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Author Topic: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.  (Read 2159 times)

Online John Rist

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Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« on: July 17, 2020, 01:38:23 PM »
As I stated in an earlier post I will be building and testing a remote ON-OFF control for the KR timer.   My Remote switch arrived today.  I ordered it from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Control-Latching-Transmitter-Receiver/dp/B082WXR37T/ref=pb_allspark_session_sims_desktop_60_6/189-4058637-5824117?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B082WXR37T&pd_rd_r=77458ad2-9f24-4f4d-a598-3eb2e4316775&pd_rd_w=pUqfR&pd_rd_wg=hezKe&pf_rd_p=6dab4af8-14d2-4d59-b0a2-dd973ff1f166&pf_rd_r=79JJE7E65C2QHMZ6B4E5&psc=1&refRID=79JJE7E65C2QHMZ6B4E5.

The Rx unit that I will mount on the aircraft weighed in a 9g with the case in place.  I removed the case and it weighs 5g. I did some initial testing.  It does have single pole double throw mechanical relay.  My concern was how does the relay react when you turn power on to the Rx module.  My testing seemed to indicate that the relay does not activate when you turn power on.  The relay is connected to three wires.  The yellow wire is the common The blue wire is normally closed and the white wire is normally open.  With no power applied this is the state of the relay.   Applying power did not change the state of the relay.  Pressing the ON button on the remote reversed the above condition.  Also a red led on the Rx turned ON.  Pressing the OFF button on the remote returned the relay back to its original condition and turned OFF the red LED.  So my initial testing tell me that this unit will work.   Next step is to install a set of connectors that will make this unit plug and play.   My gold is to be able to plug it in and have it work.  Unplug it and the airplane will be back to it's original setup.  Will keep you posted as I progress.
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Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2020, 02:02:10 PM »
I just did a range test.  It tested good at well over 100' . So range is good.   y1
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2020, 02:27:49 PM »
Does the Hubin timer have an on/off switch, pushbutton, or what?

I'm pretty sure that for stunt competition you'll still need to physically turn the thing on.  Someone would need to read the rules, and then possibly have an argument.
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2020, 06:18:42 PM »
Tim,
You are right that for stunt competition a positive power shut off will need to be included. Also, once the system is worked out it will need to comply with the General rule requiring that wireless radio signals be at 2.4Hz. The first step is getting a system that works in conjunction with the normal timer. Since the idea with this is just shut down, no other control. With that we might be able to get something approved other than the 2.4Hz radio frequency. Hope John's efforts pay off would be good for safety and just plain old bad flights so you don't have to fly out the timer when you know its time to land.

Best,   DennisT

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2020, 08:30:55 PM »
John,

This connector set may be what you need for the 4 pin Dupont connector for the switch on the KR timer.  https://www.amazon.com/Hilitchi-2-54mm-Headers-Connector-Housing/dp/B012EOO9Q0/ref=sr_1_40?crid=NPN1P5Y8F0QB&dchild=1&keywords=servo+connector+kit&qid=1595039035&sprefix=Servo+connector%2Caps%2C204&sr=8-40

To make life easier, crimpers for the pins are also available on Amazon.

Paul
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Spinning electrons in circles in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada DIY Control Line Timers - www.circuitflyer.com

Offline Martin Kuehschelm

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2020, 01:56:15 AM »
Hallo DennisT,

the key point for the rule is: „… including the use of 2.4 GHz Spread Spectrum technology…“
This allows 433MHz til 2.4Hz radio frequency.

Best,  Martin

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2020, 06:45:19 AM »
Martin,
At this point we first need to get a system that works to accomplish on demand shut-off so I'm not too concerned how it is done. For US AMA control line competition per the 2019-2020 rules under General Section 2:

 " The use of radio control to accomplish any control
functions on Control Line models is specifically prohibited except as follows. The use of 2.4 GHz (utilizing spread spectrum, 47 CFR Part 15) radio control to accomplish functions other than providing aerodynamic control of the model’s elevation on Control Line models is allowed,"

This seems to apply to the specific use of radio signal transmission.

Further in the PACL section 2.6 it states: "2.4 GHz spread spectrum radio control signals may be used to control retraction or extension of landing gear and/or a one-time irreversible engine or motor stop function" ..... "No other uses or any other means of wireless remote control
are permitted."

I brought this up a year or so ago and there is a hard push back about allowing anything other then the 2.4 Hz system, not sure why but several top flyers are really hard on this point. At one time Windy U used something that may have been IR beam that changed the throttle setting and allowed a controlled motor running landing and taxi and that seemed to pis% some people off as they thought it would force all top competitors to adapt this approach. This would make lots of expensive current technology un-usable as they don't have throttles or room in the their current ship to install same. Seems that was the underlying issue.

How that applies to a simple one way shut-off seems they think that the 2.4Hz system is such a problem that no one will employ it so it has been left alone. I don't see a problem or competitive advantage to on demand shut-off of either ECL or ICL as currently with IC power you can do a cut-off loop to kill the engine where you want with the current system, just need a proper tank plumbing.

For now I think developing a ECL on demand shut-off is worth while even if we can only use it for practice or safety reasons to end the flight.

Best,    DennisT

Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2020, 09:54:25 AM »
Well it works!

There has been a lot of postings about  -- Is it legal for contest work.  Let me say – I DON’T CARE!  It meets all of the FCC rules and regulations.  It doesn’t interfere with any RC or Control line activity.  I got involved to see if I could make it work.  My prime use will be flying at the local field not a contest.  Besides it is plug and play.  You can unplug it and restore the original setup.  If some one would like to use such a setup at a contest they should get a ruling from the CD or propose a rule change to the AMA.   Personally if I ever do decide to fly in a stunt contest I don’t see the need for a remote ON/OFF switch.  The prime intent is for sport flying.  Another point I would like to make ------ This setup works on a KR timer.   That is the only type of timer I have.   It is possible it could be made to work with other timers.  But once again I DON’T KNOW!  The KR timer has a slide switch for the ON/OFF function.  This switch is on the end of a cable that plugs into the timer.  This makes it easy set up plug and play.
 
Now lets get into the nuts and bolts of this setup.   Below is the Remote Start/Stop Switch Wiring Diagram for a KR TIMER.  I have flagged the 3 connectors that are soldered to the remote switch.  Two female and one male.   These are standard servo connectors.   I have been dealing with RC for years and have a good supply in my junk box.  If you don’t have them on hand you can buy a couple of servo lead extensions. You can get ten of them on eBay for under $10.  Order Futaba style to insure the correct lead colors.  Also of note is that good soldering skill are required for this project.  Also required is shrink tubing.

Attached is a photo of the wired remote ON/OFF switch.

One of the female connectors is soldered onto the white and yellow wires of the remote switch.  The connector is a 3 pin connector. Only use pins 1 and 3.  Pin 2 wire can be removed or cut off.  It doesn’t matter which wire on this connector goes to which wire on the remote switch.

The other female connector and the male connector create a jumper system that feeds 5 VDC power from the ESC to the remote switch.  Basically the two connectors are wired up with white to white, red to red, and black to black.  The red and black lead from the remote switch are soldered in with the red and black leads between the two connectors.  All three connections are covered with shrink tubing.

To install the remote timer you plug the connector with 2 wires in place of the start/stop slide switch that came with the KR timer.  Just make sure you plug it onto pins 1,2,3.  Pin 4 is unused.  You then plug the male female jumper between the 3 wire lead from the ESC and the KR timer.  Be careful that the polarities of these connectors are correct.  In other words the white wire must pass through the adapter and wind up on the KR timer pin marked signal.

Attached are two photos of my E-Ringmaster.  The first is the timer as originally setup.  The next is with the remote switch installed.  By the way the remote switch with all its connectors and case weighs .37 oz.   It is located near the CG and should not effect trim.

To operate the setup you plug up the flight battery.  At this point in time you should get the normal beeps letting you know that the ESC is armed.  Next you press the ON button on the key fob.  The motor will spin slowly and stop.  This lets you know the start timer in the KR is active.  At the end of the set start time the motor will start running.  I have my start delay time set at 1 minute.  For flight-testing I will set it for 10 seconds.  A shorter delay start time is appropriate because you can walk to the center of the circle and pick up the handle before you press the ON button of the key fob.  Once the motor is running it can be stopped at any time by pressing the OFF button on the key fob.  If the off button is not pressed the motor will stop at the end of the set flight time.

As I see it the best use of a remote stop switch is for flight trimming.  You can leave the timer set at 5 minutes and stop the flight whenever you have learned what adjustments are needed.

I have not flight-tested this set up yet.  Pictures and a report will follow flight-testing.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 12:08:49 PM by John Rist »
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Offline Martin Kuehschelm

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2020, 11:58:44 AM »
John,

your schematic picture looks good !

Best,  Martin

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2020, 12:27:06 PM »
John,
Great success!! What was the cost of the parts? I assume that if you set the timer per normal and don't engage the shut-off it will time out as normal correct? Looks like you dropped the shut-off in the timer pocket and move the timer back under the wing?

Looks like you added this to a Ringmaster, just curious where is you battery on that ship (I am doing one and have the battery under the outside bottom wing)?

Best,   DennisT

Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2020, 02:16:02 PM »
John,
Great success!! What was the cost of the parts? I assume that if you set the timer per normal and don't engage the shut-off it will time out as normal correct? Looks like you dropped the shut-off in the timer pocket and move the timer back under the wing?

Looks like you added this to a Ringmaster, just curious where is you battery on that ship (I am doing one and have the battery under the outside bottom wing)?

Best,   DennisT
I spent $22 on the remote switch the rest of the parts I had on hand.

Correct,  if you do not hit the OFF button it will time out.

I did not move anything I just added the remote under the wing.

For information on my Ringmaster see:   https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/e-ringmaster-as-built-by-tom's-building-service/
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2020, 06:46:12 PM »
John,
Ship looks good. With that setup what lap time, line length and rpm to you use?

Best,   DennisT

Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2020, 09:37:14 PM »
John,
Ship looks good. With that setup what lap time, line length and rpm to you use?

Best,   DennisT
Motor,   Cobra 2221/10 KV 1500
Battery,  Hyperion 3S 1600 70C
ESC,  Trunigy Plush 30 amp
Timer, KR.  Initial RPMs set to 9500
Weight ready to launch is 27 oz.
 APC 9x6 EP prop
60' lines.  Don't know lap times.   I only have 2 or 3 flights total on this ship.
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Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2020, 04:18:23 PM »
I have done a bunch more Bench testing and it seem to work every time without a glitch or a hitch.  What I have learned is the following:  When you power up the system (plug in the flight battery)  the remote switch always comes up in the OFF mode.  This is a good thing because when powering up a KR timer you need the slide switch in the OFF mode.  When you hit the ON button on the key fob the system starts up in the same manner as if you had armed it with the slide switch.  Also a good thing.  Once the start up sequence was started by hitting the ON button, the timer can be turned off at any time by hitting the OFF button on the key fob.  This is true at any time, before the motor starts running and after the motor starts running.  After the motor stops because it time out the remote switch is still in on mode.  So it is advisable to hit the OFF button on the key fob to place the remote in the OFF condition.  The KR timer is will not restart once it has been stopped until you cycle power.  So once the motor stops hitting the ON button will not restart the motor. So initial testing shows that this setup is solid as rock.  A flight test will will be necessary to see if the system is stable under the G-forces of flight.  I would be amazed if a problem shows up under flight conditions.

The only question I have is:  Are the key fob and remote unit bound together.  In other words  If you have several of these at the flying field will they interact with each other.  I would think not but I don't know.  I read the data sheet and it does not say. If any body knows about this let me know.

So it's looking good.  Looking forward to flight testing.  Right now it's way too hot in Alabama for an old man like me to be outdoors. 
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Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2020, 12:45:10 AM »
I am considering buying a Hubin FM-0c timer to see if I can set it up with a remote Start/Stop switch.   I am looking at the FM-0c because it is the cheapest one and does not require programming.  I realize it does not have RPM control but it will work with a standard cheep ESC.  Does any one know the start time delay and the run time of a FM-0c?  I am sure that if I can get it to work on the FM-0c it will work on any Hubin timer that has a push button Start/Stop switch.
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Offline Mike Morrow

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2020, 01:57:37 AM »
John,
1:45 to 6 min flight time and the delay is about 30 sec. Hope you get it worked out on the FM-0c. This would have saved my Ringmaster when turned in on me and cut the lines on takeoff Saturday. It wasn't pretty.

Mike

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Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2020, 07:32:42 AM »
John,
1:45 to 6 min flight time and the delay is about 30 sec. Hope you get it worked out on the FM-0c. This would have saved my Ringmaster when turned in on me and cut the lines on takeoff Saturday. It wasn't pretty.

Mike

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
Looking once again I see that there are two FM-0c models.  The REM model has settable time and motor power.  The 1/2A model does not have any settable functions.  I was wondering about the 1/2A model.  The 1/2A is the cheapest one.
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2020, 08:56:18 AM »
John,
I past on this thread to Will Hubin in hopes he would join in and provide information on the Hubin FM series timer that could use this system. Hopefully he can jump in and give you some useful information on the Hubin systems. This is great work and will help many fliers, thanks for your efforts.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2020, 09:25:23 AM »
Hey John:

Do you just want to push the button and have the plane go, then push it again and have the plane stop?  Or do you want the thing to normally work right, but every once in a while work differently?

If you want the former (push-on, push-off), then I can whip up a 555 timer circuit for you that'll do the job.  Or (and I know you already know this, but I'm compelled to speak) you can use a cheap Chinese RC car radio and just use the throttle channel.

There would be no timer at all in this case; just a radio-controlled throttle on-off.
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2020, 09:46:10 AM »
Tim,
I was waiting for you to jump in here. What he is working on is adding to a Hubin timer a shut-off via remote signal device that could be used in conjunction with the regular timer to shut off the motor on demand if the need arouse. He has done so with the KR timer. I guess an all in one unit would be neat, one that worked with the key fob clicker.

Best,    DennisT

Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2020, 10:03:45 AM »
Hey John:

Do you just want to push the button and have the plane go, then push it again and have the plane stop?  Or do you want the thing to normally work right, but every once in a while work differently?

If you want the former (push-on, push-off), then I can whip up a 555 timer circuit for you that'll do the job.  Or (and I know you already know this, but I'm compelled to speak) you can use a cheap Chinese RC car radio and just use the throttle channel.

There would be no timer at all in this case; just a radio-controlled throttle on-off.
Tim all good.  What I am trying to do is to add a remote Start/Stop to existing setups.   The prime function is to be able to stop a flight whenever you want.  Also it will be nice to be able to remote start the airplane after you are at the handle.  This way if you are trimming and aircraft you can abort the flight whenever saving battery and time.   Also it would be nice to be able to abort if a problem occurs.  Another goal is for the setup to be removable and revert back to a normal setup.  This way when you decide to fly in competition things are back to normal and you don't have to worry about rule violations. So far I have acheived this with the KR timer.   I am now looking to do the same for the Hubin line of timers.  :)
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Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2020, 10:09:18 AM »
John,
I past on this thread to Will Hubin in hopes he would join in and provide information on the Hubin FM series timer that could use this system. Hopefully he can jump in and give you some useful information on the Hubin systems. This is great work and will help many fliers, thanks for your efforts.

Best,   DennisT
Thanks Dennis.  The big question I would have for Will does the start push button work the same on all of his models and can I assume the push button is also a stop button?
  :)
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2020, 03:03:40 PM »
Well I just placed the order for a Hubin Timer FM-0c with remote start switch. This is the model that has two pots. One sets the flight time the other sets motor power.

I also placed an order for a remote switch to take the place of the push button start/stop switch.

https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Momentary-Transmitter-Household-Equipment/dp/B08B5W9SM9/ref=sr_1_22?dchild=1&keywords=fushionsea+remote+control+switch&qid=1595363310&sr=8-22

As I read it this model will act the same as a push button switch.

So when it all arrives a full report will follow.   #^
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2020, 07:12:42 PM »
John

Reading the product description of the first remote switch you purchased, I thought it has three programmable modes - momentary, toggle or latched.  Latched mode is the default mode.  Have you tried re-programming it?

Paul
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Online John Rist

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2020, 08:28:11 PM »
John

Reading the product description of the first remote switch you purchased, I thought it has three programmable modes - momentary, toggle or latched.  Latched mode is the default mode.  Have you tried re-programming it?

Paul
No I have not tried to re-program it.  The latched mode is what I need.  Push the ON button on the key fob and the relay turns ON and stays ON.  Hit the OFF button and it turns OFF.   Also the good news is that when you disconnect the flight battery the remote switch turns OFF.  On power up the remote switch always comes up in the OFF mode.   This is how it needs to be to replace the slide switch on a KR timer.   The remote switch I just ordered has only one button and I believe it should be monetary.
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2020, 05:34:25 AM »
John,
Is it possible to hook the unit direct to the ESC for On/Off with the RPM set in the ESC?

Best,    DennisT

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2020, 07:58:14 AM »
John,
Is it possible to hook the unit direct to the ESC for On/Off with the RPM set in the ESC?

Best,    DennisT
Dennis,
I don't know.  It would depend on the ESC.  The ones I use do not have an ON/OFF switch so for me it is not possible.  I use cheep a ESC that doesn't have RPM control. 
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2020, 08:53:35 AM »
John,
I have been using the Castle Talon and ICE ESC's. Not sure how the timer interfaces with them as far as a signal to shut down once time runs down.

Tim,
Do you know how the timer interfaces and could John's shut off send the OFF signal to the ESC?

Best,    DennisT

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2020, 09:22:11 AM »
John,
I have been using the Castle Talon and ICE ESC's. Not sure how the timer interfaces with them as far as a signal to shut down once time runs down.

Tim,
Do you know how the timer interfaces and could John's shut off send the OFF signal to the ESC?

Best,    DennisT
Dennis.
The timer is in control of the ESC.  On the timer you have either a slide switch or a push button that tells the timer to do its thing and control the ESC.  After the motor starts sliding the slide switch to OFF or pushing the start button causes the timer to tell the motor to stop.  So yes, by controlling the timer you control the motor.  However, when you remotely stop the motor the battery is still connect and you still have a live airplane.  Treat it as though a failure in the electronics could restart motor.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2020, 10:41:59 AM »
Tim,
Do you know how the timer interfaces and could John's shut off send the OFF signal to the ESC?

Yes, and yes but maybe not how you think.

The ESCs we use act like a servo in an RC system.  So to make them work, the timer has to send RC servo signals.

Most ESCs only have the one input, so there's no way to send a separate off signal to the ESC -- anything you do to the system has to be consistent with sending a servo-ish signal to the ESC.

You could use the radio that John is using as an off-only device by interrupting the signal from the timer to the ESC -- the ESC would interpret this as an RC plane losing its signal, and all or most ESCs would shut off when this happened. 

If you want to have it turn off and then on again, you may be out of luck.  Reconnecting the ESC may or may not make it fire up again -- for all but the oldest and cheapest ESCs, they want to see a valid low throttle signal first.  Some ESCs may see the resumption of a valid high-throttle signal as meaning they can go, some (or possibly all -- it's how I'd probably design things) would need to see a valid low-throttle signal first, and then high throttle.
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2020, 10:56:25 AM »
Yes, and yes but maybe not how you think.

The ESCs we use act like a servo in an RC system.  So to make them work, the timer has to send RC servo signals.

Most ESCs only have the one input, so there's no way to send a separate off signal to the ESC -- anything you do to the system has to be consistent with sending a servo-ish signal to the ESC.

You could use the radio that John is using as an off-only device by interrupting the signal from the timer to the ESC -- the ESC would interpret this as an RC plane losing its signal, and all or most ESCs would shut off when this happened. 

If you want to have it turn off and then on again, you may be out of luck.  Reconnecting the ESC may or may not make it fire up again -- for all but the oldest and cheapest ESCs, they want to see a valid low throttle signal first.  Some ESCs may see the resumption of a valid high-throttle signal as meaning they can go, some (or possibly all -- it's how I'd probably design things) would need to see a valid low-throttle signal first, and then high throttle.
What Tim said is all true and it would be easy to design a circuit that  interrupts the signal between the Timer and the ESC.  However I would not want to do this.   Adding anything between the timer and the ESC would add risk of a failure.  The mere fact that it would take extra electronic up the chance of a failure.  Controlling the ON/OFF switch to the timer is working well and seem (to me) to be the cleanest way to set up a remote stop function.
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2020, 12:27:45 PM »
OK, understand about the signal going to the ESC. John have you worked out the wire schematic for the Hubin timer connection? 

I am using the old Zitron timer. I have half a dozen of them. I use them only to provide a 20 sec delay start and time the flight. I set my RPM in the ESC. The Zitron is a simple (some would say primitive) timer that uses nixy switch to set the time duration, no program box needed (just a small fine blade to flip switches). Basically, it is plugged into the ESC through the usual port, there is no push button to start. It starts when the power is plugged in. I have since the beginning installed a positive toggle switch in the positive battery lead. This allows me to plug in the battery pack, close everything up then start the sequence when I am ready to walk to the handle by flipping the switch. This starts the delay and then the motor. At the end of the flight we flip the switch off and then remove the batter.

When I first started in electric I would do prop test runs and simply shut off the power switch once I got the rpm and amp reading. I never had any problem but read that pulling the power when it is running could send a pulse through the system and cause setting changes. Now I always just set the run for 10 sec and let the timer run out. I'm wondering with this timer if the shut off will work buy installing it in the power lead to the timer?

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 02:18:35 PM by Dennis Toth »

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2020, 10:22:29 PM »
I am using the old Zitron timer. I have half a dozen of them. I use them only to provide a 20 sec delay start and time the flight. I set my RPM in the ESC. The Zitron is a simple (some would say primitive) timer that uses nixy switch to set the time duration, no program box needed (just a small fine blade to flip switches). Basically, it is plugged into the ESC through the usual port, there is no push button to start. It starts when the power is plugged in. I have since the beginning installed a positive toggle switch in the positive battery lead. This allows me to plug in the battery pack, close everything up then start the sequence when I am ready to walk to the handle by flipping the switch. This starts the delay and then the motor. At the end of the flight we flip the switch off and then remove the batter.

When I first started in electric I would do prop test runs and simply shut off the power switch once I got the rpm and amp reading. I never had any problem but read that pulling the power when it is running could send a pulse through the system and cause setting changes. Now I always just set the run for 10 sec and let the timer run out. I'm wondering with this timer if the shut off will work buy installing it in the power lead to the timer?

Best,    DennisT

Dennis,

Fig 1 Normal Zitron Setup, represents your current setup (hopefully).

For openers I would suggest you read my article “How My KR Timer Works.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/how-my-kr-timer-works/

Of interest is the description of the signal that comes out of the timer and drives the ESC.  Regardless of the Timer brand or the ESC brand this is what the signal looks like.

The proposed setup, that follows, would allow the normal signal that comes out of the timer to pass to the ESC.  This puts the Timer in control.  When you press the OFF button on the key fob the signal to the ESC would go to a logic level of  0 or ground.  If you press the ON button on the key fob before the timer has timed out the normal signal will once again be transmitted to the ESC.  Now while the rig is in OFF mode the ESC will consider this a loss of signal.  It’s unknown how the ESC handles this loss of signal.  In most cases it should turn the motor OFF.  However it could go to some fail-safe mode such as low power.  Not likely but who knows.  The next issue is what happens after a loss of signal is detected by the ESC and the signal returns to normal.  Two possible actions are:  Return to normal operation or stay locked out till power is cycled.  I would hope for return to normal operation.  That way you could practice landings until the timer times out.

Now for my proposed solution for Zitron remote OFF setup.   See Figure 2, Remote OFF Zitron Timer.  It is based on a 74HC08 logic element.  In fact the base part number is 7408.  The HC in the part number describes the type of part.  I think the H stands for high power. And the C stands for C-Mos technology.  Doesn’t matter.  Most any part with the 7408 base number will have the same pin pattern and work the same.

The 7408 is an AND Gate.  The logic rule for AND gate is a logic 0 on any of its inputs gives a 0 on the output.  So in my Fig 2 diagram, if the remote switch is OFF, then the lead going to pin 2 of the 74HC08 will be at ground.  This means no matter what happens on pin 1, pin 3 out will be at a 0 or ground.  At this time the ESC thinks of this as a loss of signal and should stop.  When you press the ON button on the key fob the NC pin of the remote switch goes open allowing the 5K resister to pull this line to a logic 1 (5Vdc).  With pin 2 now at logic 1, pin 1 now has control of the gate.  So the output pin 3 will track pin 1 allowing the normal signal to pass through to the ESC.

The remote switch, when powered up comes up in the OFF mode.  It will be necessary to hit the key fob ON button right after you turn the power switch ON to allow the ESC to arm itself.  It is possible that it will arm itself wit no signal but not likely.

This is not a project for the faint of heart.  It requires mounting the 74HC08 on some kind of a board, know as a breadboard, and do a bunch of wiring.  I have 50 years of experience doing this kind of work so it would be easy for me.  Also I have every thing needed in my junk box.

So with that I will end this tail.  As with any project this complex the only way to see if it works it to build one and test it.   At this point I think it will work but who knows!

PS All this is for nougat If Figure 1 is not how your setup really looks.  IE Do you really have a switch it the + battery lead.  Most would call it an arming plug.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 02:34:07 AM by John Rist »
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2020, 10:02:52 AM »
Ringmaster Flight Test!
I went flying today.  The setup was my Ringmaster with a KR timer and the remote ON/OFF switch.  It WORKS!  I made several short flights on one battery.   No glitches of any kind.  For this test I set the start delay to 10 seconds.  I plugged up the battery and walked to the center of the circle.  Picked up the handle and hit the start switch.  Ten second later the motor started and the Ringmaster took to flight.  I flew several laps and did some loops and wing overs.  I then hit the OFF button on the key fob and the motor stopped and I landed normally.  On the next several flights I hit the stop button at the same place on the flight circle and the airplane landed within 6' of the same spot each time. As expected once stopped it would not restart until you recycled power.  So I would say this setup is viable.
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2020, 10:24:16 AM »
John,
Congrats on the success of the flight test!!! At least there is one know system/components that works.

As for mine with the Zitron, the schematic is correct. Thanks for taking the time to work this out. I do use a toggle switch (Home Depot) instead of the arming plug. The Zitron does not have a start button, it immediately starts once the battery power is plugged in, I wanted a simpler safer way. Also I have this in my Still Stuka where I installed the switch inside the bottom of the cowl very clean. I think I would like to use your second arrangement that you plan to use with the Hubin timer, just the OFF type key fob.  I will use the normal switch to start, let the timer delay control motor spin up but be able to shut down on demand.

Wait to see how the Hubin work out.

Best,    DennisT

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2020, 11:10:51 AM »
John,
Congrats on the success of the flight test!!! At least there is one know system/components that works.

As for mine with the Zitron, the schematic is correct. Thanks for taking the time to work this out. I do use a toggle switch (Home Depot) instead of the arming plug. The Zitron does not have a start button, it immediately starts once the battery power is plugged in, I wanted a simpler safer way. Also I have this in my Still Stuka where I installed the switch inside the bottom of the cowl very clean. I think I would like to use your second arrangement that you plan to use with the Hubin timer, just the OFF type key fob.  I will use the normal switch to start, let the timer delay control motor spin up but be able to shut down on demand.

Wait to see how the Hubin work out.

Best,    DennisT
Dennis,
How much current does your setup pull?  Also what is your max LiPo cell count?  Hopefully 4 cell max.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 12:41:56 PM by John Rist »
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2020, 03:56:18 PM »
John,
Yes, 4S-2200. Normal current around 18.5 - 20 amp. Motor is Turnigy 3542-1000. My plan for the S-1 Ringmaster I plan to run a APC 9x6 pusher at around 9700 rpm which on 60' C to C would give a lap time of 4.9 with a run time for the OTS pattern of 5 minutes.

Best,    DennisT

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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2020, 04:38:36 PM »
John,
Yes, 4S-2200. Normal current around 18.5 - 20 amp. Motor is Turnigy 3542-1000. My plan for the S-1 Ringmaster I plan to run a APC 9x6 pusher at around 9700 rpm which on 60' C to C would give a lap time of 4.9 with a run time for the OTS pattern of 5 minutes.

Best,    DennisT
Great.  I am looking at setting up a remote  relay to replace your power switch.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 07:39:04 PM by John Rist »
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2020, 07:17:46 PM »
John,
Yes, 4S-2200. Normal current around 18.5 - 20 amp. Motor is Turnigy 3542-1000. My plan for the S-1 Ringmaster I plan to run a APC 9x6 pusher at around 9700 rpm which on 60' C to C would give a lap time of 4.9 with a run time for the OTS pattern of 5 minutes.

Best,    DennisT

Dennis,
I have given your setup some thought.  A 4S battery is 14.4 Volts.   I think it could be higher at times.  The remote switch is rated at 12 V.  I have tried to find out what is the max voltage rating for the remote switches.  So far I can not find any data on the subject.  It is reasonable that the absolute allowable voltage is above 12V.  Most 12V widgets are made for cars and when the battery is charging in a car the voltage is well above 12V.  Having said all that, 14.4V is probably OK on the remote switch, but if not it would cost you a switch to find out.  So powering the remote switch off of the flight battery would be a great way to go if it doesn’t blow up from the over voltage.   SO I said to myself lets power the remote switch off of the 5V provided by the BEC of the ESC.  Then it downed on me this voltage doesn’t exist until you flip the power switch.  So the remote switch would be unpowered even though the flight battery was connected.  The cure for this is to add an external BEC that is wired directly to the battery.  This will work but it takes 3 components; Remote switch, 36 amp relay, and an external BEC.  Each part is not that expensive but time you add it all up with 3 sets of shipping and tax it gets a little expensive.  If you bought parts to do all 6 it would cut down on the shipping.   Drawing attached of my proposed solution for remote control of your Zitron timer.

Parts required:
Remote switch,
https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Control-Latching-Transmitter-Receiver/dp/B082WXR37T/ref=pb_allspark_session_sims_desktop_60_6/189-4058637-5824117?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B082WXR37T&pd_rd_r=77458ad2-9f24-4f4d-a598-3eb2e4316775&pd_rd_w=pUqfR&pd_rd_wg=hezKe&pf_rd_p=6dab4af8-14d2-4d59-b0a2-dd973ff1f166&pf_rd_r=79JJE7E65C2QHMZ6B4E5&psc=1&refRID=79JJE7E65C2QHMZ6B4E5
$10.99 + shipping.

BEC: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingtm-micro-bec-5v-1a.html?queryID=bd7b382e98184f998e79728ff7c3f6a2&objectID=47024&indexName=hbk_live_magento_en_us_products 
$2.05 + shipping.

Relay 5V in to switch 36 amps: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/omron-electronics-inc-emc-div/G6QE-1A-DC5/Z11675-ND/9603174   
$6.28 + shipping.

This is how it will (should) operate.   Plug up the battery and the BEC will power the remote switch.  The remote switch will come up in the OFF mode and will leave the relay in the off mode.  Hit the ON button on the key fob and the remote unit will turn on the relay acting just like if you had flipped the existing power switch.  Now at any time when you hit the OFF button on the key fob the relay will go to the OFF mode turning off the system.  However the BEC will be still be powered up and the remote switch will still be active.  If you hit the ON button on the key fob again the relay will apply power and the Zitron will restart with a delay and a timed motor run.  For safety reasons you should add an arming plug unless the battery is exposed and the battery lead is the arming plug.

By the way the relay 1.2" X .6" X .8" and weighs .6 oz.

All this is untested So if you decide to give it a go it should work but advice is worth what it cost you.   ::)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 02:49:50 PM by John Rist »
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Re: Remote On-Off for a KR Timer.
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2020, 02:37:54 PM »
I have started a separate thread for the Hubin timer titled  "Remote ON/OFF switch for the Hubin Timer"
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