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Author Topic: Question about FM-8 timer and CC Thumderbird 36 amp speed controller.  (Read 1928 times)

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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I have and unusual problem.  With a Castle Creations Thunderbird 36 amp controller connected to a Rim Fire 10 and an FM-8 timer I get the following results.  With the RPM pot set to maximum the motor tachs 7000 RPM steady as a rock.  When I remove the timer and put a receiver in its place and run the throttle to maximum on my transmitter the motor tachs 10,000 RPM.  Anybody have an idea why the difference? ???

Prop is a APC 9x4.5 electric prop.
Battery is a 2200 three cell Li Poly.

I need the extra 3K, so I need help.
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline jjorgensen

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I was having the same problem on a phonex 45. I did not have the capability of programming the esc and thought the timer when set at max rpm would hold the setting I wanted. It did not. However, when I set the time to compensated throttle, I could then set the throttle percentage at about 80 percent and get the rpm I wanted. This was on the FM 9 timer with the programmer.
Jim Jorgensen

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Thanks Jim, the problem I have is the Thunderbird ESC does not appear to have the kind of flexability in programming I need.  Or for that matter the FM-8 does not seem to have programability either.
Andy
 HB~>
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Will Hubin

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Andy,
   You probably have the FM-6 or FM-7 (rather than the FM-8)? They are designed for the High RPM and the Set RPM modes of the Phoenix, which I don't believe is available for the lower-cost Thunderbird ESC. The High RPM mode gets all the RPMs one normally needs with relatively low throttle settings, so it will not give you the maximum power/RPM available using the normal R/C ESC modes on the Thunderbird series.
    You could use the FM-1a (compensated throttle up to 100%) at $19 including shipping or, of course, the FM-9 system, which includes a compensated throttle mode in addition to the constant RPM modes.

Regards, Will

 

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Will
The artwork says "FM-8a" I got it from Eric Rule at RSM.  Eric is sending me a second timer and a different ESC to try and isolate where the issue is.  Thanks you for the response.
Andy Borgogna
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Well I got the replacement hardware today.  The new ESC made everything work.  The problem appears to be some kind of inter action problem between the timer and the CC Thunderbird ESC.  An R/C reciever with the Thunderbird ESC worked and the FM 8a timer with the Hacker ESC worked.  So it looks like in will be replacing the ESC, unless someone can come up with a timer that works with the Thunderbird ESC.
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Wynn Robins

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curious as to why you want to use the thunderbird timer when the Phoenix has the control line mode in it already.......any reason other than a couple of bucks?
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Mike Anderson

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Well I got the replacement hardware today.  The new ESC made everything work.  The problem appears to be some kind of inter action problem between the timer and the CC Thunderbird ESC.  An R/C reciever with the Thunderbird ESC worked and the FM 8a timer with the Hacker ESC worked.  So it looks like in will be replacing the ESC, unless someone can come up with a timer that works with the Thunderbird ESC.
Andy

I believe that Will answered your questions in his post -

If you have to use the T-bird ESC, you need a different timer.  The T-bird doesn't have governor mode, and your fm-8 is strictly for a governor mode ESC.

If you have to use the FM-8, then you need an ESC with governor mode.  I think the FM-8 has a special program for the Hacker ESC that RSM packages together with it.

The 'universal' timers that Will has developed - FM-1's and the FM-9, for sure - will work with the TB ESC in 'Compensated Throttle' mode.

Out of curiosity, what is the rest of your setup?  I'm curious to know how the Rimfire 10 works (when you get it working) and what you are flying with it.  Best of luck with it ...


Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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To answer the questions as they came.  The reason for using the Thunderbird ESC is I already had it.  It was intended for R/C use but I never got around to using it.  Knowing nothing about C/L electric and the unit is small it seemed like a good choice at the time.

The setup I am using is for a 350sq/in .15 size IC plane designed by Larry Renger.  At the last minute we decided to go electric.  I had the ESC, I ordered the FM-8 from Eric Rule and purchased a RimFire 10 based on a recommendation from a friend who has experience in C/L electric.  The manager at Hobby People who flies R/C electric recommended a 9 x 4.5 APC prop.  Is this the best combination, I don't know.  The main purpose of this exercise was to gain experience in C/L electric.  I know that when the motor runs at 10K it has plenty of pull for the plane. 

Why didn't I get a Phoenix ESC in the first place?  I didn't know one ESC from the next, the purchase was based on price and the fact the ESC had the necessary requirements for the R/C setup I originally had in mind. 

I think I will go the way of the Phoenix ESC in the 35amp range and hopefully I will be able to get this plane in the air.

Andy Borgogna
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Mike Anderson

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Somewhere on this board are pix of the .15 size e-planes that we used to get my several newbies solo'ed.  They used the "Suppo" equivalent motor of your Rimfire .10, 3  cell batteries, 30 amp ESC's and Will Hubin timers.  They worked quite well and if you turned the RPM up, flew pretty well.  We were able to get over 11000 RPM with an 8-4 prop but seldom turned them all the way up.  These were about 250 sq. in. and flew on 52' lines.

Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Question about FM-8 timer and CC Thumderbird 36 amp speed controller.
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 09:41:40 AM »
Mike
Could you be more specific as to what type and model of 30 ESC you used?  According to the experts if it has a governor it will work.  For what it's worth I don't have a clue what the governor governs.  RPM, current, voltage, only the experts seem to know.  Or for that matter why it is needed for a timer to work.  

I have scoped many a receiver and looked at the pulse chain coming from the transmitter, in my ignorance I thought that the timer simply supplied the throttle pulse with a pot to adjust the pulse width in place of the left stick on the transmitter.  In addition a timer controls the length of the flight.  But clearly I don't know the full story and I don't have a clue where to get the basic information I need.  I was hoping this was the place, oh well.
Andy ???
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline John Cralley

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Re: Question about FM-8 timer and CC Thumderbird 36 amp speed controller.
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 11:10:04 AM »
Andy,

The governor controls the RPM to maintain a constant RPM. ESCs without governor function need a timer that will gradually ramp up the pulse width to compensate for decreasing battery voltage during the flight. The governor mode in an ESC makes the ramp up unnecessary. Will Hubin makes timers for both types of ESCs. The Castle Creations Phoenix ESCs can be programmed (using a special USB cable and a PC) especially for control line flying but, if you use a timer with a ramp up built in, you do not need an expensive programmable ESC with governor mode (that is not to say that a Phoenix ESC and others that are programmable will not give some definite advantages).

Too bad you did not check out the "List Your Setup" thread at the top of this forum. If you do you will find that the Brodak Electric Super Clown is close to the plane you are electrifying (355 sq inches vs 350 for yours). Brodak has a package deal for the powering of the E Super Clown and a couple of alternative setups are listed in the thread. This one for instance:

Brodak Electric Super Clown
Wing area=355 sq in
Flying Weight=28 oz
Scorpion 3020-12 (kV=1088rpm/volt--stock) (5.4oz)
FMA 3s2100 18C Lipo (5.5oz)
Castle Creation Phoenix 35A ESC
JMP-2 timer
APC TE 10-7 stock
58 foot 0.012" eyelet-to eyelet lines
Flight time 300 s (does not include 20 wait after arm the timer)
8500 rpm
lap speed 4.8s
~1560-1600 mAHr put back in according to charger

So don't give up on electric control line. You will get a setup that works (some learning curve may be involved) and you are going to love the steady predictable power and the start at the push of a button!!!
John Cralley
Scratch Built - Often Re-kitted!!!
AMA 52183
Central Illinois

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Question about FM-8 timer and CC Thumderbird 36 amp speed controller.
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 11:44:14 AM »
Mike
Could you be more specific as to what type and model of 30 ESC you used?  According to the experts if it has a governor it will work.  For what it's worth I don't have a clue what the governor governs.  RPM, current, voltage, only the experts seem to know.  Or for that matter why it is needed for a timer to work.  

I have scoped many a receiver and looked at the pulse chain coming from the transmitter, in my ignorance I thought that the timer simply supplied the throttle pulse with a pot to adjust the pulse width in place of the left stick on the transmitter.  In addition a timer controls the length of the flight.  But clearly I don't know the full story and I don't have a clue where to get the basic information I need.  I was hoping this was the place, oh well.
Andy ???

For sport type models any old cheapo ESC will work - the JMP, Z-tron, and Hubin timers all have the ability to increase the throttle pulse width as the flight progresses to make up for the sagging battery voltage.  I have flown many MANY complete stunt flights with the Twister that I've detailed elsewhere here with a Will Hubin fm-1a flight manager and a Hobbyking Super Simple 40 or 50 amp ESC.  I had the timer set such that RPM and lap times were slightly FASTER at end of the flight (four leaf clover) then at the beginning of the flight.  This assumes that you have enough battery capacity and size that you aren't maxed out at the beginning or the batteries are not nearly dead at the end.  I have switched to a Phoenix 45 amp because the Governor mode does provide a little extra kick in the vertical parts of some maneuvers - most noticeable in the square loops, where there is some noticeable motor sag, especially in the 2nd and 3rd loop.  Without the Governor mode, I had to keep some maneuvers rather large and keep my speed up to make it look decent.  Interestingly, my scores have not improved any ... go figure.  But for just sport flying or practice flying, your T-bird will give you many flights, if you choose to use it.  As I said above, the fm-8 timer is a special one (in fact, when you first mentioned it, I went back through all my old literature from Will, trying to figure out what it was you had) for that Hacker ESC and apparently programmed for just that ESC.

You are correct - the timer merely mimics the receiver and the computer in the timer mimics your brain/left thumb connection- deciding how much throttle to use and when to use it.  The governor mode ESC monitors the timers 'desired' RPM and also monitors the actual RPM of the motor - such that if the motor RPM starts to sag it can add a little extra kick to keep the RPM at the 'desired' level.  Frankly that is all the basic info you really need other than how to actually communicate your desires to your actual ESC and timer.  With the Hubin timers you either communicate by setting a pot or with the new program box. 

I don't know what other basics you are having trouble with, but it seems that you are well on your way to getting something flying - after the first flight I guarantee that things will make more sense and become clearer as you progress.  I think you mentioned just using a receiver instead of a timer - by all means go ahead and do that, if it gets you off the ground quicker.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Will Hubin

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Re: Question about FM-8 timer and CC Thumderbird 36 amp speed controller.
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2010, 09:31:01 AM »
Yes, the (FM-8) timers sent to Eric Rule at RSM are specifically for the Hacker ESC that is programmed for the governed mode; to get the RPMs he wanted, only relatively low throttle setting are required, whereas a standard R/C type ESC needs a timer that covers the full throttle range, and one that compensates for battery voltage decline is also desirable.

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Question about FM-8 timer and CC Thumderbird 36 amp speed controller.
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2010, 02:21:29 PM »
Thank you Will, I completely understand your explaination and it makes complete sense.  My lack of knowledge in the controline arena of electrict flight is the main source of my problems.  But I am trying to learn. 

Thanks for your help.
Andy Borgogna
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Question about FM-8 timer and CC Thumderbird 36 amp speed controller.
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2010, 08:36:15 PM »
For our first attempts at flight, since the timer wasn't working right, we used a micro R/C reciever, and me on the outside of the circle with a transmitter.  What a fortunate circumstance!  The model would have been destroyed if I had not been able to shut it down.  Between a balance problem and a warp problem, it was doomed from the start.  But it was no problem to shut the motor off as soon as trouble was noted.  It never even completed a full lap, and landed without a scratch.  What a great way to trim a new model!

I think this may become our SOP for electric C/L models!  Why risk a full run, when you can have full control?  The RX weighs about the same as the timer, so there isn't even a balance problem.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!


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