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Author Topic: Ring Master Imperial  (Read 2958 times)

Offline Steve H

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Ring Master Imperial
« on: February 05, 2014, 06:42:48 PM »
After studying the "List Your Setup", and reading as much as I can find I am still a little lost. I would like to convert my Ring Master Imperial to electric. It flew well with an Enya .35 and probably a 10 x 6 prop 40 or so years ago. I have never done any competition flying or ever plan to, I just make squiggles in the sky some may call loops and eights.
This was my biggest plane ever at 52 in span and 680 sq in wing. As it sits now, it weighs 29 oz. (no motor or tank)
Doing the calculations on it's weight I come up with what seems to be a reasonable power solution however when looking at similar sized planes in the List Your Setup they all seem to be heavier and a lot of that seems like the power plant and batteries.
So, if I may, I would like some suggestions for a power plant, motor, battery, speed controller and prop.
3 to maybe 4 min tops on flight duration. The plan includes stripping all the old silk span covering, making the necessary repairs from its last not so smooth landing and removing as much oil as possible. Maybe even dropping an oz or 2 in the process.
Any and all suggestions would be appreciated as I want to get this right as it is not one of my disposable foamies.

Offline 55chevr

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2014, 07:27:52 PM »
A good economical set up would be similar to what I used in Forerunner Gen 1;

Weight = 57 oz
Motor = Exceed Rocket 3020-860
ESC = Castle Creation Phoenix Edge Lite 50
Batteries = 2800 4S
Timer = Hubin FM9
Prop = 11 x 5.5 Pusher

Joe Daly

Offline Steve H

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2014, 06:59:17 PM »
How much beyond a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio is recommended for good flight characteristics in loops, 8's and squiggles.
Which is more important a good power to weight (watts/lb) ratio or thrust to weight?
Is there a point of limited returns for either?

Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2014, 07:41:28 PM »
If it is the usual Sterling quality wood used in their models I would be hesitant to convert that model without figuring a way to get it on a diet.
Dennis

Offline John Cralley

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2014, 09:13:54 AM »
Right, Dennis, this may be a porker but he says that it is 29 oz with no power package.

If the conversion is going to happen, the first thing do is to remove entirely the old motor mounts. The motor will be a firewall type mount and this should save some weight. You need to decide whether to front or rear mount the motor as this will determine how the nose is to be configured. Also, with the short coupled tail you may need to have the battery buried into the wing area (at least partially) to get a reasonable CG. That may require some re-engineering of the fuselage/wing area.

Good luck and let us know how it is progressing.
John Cralley
Scratch Built - Often Re-kitted!!!
AMA 52183
Central Illinois

Offline Steve H

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2014, 01:02:04 PM »
There were lots of things I did wrong building this plane. reworking the controls and not using sheet metal for the control horns and heavy metal coat hangers for the control rods and gobs of solder and wire to keep them from coming off. Removing the old silk span and dope and applying some new light covering should all save a touch more weight. Removing the oil soaked logs they call motor mounts will help it too.
I do have a motor I am considering using and this is the reason for the inquiry and questions. The motor is a Turnigy D3530-14 1100, Battery 3S 2200ma 35C, ESC Turnigy Trust 45 amp. These weigh 12.8 oz with 10x7 prop. so the total before the remod is 41.8  Ecalc gives me similar numbers for thrust/weight but not watts/lb as 55chevr's suggested setup. I realize eCalc and others are not gospel and mainly to get in the ballpark. So the question remains,
How much beyond a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio is recommended for good flight characteristics in loops, 8's and squiggles.
Which is more important a good power to weight (watts/lb) ratio or thrust to weight?
Is there a point of limited returns for either?
I don't want a dog and I don't think I'm ready to fly the combat planes again just yet.
Thanks so much for everyone's advice so far.

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2014, 03:15:47 PM »
You may not want to hear this, but the prudence of trying to convert a 40-year-old oil soaked model to electric may be questionable. Safety should always be a paramount concern and there is a good chance you won't be flying safe with this model. How do you propose to clean it well enough to get a solid epoxy joint for the new motor mounts, for example? How to be sure the control system is sound and not going to rip out of the wing?

Sorry to be a wet blanket but we see this kind of vintage stuff at our field sometimes and I cringe at what could happen, and what does happen. Depending on how you value your time, it may be cheaper to start with a modern ARF that is an easy  electric conversion, or get a Brodak or RSM kit that is designed for electric use. You would be in the air sooner and with more chance of success and definitely with a better margin of safety.

Offline Steve H

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2014, 04:09:41 PM »
Mike, yes I do want to hear this. I understand fully what you are saying and I want to bring this plane back home in one piece every time I take it out to fly and not have a law suit because I injured someone or damaged property.
My understanding to remove the oil from the balsa and ply is to use a mix/paste of denatured alcohol and corn starch let it dry and repeat as many times as necessary.
This model had a hard landing last time it was out and there are some repairs to be done. It will involve opening up the wing where its sheeted in the center so I will have a good look at the controls and more than likely replace some of the original stuff with new.
I anticipate this to be a long term project and may end up disassembling part of it more so than originally anticipated but that's ok as my time spent on this is my self induced therapy to keep my sanity in this crazy world we live in.
I need lots of therapy.  :)

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2014, 06:11:36 PM »
Generally, conversions weigh more than a purpose built new bird, but I think you should be OK.  Stripping it down and using a 'cote finish should save a little.  While its exposed recheck the glue joints and look for any opportunities to remove anything that's heavy.  As I recall the Imperial does not have any plywood doublers so use care in reoming the beams.  Heck some folks have cut the nose off completely and grafted a new one on.  Detail changes can help too - for example, if it has old style wheels you can save an ounce or more just switching to new style foamies.

I would endorse the power system that 55Chevr listed.  The Turnigy 3530 is about 1/2 the size motor he listed, the equivalent Turnigy is a 3542.  Match that to a 11x.5 pusher and a 4S pack and you will be one happy camper.

The 2200  packs will limit you to about a 4-4:30 flight time, but in your first post thats all you said you wanted...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Steve H

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2014, 06:00:20 AM »
I am enlightened yet still confused. This plane acording to the discussions is going to take something in the neighborhood of a 600 watt motor however the specs for the 3020 860 shows it's 330 watts and max volts as 14. Is this just listed incorrectly on their site or is there some math or magic that we can use to see the actual potential of a given motor or do we buy one of each and put it through the smoke test?
The quest for knowledge continues for the Ringmaster Amperial. :)

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2014, 07:33:45 AM »
Amperial - good one!

I really can't say much about motor wattage - you never know how this were determined, any motor can show a high wattage capaility - for 1 or 2 seconds!  I think it is the statistical analogy to using HP numbers for IC engines - ie, of uncertain value.

I try to start with the prop and work back  The R.I. was designed for a 35 size engine, most likely turning a 10" prop - and struggling a bit to get the job done.  Today that airplane would be powered for an 11" prop.  So that is the baseline for the electric.

I had a 3530 in a 50 oz airplane turning a 10" prop.  It lasted til the 4-leaf clover, after the first loop there was a screech and that was that.  Cutting to the chase, the 3530 is good for up to a 9" prop, the 3536 for 10", and the 3542 works great with 11".  Get one with a kv in the 900-1000 range, put it on 4S and go commit aviation!

BTW, Turnigy uses exterior dimensions, if you were to cross ref to Arrowind, AXI, Cobra, etc, their szies would be 2810, 2815 & 2820 (give or take a litlle)

The R.I.'s were famous for coming out heavy - yours actually sounds lighter than most!  If you can do the strip/refurb without getting heavier I think you will be OK.  I suggest that you try to notch out the LE about 1" deep to provide a little more room for the Lipo...
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline 55chevr

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2014, 07:59:06 AM »
I can only speak for what works. I know little relating to motor rating. From what I can gather most are inflated ratings.  I have had great success with the mentioned Exceed Rocket 3020-860. It is available from Hobby Partz for $24.  It was recommended to me by Ron Heckler. He is flying this motor in a 50" Caprice wing stunter for 2 years trouble free. It is the equivalent replacement for a good running 35 IC engine. Actually a little bit stronger than that.  I had to slow down the Forerunner/Mustang Stunter as it was clicking of 4.9 second laps.  I doubt your R I will weigh in as heavy as it was (59 oz).   I built a Sig Chipmunk wing for it in the interest of taking some tonnage off as it flies pretty good for an iron dog.
Joe Daly

Offline David_Ruff

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2014, 08:09:40 AM »
How does the Sterling Super Ringmaster perform?  And how about the Brodak S1 Ringmaster kit?

Just glad to be here

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2014, 08:49:16 AM »
Great Thread and I have my eyes on it.

Now I'm thinking of going electric with The New American.

I think I'll weigh it.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Steve H

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2014, 01:14:36 PM »
Ok, the dim bulb in the brain has illuminated just a tad more. I believe my impression of physical size of a motor and those dimensions sort of placing it into a class of motor is true. Closer inspection of a manufacturers choice of either using the inner or outer dimensionality to name/class their motors will be essential to keep my brain from hurting so much for future and other present projects.

Dennis, glad you liked the "Amperial" and ever so glad you passed along the dimensional details you have saved my Turnigy 3530 and possibly the plane from an early demise.

The Exceed Rocket 3020-860 is added to the short list of necessities.

Many thanks to all and I'm certain there will be more questions to come.

Online William DeMauro

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2014, 02:56:42 PM »
Just to put things in perspective The 3020-860 is a power 15 sized motor for those of you that are familiar with the  E-Flite line of motors. Like Joe said we have pulled some heavy planes with those motors. Remember if you recover it and you are concerned about weight just don't repaint it, or you can use an iron on covering on the wings. Make sure that any battery that you use will fit in the available space before you buy them.
AMA 98010

Offline 55chevr

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2014, 03:07:36 PM »
A significant advantage to electric power is that a plane doesn't have to be fuel proof.  I flew electric RC planes with latex house paint on them.
Joe Daly

Offline Steve H

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Re: Ring Master Imperial
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2014, 05:02:21 PM »
I have been playing with some electric baby's over in the 1/2a building section. One of the things (and there are many) I like about the electrics is the fact they don't need all the painting/fuel proofing. Most of my baby's have had no finish at all.
This plane will have some color but that's a ways off.


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