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Author Topic: Question about motor selection  (Read 1658 times)

Offline Jim Howell

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Question about motor selection
« on: May 22, 2014, 09:11:28 AM »
I'm not exactly sure how to pose this question, but here it is.

Let's say you have a model of full up weight 47 oz. with one motor rated at 500 watts (configuration A).  Swapping the motor out for one rated at 600 watts weighs 49 oz (configuration B).  Assume that the goal is to have a power package configured to generate 450 watts based on the mythical 150 watts per pound.  So, for configuration A, the motor needs to run at just under 90%, while for configuration B loafs along at just over 74%.

Is it better to choose prop and battery to push configuration A to the desired output, or are there advantages to move to configuration B?

The application here is that I have a model that needs a skosh more power than I'm getting out of the installed motor/battery/prop configuration that was targeted for the mythical 80% goal.  But to do so will push the numbers up toward that 90% figure.  Swapping the motor out, adds more weight and ends up being well under the 80% goal when propped for the desired RPM/flight speed.

TIA,
Jim Howell
Huntsville, AL  AMA 545805

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Question about motor selection
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2014, 10:07:26 AM »
Mixing myths in missives means mistakes made.

If motor A and motor B have the same Kv, then the props and batteries remain the same.

The "mythical 80% goal" that I believe you are targeting is the amount of battery capacity used in a flight -- not the % use of the motor's power rating.

Double-check your power ratings.  The recommendation that I've seen for motor power is 7W/ounce continuous, 11W/ounce peak.  That works out to 110W/pound and 180W/pound, respectively.  If you've got a motor that lists separate continuous and peak power ratings, then go with that.

The motor power rating doesn't have a huge amount to do with how much power you can get out of a motor.  It has to do with how much power you can get out of a motor without melting it.  If your plane is flying right and the motor isn't too hot to touch at the end of a flight, your motor is OK.

If you're not getting enough power out of a given motor/prop/battery combination, then you need to change something to get more power, not to handle more power without burning up.  Assuming that you don't just need to increase your launch RPM, you need another cell on the battery, or a higher pitched prop, or a motor with a higher Kv.  (Note that both the higher voltage battery and the higher Kv motor just enable you to increase RPM -- you still need to do it).

If your plane is inadequate with a 500W-rated motor of a given Kv, and you replace it with a 600W rated motor of the same Kv without changing anything else, you'll make the plane heavier and move the CG forward, but you won't change much else.
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Offline Jim Howell

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Re: Question about motor selection
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2014, 06:41:08 AM »
.....
If your plane is inadequate with a 500W-rated motor of a given Kv, and you replace it with a 600W rated motor of the same Kv without changing anything else, you'll make the plane heavier and move the CG forward, but you won't change much else.
Thanks for the response, Tim.  Your last statement really clarified the crux of my confusion.  Yes, both motors I had used/considered had basically the same Kv numbers.  I felt that I wasn't achieving anything, but was hung up on the idea that I was considering a more powerful motor, so why not?  Got it, now.  I'll go back to my prop selection choices which may require a similar motor with a different Kv to keep from burning up the current motor.

Thanks,
Jim Howell
Huntsville, AL  AMA 545805

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Question about motor selection
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2014, 08:22:07 AM »
Thanks for the response, Tim.  Your last statement really clarified the crux of my confusion.  Yes, both motors I had used/considered had basically the same Kv numbers.  I felt that I wasn't achieving anything, but was hung up on the idea that I was considering a more powerful motor, so why not?  Got it, now.  I'll go back to my prop selection choices which may require a similar motor with a different Kv to keep from burning up the current motor.

You're still a bit confused.  When you start overheating a motor by changing props, then you need to consider a higher power motor.  You can get fancy and go to a higher RPM setup (either more battery or more Kv) along with a flatter prop, but if you're happy with how the setup works except for the unhappy motor, and if you can stand the extra weight, just go to the bigger motor.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline William DeMauro

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Re: Question about motor selection
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 12:59:39 PM »
Jim,
  I am not an Engineer like Tim and what he says makes perfect sense from a technical point of view which of course many not work from a practical point of view without knowing more info. I've done many setups and worked out setups for many people and prefer to work from a real point of view and not a hypothetical one. What plane? What motor? What prop? What Battery? How much flight time? I already have the weight. What speed controller and timer and the setting on them even make a difference. If any one of these items cant do the job the whole system suffers and it wont work. I Could go over each item hypothetically and tell you why or why not we could have a problem there and why but I'd end up writing a book. I can tell you motor A is most likely fine at the weight you say you are at. Motor B like Tim says will only add weight and most likely have a negative effect on most but not necessarily all cases.
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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Question about motor selection
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2014, 08:35:06 PM »
Hello again Jim
Thanks for the PM. Let me try to answer your question ...
First, some general info about the plane you suggest.
1) It takes about 0.6 to 0.7 Watt-hours (that's a unit of energy not power) per ounce of all-up weight to fly the Stunt Pattern. That encompasses the entire 6-minute flight, and assumes the timer has not started the motor until after you have picked up the handle. That 47 ouncer will probably consume just a tiny bit less than 2.0 Amp-hours of capacity from a 4S battery. The average current for the flight will be 20 Amps, and the peak currents will be maybe 1.5 times that, or 30 Amps. That's 275 Watts or so average with 425-ish peaks.
2) assuming you use a 900 RPM/Volt motor (KV=900) and you "cruise" at 75% throttle under the governor's control, that works out to 9700~9800 RPM. Period ... That's the RPM you'll be running, give or take 15%. This is dictated by the motors current vs RPM line at 75% of 14.4V. You could set up for RPM corresponding to as much as 85% of the battery, but things might get hairy in the clover on a cold day. (Batteries deliver a little less energy on cold days)
Now, you could end up running a large diameter prop with less slip and a LITTLE less pitch or you could turn a smaller diameter prop (smaller disc area means more slippage) and a little more pitch.
The bigger diameter prop will pull a little bit better uphill, and brake downhill better, its keeps the airspeed a little bit more constant.
On the other hand, large diameter may kill the corner and cause problems with level flight groove if the prop is too long and or too heavy.

Also, there are places in the schedule where the momentum of the plane tends to keep apparent ground-speed constant (think the outside edges of the overhead 8) despite having just turned into a headwind. This also argues against very large diameter.

In short, you will end up playing around a bit, but don't expect large pitch changes to accompany the diameter changes. Oh yes ... and remember the pitch number stamped on the prop is only a little bit better than a fairy tale.

I hope I helped,
  Dean P.
Dean Pappas

Offline Kim Doherty

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Re: Question about motor selection
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 01:08:09 PM »
Jim,

Let me try to add a different perspective that although is incorporated in Tim's and Dean's response is not stated outright. Electric motors have NO power. (only the ability to convert the elecrical power from a battery into a rotational force and that produces heat) Batteries on the other hand have LOTS of power. (put the leads of a 5S battery to your tongue to test this). Tim had it right when he said "It has to do with how much power you can get out of a motor without melting it." You can take that to varying degrees of usefulness in that if you only want to launch a glider (with an electric motor) to a maximum height just once at a world champs, you might be tempted to add more coal to the fire, longevity be damned. We on the other hand prefer a more sedate, conservative approach to getting and staying airborne. If possible we want to use the motor again and again. that's where the selection of the motor comes into play. You need a certain amount of copper to deal with a certain amount of power. So a smaller than standard motor will do the trick but may not do it for as long as a larger motor. So the first order of business is to approximate the weight of the finished model and then get a battery that will support 8 to 11 watts per ounce of model. Your ESC must also be up to the task of dealing with the amp draw. It does not need to be massively more than you will draw on average as there is a fair bit of tolerance built into the peak draw spec of most good ESC's.

As an example, the first motor that I used in 2006 is considerably larger than we use now. (30-12 vs 20-16 and possibly even a 15 size) It was easier to work down to a smaller motor than to have too little power handling capability when we first started. We also used 4200 mAh batteries vs the 2700 mAh batteries we use now. The moral of the story is that the battery comes from the weight of the model, the time of flight and just how much power per ounce you need for your type of flying and should be the first component spec'd. Once you have a battery finding a motor is relatively easy.

Kim.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 01:26:00 PM by Kim Doherty »


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