News:



  • June 15, 2025, 01:20:19 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???  (Read 2113 times)

Offline Dennis_Bieber

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« on: March 23, 2012, 08:13:25 PM »
  I'm flying with a Pheonix 45,Current limit at  VERY Sensitive.   E-flight power 10   Zippy 3s 4000 battery    Last week I had an episode:  Trying an APC12x6P for a short one minuite flight,the landing gear retracted as my helper released the airplane.  The prop instantly ground down to 8" . Sliding on the bottom of the fuse the airplane made a left turn and came in at me. About 10 feet from me made a left and went to the edge of the asphault circle and finally stopped. It had wrapped about 15' of my .015 lines behind the spinner and thats what finally stopped it. I was under the impression that a prop strike in the grass would shut a motor down on Very Sensitive setting.??  ????

Offline John Cralley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1236
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2012, 10:47:30 AM »
< I was under the impression that a prop strike in the grass would shut a motor down on Very Sensitive setting.?? >

Well, now you know that is not always true!!   n1

I have had an inverted "touch and go" where both blades of the prop were sheared and the motor continued to run (with just the hub) until the timer button was touched. Sensitive setting or not things can go wrong and your ESC may not save the day.  y1
John Cralley
Scratch Built - Often Re-kitted!!!
AMA 52183
Central Illinois

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12892
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2012, 11:09:41 AM »
I don't have any mileage on the super-zoot Castle ESCs (I'm a tight-wad).  But part of my living is designing similar circuits for various purposes.

It sounds like the prop didn't stop altogether, but rather kept going at a pretty good clip while the airplane bounced along on the prop.  This actually wouldn't "ask" terribly much more current from the motor than a normal "accelerate to speed" event, particularly after the prop diameter was reduced somewhat.  So any excess current drag could well have been small, and may well have stayed below the current limit's radar.

Really, these ESC's need to be equipped with microphones, and speech recognition software tuned to the phrase "Oh sh*t!!!".
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Keith Renecle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 907
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2012, 10:42:17 PM »
When you design esc's it's not a simple matter to allow it to handle the huge current that we all fly with and then make it shut down when the prop strikes the ground. This is why I made my governor timer use a low rpm trigger point to stop the motor. I monitor the rpm all the time with an extra wire from any one of the motor wires, so this was a simple thing to add on. The system does need to get over the slow start up and into governor mode, so in long grass I always suggest that you get someone to hold the model until the governor kicks in.......about 2 seconds. After burning out 3 very expensive esc's, with the last one due to jamming the prop, I was determined to prevent this happening. My system allows governor with low-cost esc's, so now I can also be a "tight-wad"!

Keith R
Keith R

Offline CircuitFlyer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • www.circuitflyer.com
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2012, 08:38:46 AM »
I cringe when I read about these kind of incidents with electric power.  Does anyone use insulated lines and mount the timer in the handle?   Then the "Oh crap!" emergency switch isn't 60 feet away.  No voice recognition software required.

Please help me out if I'm missing something here.  The currents used by the timer are very low and the voltage drops due to the resistance of long lines aren't that great, so it should be possible.  Keith - your system is the best I've seen in dealing with shut down on prop strike issues, but for other emergency issues could it be mounted in the handle?  It may require 3 insulated lines, which can be done easily enough, and a small 5v battery along with the timer in the handle.  Is anyone doing this or is this type of pilot control prohibited in the rulebook?

Set me straight, please.

Paul
Paul Emmerson
Spinning electrons in circles in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada DIY Control Line Timers - www.circuitflyer.com

Offline Keith Renecle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 907
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2012, 09:04:19 AM »
Hi Paul,

Insulated lines are fine for scale or carrier models, but do not work well for stunt..........especially having 3 lines. It also complicates the handle. My system needs a motor wire pickup and this wire needs to be relatively short otherwise it could pick up added noise, so there are many negatives in using signals down the flying cables.

Keith R
Keith R

Offline CircuitFlyer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • www.circuitflyer.com
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2012, 10:49:57 AM »
Thanks Keith,

I modified my post - after I thought about the second question I posted here I realised that it in the real world it may not be bullet-proof nor fail-safe so I deleted my question.  That said, I'd still be willing to deal with a slightly more complicated handle set-up if it provided the chance to save my model or prevent injury.

Paul
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 06:26:02 AM by Silver Dart »
Paul Emmerson
Spinning electrons in circles in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada DIY Control Line Timers - www.circuitflyer.com

Offline Andrew Borgogna

  • Andy
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1188
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2012, 02:02:35 PM »
I can personally testify that Keith's system does infact shut down before damage is done to the ESC, battery or the motor.   Before using his timer I smoked all three in one accident in grass.   I have gone on to proved this a couple of more times, some people are just accident prone! y1
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline John Rist

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3043
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2012, 03:56:54 PM »
I cringe when I read about these kind of incidents with electric power.  Does anyone use insulated lines and mount the timer in the handle?   Then the "Oh crap!" emergency switch isn't 60 feet away.  No voice recognition software required.

Please help me out if I'm missing something here.  The currents used by the timer are very low and the voltage drops due to the resistance of long lines aren't that great, so it should be possible.  Keith - your system is the best I've seen in dealing with shut down on prop strike issues, but for other emergency issues could it be mounted in the handle?  It may require 3 insulated lines, which can be done easily enough, and a small 5v battery along with the timer in the handle.  Is anyone doing this or is this type of pilot control prohibited in the rulebook?

Set me straight, please.

Paul

It's east to add throttle controll with insulated lines. See http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?board=39.0

However I am not sure that it would meet the rules of stunt competion.   ???
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Dean Pappas

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1195
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2012, 10:19:23 AM »
Hi All,
Rules aren't the issue: the drag of insulated lines is death to being able to fly Stunt properly.
It really is that simple.
Hi Dennis, I hope the ship isn't too badly damaged. Yours sounds just like what happens wet: chased around the center of the circle by a plane with half a prop ... I've been there, but I was younger and faster, back then! Frangible wood props might help.

The current limit sensitivity does not change the limit current to a lower value: sensitive just means that the overcurrent event doesn't have to be as long or dramatic to cause shutdown. 
As we see in another thread, having a current limit that is too low that activates quickly and suddenly can cause the loss of a plane during the high current vertical climbs.
take care,
  Dean P.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 10:40:01 AM by Dean Pappas »
Dean Pappas

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2012, 03:56:40 PM »
It would be kinda nice to be able to use a cheap 2.4gHz. radio to do this kind of control.  Put it all in a little case on your belt, and a on/off switch for the motor.
phil Cartier

Offline CircuitFlyer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • www.circuitflyer.com
Re: Prop strike - When should the ESC shut off???
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2012, 07:17:32 PM »
If you go to the trouble of adding a radio system why not throw in a couple of servos, cut the lines and set it free. ;)

The couple of scale guy's I've seen use standard lines and just brush on a layer of urethane. Can't be that much of an increase in drag.  I've used U-Tronics on a 1/2a size plane by attaching 36AWG magnet wire to my lines and hardly noticed a difference.  It might take some experimenting but there are ways to minimise insulated line drag.

I'd be nice if Clancy and Keith got together so we could use a U-Tronics handle to control Keith's Timer in the plane.  Then you would have pilot control to start and stop, RPM governor, adjustable govenor gain and prop strike protection.

Addendum - I just spent a few minutes googling for some PWM switches or relays.  I think I just found a Summer project.  I'll try a PWM relay to replace the KR Timer slide switch.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 08:04:14 PM by Silver Dart »
Paul Emmerson
Spinning electrons in circles in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada DIY Control Line Timers - www.circuitflyer.com


Advertise Here
Tags: