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Author Topic: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8  (Read 2097 times)

Online Dennis Toth

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Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« on: September 09, 2008, 10:34:54 PM »
Guys,

After really giving the A123 (9.9 v) pack a go I am coming up about 15 sec short of a good clean flight and shut off, so I am looking at moving to the 14.8 V Li Ploy's. Since I did get a great charger (TP 610 C) that will correctly charge and balance the Poly's and after learning about them here I feel confortable with the switch.

Question is if I go the the 14.8V set up can I still use the AXI 2820/8 motor. AXI in their spec sheet lists this motor for 3 Li Poly's. This motor can take 70 amps, with the A123's it pulls static 52 amps on the flight prop (11.5x4.5 APCE) at 8900 rpm and is just warm at the end of a flight. My thought is that if I keep the same prop and rpm with the 14.8 V Poly all should be fine and the static current should drop to around 35 amps.
Is this on track?

Best,     Dennis
 

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2008, 07:57:12 AM »
Dennis, dang if you had a little better prop you might be able to save that 15 seconds of power lol,, LL~
(((see other thread for prop discussions)))
The other guys can help more than me, but I would be concerned about running the motor in its proper KV range with 4 cells ? what is the Kv of the motor listed as?
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2008, 08:24:33 AM »
Dennis,
Back last year I bought an AXI 2814/10 which has an even higher kV (~1640) than your 2820/8 (kV=1500). Now this is a fine motor for a 2s setup so I could use it in my Nobler (I bet) using two 2s1p2100 packs in parallel (equivalent to a 2s2p4200 pack). The issues are that I don't actually have any 2s2100 packs (or at least not two of them) and that my 35A ESC would surely be taxed, although a 45A ESC would certainly be fine.

Have you thought about reconfiguring your A123 cells into a lower voltage higher current setup. I mention there is no difference in efficiency between a 2s - 1500kV setup and a 3s-1000kV setup or a 4s-750kV setup as long as your ESC is up to the task.

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2008, 11:46:07 AM »
Mark,

I have tried the prop thing and I can drop the amps and get the extra time by using an APCE 11 x 5.5 or a cut down 12x6 APCE to 11x 4.5 (the 12x6 is very strong puller even cut down it out pulls the 11 x 5.5 and the RevUp's and the MAS) but this is not enough prop to pull the ship it needs that extra 1/2 inch of diameter to pull smooth up top.  I understand the concern about running the motor in the correct rpm range. The AXI 2820/8 has a kV of 1500. At 14.8V that would be no load over 22K, even pulling the pitch down to 3" still only needs about 13.5K rpm so this might not be practical, good point.

Alan,

The A123 is set up as a 3s2p 4600mah, with the flight prop it pulls down to 4100 which is OK for the A123 cell but seem it hits the LVC even set at 2.1V (per cell). I think it might work with a little lower kV like the AXI 2826/8 (1130kV) but that motor is 1oz heavier and would not help. Now are you suggesting going to a 2s3p setup at 6.8V and 6300mah? That puts the rpm in the range at 10K will this still have the torque to turn the 11.5 x 4.5 prop? Interesting thought.

Best,   Dennis

Alan Hahn

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2008, 02:00:24 PM »
Yes that is the suggestion. Of course I am not an expert on A123 cells, but your motor really is more in the 2s range for Stunt. If it just misses the rpm mark, you can always go to a higher pitch prop (at a lower rpm).

That seemed an easier suggestion than my first thought about converting the motor from a "Delta" termination to a "Wye". That would reduce the kV from 1500 to 880 rpm/V (it is curious that that is the kV of my 3020-16).
Don't laugh  LL~ , I was actively thinking about doing that to my AXI 2814-10. I took it apart and was peering in at the winding termination to the three external leads. However going 2s would be easier. I might try that if my new Vector ends up needing 5 2100mAHr cells. Then I would buy some 2s packs to hook up in series with my 3s packs. I could "borrow" the 2s packs and try them in parallel with the AXI in my Nobler--just a little worried about the 35A ESC though.

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 08:05:34 PM »
Hi Dennis,
If you are that close, then try this:
First approach:
leave eveything alone and clip the prop diameter down 1/4" or 1/2".
See how that goes.

Approach #2
1) Add maybe 1/2" of pitch,
2) drop RPM the same percentage as the pitch increase.
3) cut 1/4" off the prop diameter.
Go fly.

I wait with bated breath.
  Dean P.

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Offline Mike Palko

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 10:09:08 PM »
Hi Dennis,
   If your not already using it you can try the low advance motor timing in the CC ESC. This might gain you 15 seconds.

Good luck, Mike

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 11:04:39 AM »
Now that's good thinking, Mike!

Dean
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 11:07:21 AM »
hmm timing, ok so whats this all about? I see reference to it, but dont really understand it, is there a simple way to explain it?
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 11:30:00 AM »
I am not positive if this is the correct explanation, but here goes.

Think of a simple bar electromagnet (the rotor) in a uniform external magnetic field (imagine it as going vertically up and down of this computer screen). The maximum torque on the bar actually occurs when the bar is at right angles to the external field (imagine the bar electromagnet oriented in the horizontal direction).
So the torque tries to  rotate the bar into the vertical direction. Actually when the bar is vertical, there is no torque on it.

So the job of the ESC (or back in the old days-the brushes) would be to reverse the direction of the current in the bar electromagnet so that just after it reaches and swings past the vertical so that now the rotor is repelled but continues to rotate in the same direction, And so on and so on.

The question is when does the ESC switch that field. As the bar aligns with the external field the torque drops to zero, so continuing to push current through the rotor doesn't really add a lot to the total torque generated by the motor. Another wrinkle is that the "back EMF" generated in the windings of the rotor is also dropping to zero as the rotor aligns with the field, so the current is actually increasing. 

You can see that if you want to get every last piece of torque out of that motor, and don't really give a damn about how much power you are pushing into the rotor (which generates wasted heat along with power to the prop), you would want to keep the current flowing to the last millisecond, and turn it back on (in the opposite direction as soon as possible. But this takes a lot of input power from "somewhere" to provide.

On the other hand if you are more frugal and don't need every last drop of power to the prop, you might imagine turning off the current earlier (lets say 10 o BTDC), letting the rotor cost thru TDC and 10o and then turning it back on (in the opposite direction of course. This is more efficient, but less power comes out.

That is my definition of what I think is going on with timing. The first represents "hard" timing, the second represents "soft" timing. The CC Phoenix ESC claims it automatically adjusts the timing to suit the particular motor, and that the other selections of hard, default, or soft work around this point. I have used "soft" timing since I think efficiency is more important to me --and my motor is already adequately sized to the application. However I confess that I haven't noticed anything really different between the two. I made one test using two different CC Phoenix ESC's one set to default, and one to soft. The problem in that test was that although the set rpm's was suppose to be the same, the actually was slightly different, and so I couldn't make a definitive statement. This was before the Fixed RPM mode, so maybe I could try again.

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Question of volts into an AXI 2620/8
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 11:31:44 AM »
Hi Mark,
The commutation timing is almost always retarded compared to the "ideal".
With the timing optimized, both the power output and power consumption will be the greatest, and the efficiency will be close to optimal.
Retard the commutation timing and the power consumption will drop, while the motor will require just a little more voltage and pull less amps to run the same RPM at the same load.

You can do the same thing with a brushed motor by rotating the end of the can with the brush carrier a few degrees.
Google electric motor brush timing and you'll get more info than you want!

later,
Dean P.
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