2650 or 6Sx2800        6Sx3300

Compared to the E-Strega your new bird should be about the same size, over 1 pound (!!!) lighter , with a thinner lower drag airfoil.  That should all add up to less power required.  Your intended prop is larger.  Normally that means more power required but because you have a less power-hungry airframe, the 14" prop may not be as big a drain as might otherwise be expected.

More to the point, I am not sure you will need nor want a 14x7.  Just for reference, the Strega winds-up when flown with a 13x6.5.  It is MUCH better with a 13x4 or the new 13x4.5.  If you are going to run a 14" prop then I would suggest the 4" pitch.  However I think that is only available as a RH rotation.

All of this is a round-about way to suggest you stick with the 6Sx2600's and the 13x4.5 pusher prop.  The set-up will save weight and make it easier for you to hit your weight target...

I would think that the 6s system would produce less heat as the curent levels should be lower for the same power as a 5s.

Right, the current for 6s will be lower as 5s. But resistance of the motor with lower KV is higher. And both comes with the power of two.

If I can make extreme example I will compare 4s and 8s:

If I have motor for 4 cells with KV=800 and resistance 40mohm, and current 40A. Then loses in its resistanec is 40^2 * 0.040 = 64W.

If I use 8 cells, it will need only half the current 20A to deliver the same power and energy (answer for Larry). It will need twice the winding to get half the KV=400. The resistance will be 4x higher 160mohm (longer and thinner wire). So power loses on winding are again 20^2 * 0.160 = 64W

The weight of the battery will be the same. Iron loses are also the same (the same RPM).

The real difference is thinner cabling, but it is minimal weight difference, and what can be important, the pack with more cells will need charger which is able to charge it, and you will need lower current.

For example my battery has 6 cells by 2.3Ah and my charger can charge maximally 10A. So my pack is charged at ~18 minutes. The 3 cell pack at 4.6Ah needs over 30 minutes.

So the answer is ... it depends :-)

yes, you can, but you will need motor with more turns and ESC which will last higher voltage.

for example 4s will need axi2826/10 and 5s will need 2826/12 etc ...

you can use also 2826/10 with 5 cells, but efficiency will be lower

Ok I've been hearing that a lot of  guys talking about using 6s with lower mah than 4s packs higher, what is the reason for this ? I have have been using 4s 4000 mah.14.8V 

Larry,
Being diplomatic, those guys don't know what they are talking about.   

Alan

Alan,

I never said the 6s would be more efficient.  My only mention of higher efficiency was trying to run a larger prop at a lower rpm to increase the propellor efficiency, not battery efficiency.  I do understand that a prolite v2 6s 3300 = a prolite v2 5s 3900 = a prolite v2 4s 5000 in power capability.  Like you said its simply voltage * mah as long as the batteries have similar C ratings.  I dont know if you've looked at these batteries, but here is a breakdown of the weights claimed by Thunder Power:
prolite v2 6s 3300 = 458 grams
prolite v2 5s 3900 = 472 grams
prolite v2 4s 5000 = 480 grams

Each of these batteries cost about $150 so price is a wash.  My main reason for picking the 6s out of these three was weight.  Its true that the prolite 5s4000 is lighter than any of these packs, but the 5s4000 is $230!  Even if I wanted to spend this much for a pack I would still have to reconfigure them as they are no longer offered in a brick configuration.  In the standard configuration they are over 12" long. 

If you have a better suggestion for a battery with power capacity that is equal to the 5s4000 and doesnt weigh 20+ ounces then I'm more than open to suggestions.  So far I havent found one.

Thanks,
Jason

As has been pointed out many times, it does not really matter whether we are using 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, etc.  What matters is that we have a suitable battery capacity and the right kV motor to generate the target RPM.

It would be a lot easier to select batteries if lipos came in 100 mah graduations - but they don't.  Sometimes we are CLOSE to what we need in capacity but not quite there and the next step yields way more (and weigh more) battery than we need.  Adding cells is another way to get to where we want to be - adding power while lowering necessary battery capacity.

Battery size (dimenisions) and weight seem to be disproportionate to capacity (mah) some cells seem to be on a sweet spot.  I think it was Alan who noted that 2100mah lipos seem to be one of those places were capacity maxs out versus size and weight.  I recommend you check out the Arrowind site - they list a broad selection of 20c, 25c, 30c, & 35c packs including the dimensions and weights.  You can also see how the batteries grow with C ratings.  I used this site for my capacity/size/shape/weight studies.

http://arrowindhobby.com/

Kim has been a long time proponent of Big Power systems, Mike Palko's and Paul Walker's 5S systems certainly reinforced the fact that big power is quite effective.  When putting together the system for the E-Strega, I started looking at the 5S packs and quickly concluded that I could not quite get what I wanted because of the sizes available.  We also seemed to be a little off on kV ratings.  6S became a logical upgrade.  It is actually perplexing that the actual mah used has been somewhat lower than predicted - meaning we COULD have got there with 5S and even with reasonably sized 4S systems.  In fact one of the long term experiments will be to prove that out by replacing the 6sx2800 with 5Sx3300's and finally with 4Sx3600 - changing the motors too!

Another dirty little secret.  Battery recharges seem to be going faster.  That should not make any sense, but it seems to be coming out that way.

(arrogance alert)
Thus while I may not "know what I'm talking about" I am grateful that the E-Strega shows that I know what I am DOING.

I suppose I am the list, as Dennis and I are the only two(that i'm aware of anyway) that have been discussing using 6s.  I certainly never meant to imply that 6s would ever be a more efficient setup.  I dont recall saying such a thing.  If I did then I was wrong and apologize for any confusion that I may have caused.  Sometimes things dont come out on these boards as they are intended! 

Going back to lurk mode,
Jason

Dennis,
I did not include you on my list! 

All the reasons you list as to reasons to choose 3, 4, 5, 6....... are right. I don't think you said a 6s is more efficient than a 3s.

No I don't think I ever made THAT claim, if I did I would have been wrong.  I think we all get hung up over EFFICIENT versus EFFECTIVE versus OPTIMIZED versus AVAILABLE.

Even doubly ironic, about a year ago I was ranting about 5S as being too heavy, now I'm singing the virtues of 6S!  Awhile back I was also getting over 3S, now I found some new 3S packs that suddenly put those systems back in the game - I guess I have to admit I STILL have a lot to learn, and I hopefully I AM learning. 

Heck, several posts ago I even admitted I was willing to learn more about Schulze, Jeti, & MM controllers!     

  Even if I wanted to spend this much for a pack I would still have to reconfigure them as they are no longer offered in a brick configuration.  Thanks,

Jason
[/quote]

That's not true. Last year I called TP when I heard that they were no longer available. They are not made in bulk and kept on the shelf.
When I pushed them a little harder, they said they could make some for me, but they had to shut the line down to re-configure for those. When I told then I wanted 6 batteries, it was no problem. They were in my hands within 2 weeks.
Paul Walker