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Author Topic: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer  (Read 2247 times)

Offline John Rist

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Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« on: July 29, 2020, 04:24:56 PM »
This is a continuation of my Remote On-Off for a KR Timer thread.  That thread had gotten rather long so I decided to start a new thread for the Hubin timer.

In the Remote On-Off for a KR Timer thread there is some discussion about weather or not a remote switch on a frequency other than 2.4 RC is legal for control line.   At a contest it may well not be legal.  In fact a remote stop function in stunt competition may not be legal at all.  However for sport flying I don’t see any problem.  The remote Key Fob is FCC legal. The 433 mhz operating frequency will not interfere with any RC or control line activity.  So for sport flying and trimming a new ship it will add convenience and safety.   Convenience because if trimming a ship you can abort the flight at any time to make adjustments.  Safety because if you get sick, dizzy, or the airplane becomes unflyable you can abort the flight.   Being able to abort may well save the airplane.  This remote switch and a car key fob operate the same. Nobody objects to a car key fob at the flying field so it’s hard to see why he or she would object to a remote ON/OFF key fob.  On top of all this it is plug and play.  Use it for trim flights.  Remove it for the contest flight.

I have never owned a Hubin timer so I ordered a FM-0c REM (with remote switch). I also ordered a one button remote switch from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Momentary-Transmitter-Household-Equipment/dp/B08B5W9SM9/ref=sr_1_20?dchild=1&keywords=fushionsea&qid=1595268282&sr=8-20

This model remote is a momentary switch that acts the same as the push button switch on the Hubin timer.

I installed the Hubin timer in my 576 E-ringmaster.  I set the RPMs to 9K and the flight time to 4 minutes.  The delay start time is not adjustable on this model and is preset at 15 seconds.   Using this setup I familiarized myself with a Hubin timer.   It operates much I expected.  When I plug up the battery the ESC emits several beeps letting you know that the ESC is armed.  Next I pushed the Start button.  After about one second the motor ran at a slow speed for about a second to signal that to Hubin timer has started it’s delay start sequence. Then 15 seconds later the motor came up to speed and ran for the set time.  I then experimented to see if the Start button would also act as a Stop button.   What I found was that when you press the Start button and the 15 startup delay is in progress pressing the Start button again has no effect on the timer.  It marches on, starting the motor after the 15-second delay.  However after the motor starts, pressing the Start button does turn the timer off and stops the motor.   To summarize the push button does act as a Start/Stop button but the Stop only works after the motor is running.

If you are flying alone 15 seconds does not seem to be enough time to walk to the handle, pick it up and get the safety strap in place.  If you do fly alone a remote Start/Stop switch would be a big help.

Attached is a Photo of the my Ringmaster With Hubin remote switch installed.

Next I wired up the remote switch with required connectors.  Below is the Remote Start/Stop Switch Wiring Diagram for a HUBIN TIMER.  I have flagged the 3 connectors that are soldered to the remote switch. Two of them are standard RC servo connectors, one female and one male. I salvaged them by cutting in half a servo extender lead.   The other is a two-pin connector.  I bought this one from my LHS.  It was a JST power connector by Horizon.  Any two-pin connector with a tenth inch spacing will work. I have been dealing with RC for years and have a good supply of servo connectors in my junk box.  If you don’t have them on hand you can buy ten of them on eBay for under $10.  Order Futaba style to insure the correct lead colors.  Also of note is that good soldering skill is required for this project.  Also required is shrink tubing.

The two-pin connector is soldered onto the blue and yellow wires of the remote switch. Cover joints with shrink tubing. It doesn’t matter which wire on this connector goes to which wire on the remote switch.

The female connector and the male connector create a jumper system that feeds 5 VDC power from the ESC to the remote switch.  Basically the two connectors are wired up with white to white, red to red, and black to black.  The red and black lead from the remote switch are soldered in with the red and black leads between the two connectors.  Connections are covered with shrink tubing.

The length of all of these wires should be determined by the location of the remote switch on the airplane.
To install the remote timer you plug the connector with 2 wires in place of the start/stop slide switch that came with the HUBIN timer.  You then plug the male female jumper between the 3-wire lead from the ESC and the HUBIN timer.  Be careful that the polarities of these connectors are correct.  In other words the Black wire must pass through the adapter and wind up on the HUBIN timer pin identified on the instruction sheet as black.

The one button momentary remote switch receiver did not come with a case, as did the two-button verity I used on the KR timer.   I built a box out of plywood and balsa wood to mount the remote switch.  The base was made out of 1/16” plywood with ears extending out each end to allow mounting with two wood screws.  The rest is balsa wood.  Box is lined with foam rubber and the lid is glued on.  A sequence of photos attached in the next posting (More Photos) showing the process.

Attached is a photo of my 576 Ringmaster with the remote switch installed.  By the way the remote switch with all its connectors and case weighs .46 oz.  However the Hubin switch assembly weighed .22 oz. So the remote switch assembly added a net gain over the old switch of .24 oz.   It is located near the CG and should not effect trim.

Final comments:  I did the testing on a Hubin model # FM-0c REM.  This timer has a remote switch making it easy to set up plug and play.  Hubin has several models. Some are programmable and some have the Start switch soldered directly to the PCB.  It is reasonable to assume that all of the Hubin models react the same to the push of the Start button and will stop when you hit the button again. So a remote switch should work on all models.  However I did say assume……  For the models with the Start button soldered to the PCB it is possible to remove the start button and wire the remote switch in it’s place.  This would be easy for me.  I have been working on PCBs for 40+ years.  If you have not done this before it can be a disaster in a hurry.  At a minimum it will void the warrant.  So once again, advice is worth what it cost you.

It all works well sitting on my work bench. Soon I will test this setup to see if it works in the air.  I will then give a full flight report with pictures.
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2020, 04:27:24 PM »
More photos of the mounting box for the remote switch.
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Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2020, 07:21:47 AM »
Interesting stuff here, John.
Judging from the ‘off/on’ markings, it looks like that Ringmaster may have had a KR timer with the slide switch on it at one time. Your momentary switch wouldn’t work with that, but what about the KR profile timer that requires a ‘press and hold’ to start? Does holding the button on the key fob hold the remote switch closed?
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.

Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2020, 08:12:51 AM »
Interesting stuff here, John.
Judging from the ‘off/on’ markings, it looks like that Ringmaster may have had a KR timer with the slide switch on it at one time. Your momentary switch wouldn’t work with that, but what about the KR profile timer that requires a ‘press and hold’ to start? Does holding the button on the key fob hold the remote switch closed?
Jim,
I have the KR timer version working.  Read all about it at: https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/remote-on-off-for-a-kr-timer/
The KR timer requires a latching relay style remote switch with a two button key fob. One button for ON that closes the relay and one button for OFF that opens the relay making it look like a slide switch.
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2020, 08:31:17 AM »
Well I am having a problem with the Hubin timer setup.  The whole setup is having a range problem.   Supposedly this remote switch should have a range of 164'.  I am now only getting about 30'.   This is the second attempt at a test flight.   First time out I had almost no range.  I carried the rig home and started the trouble shooting process.  Of all strange things I found that the two 1" long remote switch holding  screws were killing the RF signal.  I reassembled the setup using servo mounting tape to mount the remote switch.  A range test at home showed that it should work.  But at the flying field is was flakey at best.  SO I am back in my shop troubleshooting the problem.  Stay tuned, I will report my findings ???
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2020, 12:16:04 PM »
Interesting stuff here, John.
Judging from the ‘off/on’ markings, it looks like that Ringmaster may have had a KR timer with the slide switch on it at one time. Your momentary switch wouldn’t work with that, but what about the KR profile timer that requires a ‘press and hold’ to start? Does holding the button on the key fob hold the remote switch closed?
Second answer to your question.  I didn't read your question as careful as I should have.  In fact I didn't even know that RSM had a KR Compact Governor Flight Manager designed for use with Profile Models that has some kind of a push button start.  Not having played with one I don't know what the output of the push button module looks like.  However if it is a normal push button switch, one that is contact closed when you press the button and contact open when you release the button, the single button remote switch acts the same.  So it is likely that a remote switch will work with the KR Compact Governor Flight Manager designed for use with Profile Models.   As always don't know fore sure till you try one.  I have a question, does the normal program stick work with the KR Compact Governor Flight Manager designed for use with Profile Models.  RSM makes no mention of this.
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2020, 01:25:19 PM »
Yes it does.  I use both types of KR timers myself.
Paul Emmerson
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2020, 02:45:32 PM »
Yes it does.  I use both types of KR timers myself.
Great - that is what I was thinking. CircuitFlyer do you know if the KR Compact Governor Flight Manager push button goes directly to the connector or is there some other parts on the push button board?  If it goes direct, the remote single button key fob should work on the KR Compact Governor Flight Manager.
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2020, 03:26:33 PM »
Well I am having a problem with the Hubin timer setup.  The whole setup is having a range problem.   Supposedly this remote switch should have a range of 164'.  I am now only getting about 30'.   This is the second attempt at a test flight.   First time out I had almost no range.  I carried the rig home and started the trouble shooting process.  Of all strange things I found that the two 1" long remote switch holding  screws were killing the RF signal.  I reassembled the setup using servo mounting tape to mount the remote switch.  A range test at home showed that it should work.  But at the flying field is was flakey at best.  SO I am back in my shop troubleshooting the problem.  Stay tuned, I will report my findings ???
It looks like I have finally found the problem causing the poor range for the remote switch.  As it turns out every time my setup was just laying loose it worked.  Every time I mounted the remote switch to the fuselage it lost all of its range.  The defining moment came when I uncoiled the antenna.  Antenna sticking out loose and I had great range.  I then taped it to the fuselage and the range dropped to 20' or so.   Got to looking at what could be causing the problem and noticed that the carbon fiber push rods ran close to the fuselage on the other side.  I then taped the antenna to the wing.  I now have over 100' of range.  This looks good but every time I have gone to flight test it it didn't work.  I plan to go for my third flight test in the morning.  Is three charm?   I will report on the results.  Moral of the story is that RF is weird stuff.  If you decide to try a remote switch and are having range problems  play with the antenna location.   Photo attached of the antenna location that works (so far).
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2020, 03:43:15 PM »
Looks like just a NO momentary pushbutton switch. No other parts. Keith uses slightly different program logic in the timer for each type, pushbutton or slide switch.  I believe he can reprogram a timer if someone had one they wanted changed.

With the Hubin timer, does it latch in the off mode at the completion of a flight and require a power cycle to restart?  Or, can you stay in the center of the circle and practice take-offs and landings using your wireless remote switch?

BTW, thanks for taking the time to do the testing and research on this.

Paul
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2020, 04:50:05 PM »
Looks like just a NO momentary pushbutton switch. No other parts. Keith uses slightly different program logic in the timer for each type, pushbutton or slide switch.  I believe he can reprogram a timer if someone had one they wanted changed.

With the Hubin timer, does it latch in the off mode at the completion of a flight and require a power cycle to restart?  Or, can you stay in the center of the circle and practice take-offs and landings using your wireless remote switch?

BTW, thanks for taking the time to do the testing and research on this.

Paul
Interesting.  So the one button remote switch will work on the push button type of KR timer.  The remote switch stays closed as long as you hold the button and opens when you release the button.

The Hubin timer does latch in the off mode at time out or when you stop it by depressing the Start/Stop switch.  To reboot you must cycle power.  So you can not practice take-offs and landings using your wireless remote switch from the center of the circle..
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2020, 05:34:10 PM »
Nice.

I had the same idea and have a prototype "timer" programmed and working on a breadboard. With that, I plan on simply not using the timer feature and just starting and stopping on command. I would suggest we propose a rule change to allow the 433 Mhz as a engine / motor start stop function.
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2020, 06:36:30 PM »
Nice.

I had the same idea and have a prototype "timer" programmed and working on a breadboard. With that, I plan on simply not using the timer feature and just starting and stopping on command. I would suggest we propose a rule change to allow the 433 Mhz as a engine / motor start stop function.
Mark this may well be a good ideal.  I would suggest that you start a new thread "Lets propose a rule change to allow the 433 Mhz as a engine / motor start stop function."  I would include that it should be only for engine / motor start stop function.  I think it should be added to CONTROL LINE, GENERAL: Paragraph 2. General.   This would spark discussion on the pros and cons of the matter.  By the way it's good reading to go to the AMA site and read the proposed rule changes for control line flying.
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2020, 08:00:18 PM »
If a rule change proves troublesome, how about an Arduino Nano complete with a 2.4Ghz transceiver. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001042261846.html. There are a few open source projects out there that demonstrate how to incorporate a spread spectrum system.  http://mode-zero.uk/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=971. Lots of possibilities available if your willing to dig into it and like playing around with electronics.  Technically, Bluetooth and WIFI are also 2.4Ghz spread spectrum as well.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 08:26:10 PM by CircuitFlyer »
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2020, 01:02:09 PM »
IT WORKS

Three is charm.  On my third test flight trip to the flying field every thing worked.  On previous attempts at the flying field the range of the remote was about 30’.  As described in Reply #8 of this thread moving the antenna fixed the problem.

It was a little windy.  I put in 4 short flights on one battery pack.  When I pressed the button on the key fob the Hubin timer burped the motor to let me know that the timer was armed.  15 seconds later the motor started and I was airborne.  I flew for about a minute and I did a loop or two.  With wind blowing it would be nice to land with the wind at my back.  I was able, on all four landings, to time the motor shutdown so that landed was with the wind at my back.

This is Hubin’s low end model intended for sport flying.  The two pots on the board control run time and motor power.  They work however you don’t get a precise setting.  To set the run time I removed the prop and did several test runs, changing the run time pot a little at a time until I got the desired run time.  I then put on a prop and set the RPMs using a tack.   It all worked and the Ringmaster flew great.  So it’s a good choice for sport flying and just having fun.  However if you were planning to fly the pattern the programmable version Hubin along with an ESC that controls RPMs would be a better setup for the job.  I believe all Hubin timers use the same push button setup for Start and Stop so this remote Start/Stop switch setup should work on all models.

I fly alone a lot.  I have talked about a stake in the middle of the flying circle to loop the safety strap over.  That way if the motor starts unexpectedly the safety strap will pull the down line, nosing the airplane over.  Photos of the safety stake with strap and photos of the test flight session attached.

The current AMA rules do not cover a 433mhz Start/Stop switch.  This setup is not legal at a contest.  However these 433mhz devices are FCC legal.  They do not interfere with any RC or Control line activity.  And they are cheep. So I feel it is appropriate for sport flying.   It has been suggested that rule change proposal is in order.  I will work up what I think is some good wording for a rule change and start a thread on the matter.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 05:00:10 PM by John Rist »
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Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2020, 04:47:23 PM »
Did I understand correctly that you have a 1.5 minute delay between button push and motor start?
That’s not typical, and would make for a long time waiting for spoolup.
I set mine for 18-20 seconds. One of my timers is fixed at 15 seconds, I’m usually not quite ready for launch when it spools up.
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.

Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2020, 05:03:32 PM »
Did I understand correctly that you have a 1.5 minute delay between button push and motor start?
That’s not typical, and would make for a long time waiting for spoolup.
I set mine for 18-20 seconds. One of my timers is fixed at 15 seconds, I’m usually not quite ready for launch when it spools up.
OOPS! that is known as an old age brain fart.  It's 15 seconds not 1-1/2 minutes.  Thanks Jim I fixed my mistake.   mw~ 
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2020, 09:44:05 PM »
If a rule change proves troublesome, how about an Arduino Nano complete with a 2.4Ghz transceiver. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001042261846.html. There are a few open source projects out there that demonstrate how to incorporate a spread spectrum system.  http://mode-zero.uk/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=971. Lots of possibilities available if your willing to dig into it and like playing around with electronics.  Technically, Bluetooth and WIFI are also 2.4Ghz spread spectrum as well.

I hadn't really considered that. My rendition is from my experience using the remote relays for various projects. I built a remote stooge using one to launch my models. Since there is an extra button and my patience runs low at times waiting for the motor to start, while waiting for the motor to go holding the fob in my hand, I got to thinking, wouldn't it be the s**t to use that other button to start the motor and shut it off in case of badness on a test flight or some other thing. When I fly in my back "yard" half of my circle is over a large ditch and when the shuts off at the wrong spot it can be a bit dicey.

There's nothing which would preclude going to 2.4 Ghz other than, in my case, I would be going back to two separate transmitter devices. It really should be so locked down actually for CL. As long as there is a method to prevent interference with other modelers and the transmitter is otherwise legal, why does it matter what frequency we use. For me, I don't really care what the rules say about competition. If my equipment isn't legal, I'll a) not compete (most likely) or b) I'll change my set up (not very likely) to compete. In the end maintaining draconian archaic rules only hinders participation and causes the sport to continue on a decaying path.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2020, 02:38:43 PM »
When I fly in my back "yard" half of my circle is over a large ditch and when the shuts off at the wrong spot it can be a bit dicey.

And it's windy where you fly.  You need a TUT.  Then you can do a loop kill and land where you please.
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2020, 03:31:17 PM »
Howard,
Geez I'm not keeping up, what is TUT?

Best,   DennisT

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2020, 02:40:42 PM »
There is a separate thread for the KR timer titled:  "Remote On-Off for a KR Timer."
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2020, 07:44:13 PM »
And it's windy where you fly.  You need a TUT.  Then you can do a loop kill and land where you please.

Or I can put a kill switch on my keyfob and shut the motor off. I have the basic timer up and running but not in a small fying package.
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2020, 08:30:13 PM »
Mark this may well be a good ideal.  I would suggest that you start a new thread "Lets propose a rule change to allow the 433 Mhz as a engine / motor start stop function."  I would include that it should be only for engine / motor start stop function.  I think it should be added to CONTROL LINE, GENERAL: Paragraph 2. General.   This would spark discussion on the pros and cons of the matter.  By the way it's good reading to go to the AMA site and read the proposed rule changes for control line flying.

Honestly I would not limit the allowed functionality to just motor stop / start in a general rules section. PA wants a bit of tradition in their competition that has roots in measuring fuel load and such to get the engine to quit at a point where they can do the perfect landing in front of the judges. This implies that the airplane should sit down ready to launch and from that point no intervention. The scale guys are using proportional control which is well suited for the 2.4 Ghz arena. The free flight guys resisted the similar controls until they realized that remote DT is good thing and saves dozens of expensive planes.

What I would write into a rule proposal in the general section is a simple any transmitter and receiver combination allowed by the FCC for general consumers should be allowed provided there is no capacity to interfere intentionally others models. Paired coding does that in the 433 Mhz devices. How that device might work is more specifc to the particular event such as Precision Aerobatics, carrier or scale.  The allure of these is the simplicity of programming them. I use one for my remote stooge. It works great. From that experience I thought "wouldn't it be cool" to have the other button start the motor so I wouldn't have to wait on timer to start the motor. I could walk out willy-nilly and start the motor, let it get up to speed and then release the plane to fly ll with the push a button on my fob.  If it isn't working right, terminate the flight.

Take that another step. With a four button fob there's more possibilities. With the two other buttons, you could do something like, say Incr / Decr power. Not enough power, Incr it up. Too much, Decr it down. Several test flights just bypassed, got the power set in the first 30 seconds of one flight. Go to contest at a different altitude, one test flight to set the power instead of multiple flights. The possibilities are endless, I just don't have time to create all the options but you could envision having a test flight mode with a complex "timer"which should, at this point be called a CL motor controller, where in certain flight modes, the pilot could Incr/Decr various governor gains. By doing the set up this way, the powerplant trimming sessions would be cut way down.

So, if'n I was going to write a rules proposal, which I'm pretty much the FNG here so I not sure I should, I would write a rule which went like this. Any remote RF device for operating an electric or other powerplant device has to be allowed by the FCC and have provisions for unique pairing between transmitter and model. Control of power or other features contained within the powerplant controller shall not be under continuous proportional control unless otherwise allowed by the event, such as scale or carrier. Justification would be that any pilot flying a precision aerobatic airplane isn't going to be futzing with another control device in order to fly, at least if'n he's interested in winning.

Bottom line is, I have intent on making a control which conforms to the above and a bit more. Whether it is allowed by "the rules" or not, I want one, so I'm gonna make one cause I wanna play with it in my back yard and I can which is the best reason.

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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2020, 11:34:03 PM »
This is s  cool that I can see it happening over time but I really see serious blow back from the IC diehards.  Part of climbing through the ranks has always been learning how to get a good engine run regardless of the elevation or weather.  These gizmo's replace that.  The ability to trim from the handle would all but eliminate IC and I don't think there are the votes to do that.  The tug-a-war between tradition and innovation is never ending and usually involves the "ruling" class dying off over time.  I would probably jump at the chance to have one of these to fly on a nice set of Spectrum lines but, my "rule" has always been if it isn't legal in competition, don't practice with it.

However, if it were to become legal it should only be allowed if it is commercially available, meaning you don't have to make it yourself.  I can see a dual function setup as well.  Start and Stop only for competition and trim for practice.  If nothing else it would keep the practice circle hogs grounded.

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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2020, 08:23:52 AM »
This is s  cool that I can see it happening over time but I really see serious blow back from the IC diehards.  Part of climbing through the ranks has always been learning how to get a good engine run regardless of the elevation or weather.  These gizmo's replace that.  The ability to trim from the handle would all but eliminate IC and I don't think there are the votes to do that.  The tug-a-war between tradition and innovation is never ending and usually involves the "ruling" class dying off over time.  I would probably jump at the chance to have one of these to fly on a nice set of Spectrum lines but, my "rule" has always been if it isn't legal in competition, don't practice with it.

However, if it were to become legal it should only be allowed if it is commercially available, meaning you don't have to make it yourself.  I can see a dual function setup as well.  Start and Stop only for competition and trim for practice.  If nothing else it would keep the practice circle hogs grounded.

Ken
I don't understand this trim from the handle.  The already big advantage of electric over IC engines is consistency.  Electric power is not affected by weather or altitude.  I used to dabble in the boat racing world.  The boat people actually hooked a servo to the needle valve to lean out the motor once it came up on the pipe.  Already 2.4ghz is in the rule books for control-line. Competition rules allows or limits it use in the various events.  Scale aircraft have the most use for adjusting things in flight but they are fully committed to 2.4ghz  RC equipment.  My interest in promoting 433mhz is to primarily use it as a start stop for electrics.  It could be used as a stop function on IC engines however this would require adding a battery, servo or who knows what.  Probably not going to happen.  I guess my big question is what part of flying does the AMA rule book cover.  Is it just for completion?  For sure it covers safety for general flying. Case in point is line type and size.  The issue is what rules governs  my flying so that my AMA insurance is valid.
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2020, 09:16:43 AM »
I don't understand this trim from the handle.
If the ability to control multiple settings within the ESC and timer can be controlled by a remote then the plane can be power trimmed in flight instead of through a series of short hops.  A full flying session could be condensed into one flight.  That is really cool and I am all for it BUT it cannot be allowed for official flights in competition because it would put IC, even well tuned pipes, at a severe disadvantage.

I disagree, although only mildly, that weather and altitude do not affect electric.  I used a fixed rpm timer and I was constantly having to change the RPM settings some with changes in the air density.  Usually about 500+-.

We pretty much make our own rules so if enough people want something like this it will happen someday.

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2020, 11:06:16 AM »
If the ability to control multiple settings within the ESC and timer can be controlled by a remote then the plane can be power trimmed in flight instead of through a series of short hops.  A full flying session could be condensed into one flight.  That is really cool and I am all for it BUT it cannot be allowed for official flights in competition because it would put IC, even well tuned pipes, at a severe disadvantage.

Ken

Kin I hear what you are saying however it's not practical.  I don't know of any ESC or timer that does not require a program module and or a computer to change the settings.  So once again I feel the use for 433mhz key fob is for a start/stop in the electric world.  If you want multiple functions and or analog functions 2.4ghz is already in the role book. It's cheep and it works.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 04:43:19 PM by John Rist »
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2020, 01:14:29 PM »
John, all of this is in response to Mark Wood's earlier post.  I have no clue, nor do I want one, about the logistics of how a timer is modified to respond to 2.4mh commands, I just know it can be and if adjusting the gain and RPM's can be done I am sure someone will find a way to do it.  I am only raising the question "Do we want to go there?" before we find that we already are there. 

Rule 2.6 is pretty clear that any form of throttle control is verboten and that is exactly what this is.  I personally would like "at the handle" control of the throttle since I suck at setting it on the ground but it wouldn't be fair if I could simply buy my way to being on equal footing with the guys that have spent a lifetime learning to set up an engine.  I feel guilty enough flying electric as it is when I spend my sessions watching everybody fly and the IC guys spend it screwing with their engines.

This all sounds good until somebody gets your "clicker" code and zaps you half way up an RWO.

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2020, 04:07:27 PM »
John, all of this is in response to Mark Wood's earlier post.  I have no clue, nor do I want one, about the logistics of how a timer is modified to respond to 2.4mh commands, I just know it can be and if adjusting the gain and RPM's can be done I am sure someone will find a way to do it.  I am only raising the question "Do we want to go there?" before we find that we already are there. 

Rule 2.6 is pretty clear that any form of throttle control is verboten and that is exactly what this is.  I personally would like "at the handle" control of the throttle since I suck at setting it on the ground but it wouldn't be fair if I could simply buy my way to being on equal footing with the guys that have spent a lifetime learning to set up an engine.  I feel guilty enough flying electric as it is when I spend my sessions watching everybody fly and the IC guys spend it screwing with their engines.

This all sounds good until somebody gets your "clicker" code and zaps you half way up an RWO.

Ken
You stated: "Rule 2.6 is pretty clear that any form of throttle control is verboten and that is exactly what this is."  In what AMA document did you find this?  Section 2.0 of CONTROL LINE, GENERAL is as follows:

2. General
A Control Line model is flown on one or more steel or GSUMP, commonly
referred to as Spectra or Dyneema, lines steel wire line(s) or metal line(s) of
equivalent strength, attached to the model in a manner providing aerodynamic
control of the model’s elevation through manipulation of the control surfaces
during flight. Movement of control surfaces, and any other of the model’s
operational features, may be accomplished by mechanical means, by electrical
impulses transmitted through the line(s), or by any other control system that does
not interfere with the control of any other model or present a safety hazard to
competitors or spectators. The use of radio control to accomplish any control
functions on Control Line models is specifically prohibited except as follows. The
use of 2.4 GHz (utilizing spread spectrum, 47 CFR Part 15) radio control to
accomplish functions other than providing aerodynamic control of the model’s
elevation on Control Line models is allowed, but only to the extent and in the
manner specifically allowed by the rules of the individual event. All control
functions must be under the direct control of the pilot and only the pilot.


As I read it as long as it does not provide a safety hazard its OK.

"Movement of control surfaces, and any other of the model’s
operational features, may be accomplished by mechanical means, by electrical
impulses transmitted through the line(s), or by any other control system that does
not interfere with the control of any other model or present a safety hazard to
competitors or spectators."


I used to fly scale.  Scale rules allow use of 2.4ghz on everything except pitch control.  CONTROL LINE SCALE 5.3 Model Control states:

5.3. Model Control.
One or more control lines which use a mechanical system must be used to
manipulate the elevator or stabulator control surface to provide
aerodynamic control of the model's pitch during flight. Multiple means
may be used for controlling flight maneuvers or scale operations,
including, but not limited to, throttle, ailerons, flaps, retracts, landing gear
doors, droppable stores (bombs, torpedoes, fuel tanks, parachutes, etc.).
The use of 2.4 GHz radio control signals through the air, electronic signals
through the control lines and/or mechanical control through control lines
are allowed for other than pitch control except for restrictions outlined in
CL General Rules. For ½ A Scale only the model’s pitch can be
controlled.


I just read the Control Line Precision Aerobatics rules and I see no mention of motor control.

So The general rules wording allows any means of control, and then goes on to limit RF use to 2.4ghz.

Movement of control surfaces, and any other of the model’s
operational features, may be accomplished by mechanical means, by electrical
impulses transmitted through the line(s), or by any other control system that does
not interfere with the control of any other model or present a safety hazard to
competitors or spectators. The use of radio control to accomplish any control
functions on Control Line models is specifically prohibited except as follows. The
use of 2.4 GHz (utilizing spread spectrum, 47 CFR Part 15) radio control to
accomplish functions-------


I am still planning to write a rule change to allow 433mhz for a Start/Stop or Stop function only. It shall be for general use and not permitted for competition unless the competition rules expressly permit such use.

Ken: "This all sounds good until somebody gets your "clicker" code and zaps you half way up an RWO."
Give me a break! they could also use a shotgun.  n1   y1


« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 04:43:43 PM by John Rist »
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2020, 04:16:23 PM »
You stated: "Rule 2.6 is pretty clear that any form of throttle control is verboten and that is exactly what this is."  In what AMA document did you find this?
Quote

Precision Aerobatics
2.6.
2.4 GHz spread spectrum radio control signals may be used to control
retraction or extension of landing gear and/or a one-time irreversible
engine or motor stop function. Otherwise, all control of the model during
flight shall be through the flying lines. The retraction/extension of the
landing gear and/or motor/engine stop function shall be under the sole
control of the pilot and may not be operated by any other means that direct
pilot control. No other uses or any other means of wireless remote control
are permitted. The burden of proof of compliance with this rule is on the
pilot. If, in the opinion of the CD or designee, the system is not compliant,
Academy of Model Aeronautics
Competition Regulations | Control Line Precision Aerobatics 3
the model is disallowed from competition until the system is disabled.

Pretty clear, you can't use it in competition.

Ken
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2020, 04:54:10 PM »
You stated: "Rule 2.6 is pretty clear that any form of throttle control is verboten and that is exactly what this is."  In what AMA document did you find this?
Quote

Precision Aerobatics
2.6.
2.4 GHz spread spectrum radio control signals may be used to control
retraction or extension of landing gear and/or a one-time irreversible
engine or motor stop function. Otherwise, all control of the model during
flight shall be through the flying lines. The retraction/extension of the
landing gear and/or motor/engine stop function shall be under the sole
control of the pilot and may not be operated by any other means that direct
pilot control. No other uses or any other means of wireless remote control
are permitted. The burden of proof of compliance with this rule is on the
pilot. If, in the opinion of the CD or designee, the system is not compliant,
Academy of Model Aeronautics
Competition Regulations | Control Line Precision Aerobatics 3
the model is disallowed from competition until the system is disabled.

Pretty clear, you can't use it in competition.

Ken

What's clear is that 2.4 ghz can be used for motor shut down in stunt.  2.4 GHz spread spectrum radio control signals may be used to control retraction or extension of landing gear and/or a one-time irreversible
engine or motor stop function.
  433 mhz is not legal at this time.

Once again I am still planning to write a rule change to allow 433mhz for a Start/Stop or Stop function only. It shall be for general use and not permitted for competition unless the competition rules expressly permit such use.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2020, 01:23:53 AM »
Howard,
Geez I'm not keeping up, what is TUT?

Tim's Universal Timer, made from time to time by Tim Wescott.  The ones he made for me have a delay before start, a constant RPM takeoff mode, a pattern mode where Igor's active timer takes over, a backup constant-RPM pattern mode, a gyro-actuated loop kill, and a burst of speed at the end.  All modes are programmable for speed and duration.  FAI doesn't allow a pilot-actuated motor kill, but a timer is OK, so the TUT also has an FAI program that, instead of a loop kill, flashes a light at 5.2-second intervals so you can get the plane into position such that the burst of speed at the end lets you fly the 1.5-meter-high lap before landing in the right place.  Works a treat.  There are two of them in a pawn shop in Dallas.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2020, 06:25:56 AM »
There are two of them in a pawn shop in Dallas.
I know you are just trying to get me to waste a day going to the 30+ pawn shops in Dallas and that is just the city limits!

Ken

ps.  I just learned something which totally blows my belief that I knew everything. LL~   If I read your post right FAI does not allow a kill loop since it is "pilot actuated".  Does that mean if your engine quits while unwrapping your lines you are "toast"?

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2020, 10:56:15 AM »
I like this idea, particularly for flying by yourself. I'm thrilled with finding yet more room in the nose for more electronics. Sigh....
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2020, 05:21:56 PM »
John, all of this is in response to Mark Wood's earlier post.  I have no clue, nor do I want one, about the logistics of how a timer is modified to respond to 2.4mh commands, I just know it can be and if adjusting the gain and RPM's can be done I am sure someone will find a way to do it.  I am only raising the question "Do we want to go there?" before we find that we already are there. 

Rule 2.6 is pretty clear that any form of throttle control is verboten and that is exactly what this is.  I personally would like "at the handle" control of the throttle since I suck at setting it on the ground but it wouldn't be fair if I could simply buy my way to being on equal footing with the guys that have spent a lifetime learning to set up an engine.  I feel guilty enough flying electric as it is when I spend my sessions watching everybody fly and the IC guys spend it screwing with their engines.

This all sounds good until somebody gets your "clicker" code and zaps you half way up an RWO.

Ken

Actually, some of us are on the way there already. If the elite wish to outlaw innovation that's fine. Won't stop us whom want such features from creating them. I already have the breadboard up and running and it's a simple matter of time before it is flying on an aircraft.

Getting the Clicker code is a one in a billion chance. The receiver and transmitter are code paired. There isn't a simple way to hijack the code and certainly not worth someones effort to be an ass.
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2021, 09:51:11 AM »
Any new updates on this technology? Seems there were two threads on this from John Rist and there was some discussion about adapting 2.4Hz to comply with AMA CL rules but I didn't see any follow up. I am coming back after a bit of a layoff and like the idea of on-demand shutoff just for safety and conveyance particularly when flying alone. What advances have been made?

Best,    DennisT

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2021, 12:25:01 PM »
Any new updates on this technology? Seems there were two threads on this from John Rist and there was some discussion about adapting 2.4Hz to comply with AMA CL rules but I didn't see any follow up. I am coming back after a bit of a layoff and like the idea of on-demand shutoff just for safety and conveyance particularly when flying alone. What advances have been made?

Best,    DennisT
I think that the consensus of opinion is that rule changes are not needed.  Not useable (per rules) for most competitions.  Can't find anything that would prevent the use for sport flying.  So if flying alone go for it!   #^
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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2021, 01:00:12 PM »
I know it would take some design work but a handle switch using the lines as conductors would be cool.  I don't like the idea of a radio signal being able to shut off my motor say at 45 degrees on the upside of the RWO from behind the port-a potty.
A cutoff would be really cool, especially when there is an equipment failure, prop strike, bird strike, angry stare from a judge or a host of other things that brings about the most mentally taxing thing that a stunt flier can bare - 5 minutes of level flight!

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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2021, 02:38:18 PM »
I know it would take some design work but a handle switch using the lines as conductors would be cool.

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Re: Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2021, 09:06:51 AM »
I know it would take some design work but a handle switch using the lines as conductors would be cool.  I don't like the idea of a radio signal being able to shut off my motor say at 45 degrees on the upside of the RWO from behind the port-a potty.
A cutoff would be really cool, especially when there is an equipment failure, prop strike, bird strike, angry stare from a judge or a host of other things that brings about the most mentally taxing thing that a stunt flier can bare - 5 minutes of level flight!

Ken
A lot of work has been done in scale for control down insulated lines.  The problem is that insulated lines are larger in diameter and are heavy.  Draggy and heavy lines are not the best solution for a stunt ship.  Todays modern RF equipment is relative jam proof.  It is true any cutoff system can fail and cause a premature cutoff.  But right now RF is the best way to go.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 11:53:55 AM by John Rist »
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