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Author Topic: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP  (Read 999 times)

Offline Wynn Robins

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Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« on: June 11, 2009, 06:44:59 PM »
For some reason I really have the bug to give electrics a go.  '
What I am planning is a kit built Vector 40 - electrified of course and then something bigger -

So what do I need - like I said in another post, I have no idea what all the jargon is let alone where to start.

So Motor,ESC, BEC?, timer, battery and charger.......suggestions please.

Also, reading up about cooling and what not of battery packs and motors - what mods would I need to do to the nose of the vector to allow correct cooling.......does the battery need more cooling than the motor? 

How do I change the mounts on the vector to accomodate an electric setup?  is a front mount better than a beam mount?

etc
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Alan Hahn

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2009, 07:26:22 PM »
I am putting a Vector through its initial flights right now. I am using a Scorpion 3020-xx motor, and so an AXI 2820-xx would work ok---pr almost any equivalent outrunner motor with similar internal guts.

The question of the "xx"  (the "kV") is for the following reasons:

I expect the Vector to take more power than my Nobler, simply because its airfoil is thicker, and I may also fly on longer lines (=more flying time so more energy is needed). I don't want to buy the battery right yet because I am not sure how much I really need. So for now I am using two 3s2100mAHr packs, hooked up in parallel, making a 3s4200mAHr equivalent energy source. I really expect this to be more than enough. As soon as I know what "enough" is, I'll try to size the battery.

Now since I am using a 3s pack, the nominal voltage the pack provides is ~10.5V under load. To get the rpm I want, I am using a 3020-12 motor--with a kV of ~1100 rpm/volt. RIght now a 12-6 prop at ~8500 rpm is feeling pretty good, but that was only one flight so far of 2 minutes.

I am guessing that a 4s2100mAHr pack is too small (four 2100 mAHr cells) since it just makes it with my smaller Nobler. If I stick with 2100 cells, I could add a 2s pack in series to make a 5s2100mAHr pack, but that would want a motor in the kV=3/5*1100 rpm/V range or ~660rpm/V. The nearest I have to that is a 3020-730 motor, which would probably work ok.

So what is important to you is you need some pack equivalent (at a minimum) to 5x2100---or ~10500. If you want a 3s, then each cell needs to be 3500mAHr (10500/3). If you want a 4s setup, then each cell should be 2600mAhr or so. Etc etc. (I am guessing Dennis A.'s 4s2500 mAHr packs are darn near perfect---too bad they don't seem to be available any more (AFAIK).

I would also check the sticky list above, since one of the electrified Adamisin's clan has already run an electrified Vector.

I will note that my stock Brodak 3s4000mAHr pack just barely fits into the Vector fuel tank area---and the balance looks pretty good.

With my 2x 3s2100 pack trial setup, my eVector weighs in at 48oz, so I would like to shed a little weight. But that is how I also began my Nobler 1&1/2 years ago. When I saw I was barely using 1/2 the total capacity, I decided a 4s2100 pack would work too (at a ~2.5oz weight savings).

It is always safer to oversize the battery, (as long as it fits), rather than undersize. I recommend going easy on the first battery purchase until you see what works, then buy exactly the pack(s) that you need.



Alan Hahn

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2009, 07:41:30 PM »
I just looked at a the "List Your Setup" Sticky post above, and it was Archie Adamison that had the Vector 40 Arf. He used the Brodak 3s4000 pack that I mentioned is a tight fit (but it does fit). So that would be a starting point. I'd recommend the Scorpion 3020-1110, ($70 with connectors and mount), and a 3s pack using cells of at least 3200mAHr capacity. This would turn a 12-6 prop at least up to the 9000 rpm range. I don't think you need to go to 9000 rpm, as I mentioned mine at 8500 is feeling pretty good.

If you wanted a 4s system, then get a cell of ~2500mAHr capacity and the Scorpion 3020-(780 or 830) would be fine.

For a speed control, I would recommend the 45A Castle Creation Phoenix controller since the 3s setup will be pulling amps in the +30-40 Amp range I think. I just bought one from Todd's Models for $80 +S&H (thanks to those who pointed me there!). For a 4s setup, the lower current needs would allow the 35A CC Phoenix to be ok (and cheaper than the 45A version).

For  a timer/throttle control you can't go wrong with the JMP-2, the Ztron, or one of Will Hubin's timers. All are in the $30 range.

Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2009, 08:28:31 PM »
so on the ESC - does it matter which on it is....I see 3 different Castle Creations 45A ESCs listed

also - the battery jargon - I dont understand....

I can get the Scorpion motors over here in NZ - but the listed names are different - there are 3020-890 - is the last number the volts?
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Online Crist Rigotti

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2009, 08:53:01 PM »
Scorpion motors part numbers are the diameter, length of the magnets followed by the Kv of the motor.  3020-1110 is a 1110 Kv motor.  BTW the 3020-1110 would work well with a 3S pack, but if you are going to a 4S pack I'd go with the 3020-890 for the rpm's you would want to run.  The 3020-1110 and a 4S pack would need to run at a too high of rpm to use a 12x6E APC prop, hence going with a 3020-890.
Crist
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Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2009, 10:36:39 PM »
so on the ESC - does it matter which on it is....I see 3 different Castle Creations 45A ESCs listed

also - the battery jargon - I dont understand....

I can get the Scorpion motors over here in NZ - but the listed names are different - there are 3020-890 - is the last number the volts?

About the Castle ESC - you need the Phoenix 35 for the 4-cell (4S battery) or Phoenix 45 for the 3-cell (per Alan's guidelines above) you do  NOT need the "HV" model of the ESC.

The Vector will fly with a 10" prop, will fly better with an 11" prop and probably better still with the 12".

Back to the battery, we have had some success with three cell batteries, but have now standardized on 4-cell.  You will need a 2500 mah pack at a minimum, but 3000mah is a little overkill.  The advantages of the smaller battery are lighter weight (up to 2.5 oz lighter) and (probably) lower costs.

One more note on batteries.  As you go looking at them you will probably see them showing a "C" rating, like 20C, 25C, etc.  Higher ratings mean the battery can "give up" energy faster - but anything higher than 20C is not needed, but higher C ratings usually mean the packs are more expensive and heavier.

Hope I have not scared you away yet!

Last thing for now: some motors can only be mounted from the front, some only from the rear, and most - including the Scorpions - can be mounted either way.  We mounted the Brodak motor in the Vector ARF from the front because it is the only way that motor is designed to  be mounted.  Its a tight fit but can be done.  Frankly, rear mount is usually easier to do, and gives you a little more room for cooling ducting.  Unfortunately, we are all still new enough to this that no one can say with complete accuracy that either front or rear mount is clearly better - each has their advantages.


and a LAST last thing.  As Alan mentioned the Brodak battery we used in our conversion was a tight fit - if laid flat.  I chose to install it on edge - this also let air get all around it.  Here's a couple pix...


 
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2009, 02:28:52 AM »
one thing I have not read anywhere is what voltage the battery needs to be - looking at 2500 4s packs they come in a range of voltages from 8 to 22.2 or something - what do I need here?
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2009, 05:50:46 AM »
Lithium Polymer batterys have a nominal voltage of 3.7V per cell and peak charge to 4.2 volts thus:

Cell count     Nominal V    Peak V
1S (1 cell)        3.7V         4.2V
2S (2 cells)       7.4V         8.4V
3S (3 cells)      11.1V       12.6V
4S (4 cells)      14.8V       16.8V
5S (4 cells)      18.5V       21.0V

and so on.  So if you are seeing packs listed with other voltages then most likely they are not Li-Po batterys
 
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Alan Hahn

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2009, 07:58:20 AM »
so on the ESC - does it matter which on it is....I see 3 different Castle Creations 45A ESCs listed

also - the battery jargon - I dont understand....

I can get the Scorpion motors over here in NZ - but the listed names are different - there are 3020-890 - is the last number the volts?

About the Scorpions, I think Crist and Dennis explained them, but just to note that they recently changed models of the motors--the earlier ones had a designation which indicated the number of winds around the pole pieces (like a 3020-16 meant 16 turns), but the newer ones adopted the kV value--actually more useful! So the 890 means that if you would put 10V onto the motor, and without a prop on it, it would spin at 890 rpm. Putting a prop on will lower that rpm, but you know you won't go higher than 890 rpm for sure --with a 10V battery. So that's why we choose the motor to suit the battery voltage.

I agree with Dennis that a 4s pack is probably the way to go, simply because each cell can be smaller and it is probably easier to fit in the plane. Also as he and I pointed out, the higher voltage option allows the current to be smaller, so you ca get away with the cheaper 35A ESC vs the 45 A one (for the Vector sized airplane which is probably flying level laps in the 300-350 watt range or so). A larger plane will require more power, so our considerations would be different.

Online Crist Rigotti

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2009, 08:09:33 AM »
What Alan meant to say is that you put 1 volt you'll get 890 rpm.  10 volts you would get 8900 rpm.
Crist
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Electric - The Future of Old Time Stunt

Alan Hahn

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Re: Righto - I really want to get into this - so HELP
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2009, 09:15:57 AM »
What Alan meant to say is that you put 1 volt you'll get 890 rpm.  10 volts you would get 8900 rpm.

yes, that is what I meant to say--I think  n~


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