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Author Topic: PUTTING A SYSTEM TOGHETHER  (Read 971 times)

Offline Vincent Corwell

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PUTTING A SYSTEM TOGHETHER
« on: August 23, 2007, 04:37:41 AM »
Hi all
Axi quote 920 rpm/volt for the popular 2826/10 brushless motor,
so on 4 cell lipo that will be 13,000 rpm and on 5 cell lip = 17,000
how to relate that to prop size and all up weight ?

1.     For a typical 550 sq in up to 50 oz power train:
        2826/10 motor 4S lipo 3700-4200amp 11x6 prop  ( standard or elec type? )
        Castle 45 amp controller, latest Zigras timer

2.     For a typical 680 sq in up to 68 oz, power train:
        2826/10 motor 5S lipo 4200amp 12 x 6 prop ( standard or elec type? )
        Castle 45 amp controller, latest Zigras timer

would these be reasonable setups to start with ?

It seems there is no black & white option which is understandable,
given the whole concept is still growing up with us

Back to the idea of =

for a 45 IC motor use this: xxxxx

for a 60 IC motor use this :  xxxx

Any input appreciated

Vincent

Kim Doherty

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Re: PUTTING A SYSTEM TOGHETHER
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 01:12:31 PM »
Vincent,

I read your question several times and went away and came back to it and went away .......... and now I will try to fashion a reasonable answer.

I wish that selecting components for an electric power system was as easy as saying use XXX for a .60 size replacement or YYY for a .40. In the electric power department you could probably use either of those setups for each plane. Therein  lies the problem.

Without being flip, the simple answer is to avail yourself of the postings by Mike, Dean, myself and others and "do the math". Yet even if you do do the math, you may not get it right. You will certainly be close but perhaps not where you wanted to be. We have almost eighty years of development and usage experience with IC engines. This has over time led to someone being able to ask your very question and yet even then you may not get it really right unless you pay close attention to the details. The devil is in the details.

Before you set pencil to paper, you need to determine the level of performance you want to achieve, the wing loading of the plane, the weight of the power train complete, the physical distribution of the components within the airframe, the minimum weight at which you personally can build a model of a specific size, the size and type of propeller, wether high or low pitch, line length, battery size and weight, motor mounting requirements, cooling requirements, access requirements, battery retention requirements, budget requirements, your particular level of flying experience, etc. All of these variabes are inter-related to one another and result in an equation with many unknowns. Take just the topics I have listed and fill in the blanks then go and find out the details of each parameter i.e. just how much does a Plettenburg Orbit 30-12 weigh? how much does the collett weigh? How much do the mounting bolts weigh? How much does the prop and spinner weigh? What is the actual physical size of the battery and how would you propose to hold it in the airframe?

As you begin to refine one selection you will find that other selections must of necessity change. So change them and see if there are any downstream impacts (or IMPACTs?   :)   ). Sorry, couldn't resist. They will change. Your budget will also dictate what you can and can not do. It is not a simple or qick process. In my case, I wanted a plane that would perform well enough to win a W/C's and nothing less. Money was not an object. Time was not an object. I had professional engineers guiding and evaluating every choice we made. I do not expect you to go to this extreme but the point is that the reason I can now say to you that to compete at the world level you need a particular setup (mine for example) was the result of all of the above and "proving" the setup in competition. Subsequent efforts by others have further proved the validity of the choices we made. So now if I tell you that you should use the setup I am using to compete at the highest level you will (I hope ) believe me.

All of that effort has resulted in "one setup" being proven and verified. In the IC world we have multiple setups for every size and type of engine that exists. They exist because someone took the time and put forth the effort to establish each setup as being valid. I do not fly .40 size planes and so am not likely to go through the same effort to establish a standard for that size. That is what you must do. You or someone else must risk time and money to "prove" a complete package to the extent that someone such as yourself could say without hesitation is the "right" setup for such and such a size model. The issue as I see it right now is that if I suggest to you that you should purchase components X, Y and Z to achieve a particular goal, I better have it right or you may be significantly out of pocket and regretting my Irish ancestry. So to make a long reply short, "do the math" and when you need advice on which of several directions to go with a particular issue I and others can help you make an informed choice. You will not find the answer unless you put in the legwork as well.

Kim. 

Alan Hahn

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Re: PUTTING A SYSTEM TOGHETHER
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 06:17:04 PM »
I'll try a few answers, but it is a little tricky as Kim says.

Here is what I did. I looked at a plane I would like to electrify. First I more or less know how this plane flies with a standard engine----e.g. a prop and an rpm. The tricky part to me is to figure out what the in-flight rpm is.
Once I guess at this, the next step is to try to figure out the kV of the motor. The kV is a function on what your cell count is going to be. For me I have more or less standardized on the 3 cell lipo (~10.5V average voltage). So if I plan on a 10-11k rpm flight rpm, that means I need a kV in the 1100-1200 range, a little higher just to give me some head room.
Now I know for me, an 11-5 prop will be just right for this plane (prior experience) in this rpm range. Now what motor to choose. For some reason I fell into a web site for a motor distributor (http://www.innov8tivedesigns.com/) which shows, for various of his motors, static current loads for a series of props, one of which is exactly the  prop I plan to use (APC thin electric 11x5.5). I include a graphic of the table. Note that on 3 cells, this particular motor Scorpion 3020-12 will pull 32A @9275rpm. I expect this current will drop ~10A or so at flying speeds. So I think I will up the rpm to give me ~10k flying rpm, this I will adjust for flying. I include below, a graphic of the chart this site gives with the motors they sell.

Now comes another tricky part. What battery to choose? If I end up flying at an average current draw of 28 A, then for 6 minutes (0.1 hr), I would pull ~2800maHr out of this battery. So I need a battery which has ~3500maHr capacity to make sure I won't overdraw. There is still another detail. This plane I am talking about is already made, so it is necessary for the battery to actuall fit in/on the plane. My solution is to go for two 2100mAhr 3cell packs, hooked together in parallel. That way I and fit in the batteries, one at a time. Another benefit is that I already have 3 of these type packs which I use on other planes--so if I make a mistake it  isn't a big deal--I can use these packs elsewhere. I can get them for ~$48 from FMA. Total weight of the two cells is ~10.5oz.

So recapping, look at what makes you happy on a gas powered plane, choose a prop, get the rpm in the right ballpark (kV of the motor), try to get a reading on the current draw to understand what size motor you want to use (weight of motor enters here a bit), figure out the battery possibilities --this to me is the expensive/scary part.

I hope to try out my system this weekend or early next week, so tune in for how it all works out!

Alan Hahn

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Re: PUTTING A SYSTEM TOGHETHER
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2007, 06:18:16 PM »
here is the graphic, for some reason it wouldn't post on my long reply.

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: PUTTING A SYSTEM TOGHETHER
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2007, 10:01:57 PM »
Hi Vincent,
   It looks like Kim and Alan gave you a great start on picking a power system. I did a short write up years ago on how to pick a power system. After reading this post I have decided to revise (update) the write up and make it a sticky at the top of this forum. I am guessing it will be posted in the next two weeks.

   I will make a few quick suggestions to maybe help you or point you in the right direction in the mean time. THIS IS BY NO MEANS SET IN STONE!!

1) 525sq"-600sq" and up to 52-54oz.

Motor: AXI 2826/10 or Plettenberg Orbit 15-16 or 15-18
Battery: 4S 3700-4200mah
ESC: 45amp
Timer: your choice

2) 600-675sq" and up to 64-66oz

Motor: Plettenberg Orbit 25-12 or 25-14
Battery: 5S 3700-4200mah
ESC 45amp
Timer: your choice

3) 675-750sq" and up to 74-76oz

Motor: AXI 4120/14 or Plettenberg Orbit 30-12 or 30-14
Battery: 5S 3700-4200mah (I think a 6S battery may find a use in this category on a higher wind motor) 
ESC: 45amp
Timer: your choice   

   The reason I say this is NOT SET IN STONE is because I have seen the AXI 2826/10 and 4S setup fly airplanes from 46-59oz and 510-625sq". The low end of the scale may have been a little to much (meaning more power system weight than needed) and at the other end of the scale it was not quite enough.

   A second observation was an Orbit 20-16 and 5S setup flying a 71.5oz ARF Score. This setup was doing much more than I anticipated, but again there are a lot of variables to take into account.

   If your airplane is in the ballpark of one of the above power systems you should be close. There is a lot you can do after the fact to get you even closer.

   As Kim and Alan said, ask questions, we are here to help.

Mike

 

Offline Vincent Corwell

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Re: PUTTING A SYSTEM TOGHETHER
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2007, 01:47:30 AM »
My deepest thanks to
Alan , Mike & Kim
I have a clearer path to follow now
when I build the next electric stunter
( before year end ) I will post all
of my own findings here
Thanks again

Vincent


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